Bobcat Attack - Ohio Basketball - Your chance to assert wrong in a big way.

Ohio Basketball Topic

Topic: Your chance to assert wrong in a big way.

Page: 4 of 6

giacomo

General User

Member Since: 11/20/2007

Post Count: 2,763

person

mail

giacomo

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 10:56 AM

settings_applications edit_note

I think everyone knows, or should know, that any team can beat any other team in one game. If you play 7 games, the best team should win. If they win, they can be called the best. Being the best and being a champion are two different things. You can slice it and dice it any way you want.

OhioCatFan

General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004

Location: Athens, OH

Post Count: 15,699

mail

OhioCatFan

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 1:26 PM

settings_applications edit_note

giacomo wrote:expand_more

The operational definition of best in college basketball is one and done. It's not best of seven. In college baseball it's double elimination. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept. Advance under the rules as they exist for your sport and you are better than the teams that didn't. It's a matter of playing by the rules as they are in place and winning and advancing. You'd have a better argument in FBS college football where the two supposed top teams are picked by computer and human voters. Those teams didn't really earn their right to play for the national championship in the same way that teams do in the NCAA basketball tournament. It won't be much better when they go to the four team "playoff" system.

OT: I'm for doubling the number of teams in the NCAA tournament and eliminating the conference tournaments and a 16 team FBS playoff system. Neither of those is likely to happen anytime soon, but would be the ideal, IMHO.

Last Edited: 3/30/2013 1:28:24 PM by OhioCatFan

cc-cat

General User

Member Since: 4/5/2006

Location: matthews, NC

Post Count: 4,016

person

mail

cc-cat

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 1:56 PM

settings_applications edit_note

Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more

Start now telling me that Florida Gulf Coast University should be ranked worse than #16.

It's what you do

They will finish outside the top 16. Absolutely. Positively. Guarantee it. No question about it. Exhibit A - 2012 Ohio University.

OhioCatFan

General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004

Location: Athens, OH

Post Count: 15,699

mail

OhioCatFan

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 1:59 PM

settings_applications edit_note

cc cat wrote:expand_more

Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more

Start now telling me that Florida Gulf Coast University should be ranked worse than #16.

It's what you do

They will finish outside the top 16. Absolutely. Positively. Guarantee it. No question about it. Exhibit A - 2012 Ohio University.

The key word in Monroe's post was SHOULD. You are correct, in all likelihood, that they won't be. That's a problem, IMHO.

Maddog13

General User

M13

Member Since: 12/22/2004

Location: Albuquerque, NM

Post Count: 725

person

mail

Maddog13

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 2:12 PM

settings_applications edit_note

Wichita State aside, I personally must declare Florida Gulf Coast University as the National Champions of the so-called Mid-Majors. In their case, I could actually make a strong case for them being part of the low-majors. After all, the university has only been in existence since 1997, and they have a very limited alumni association at this particular point in their development. They certainly captured the attention and energy that Ohio took into the tournament last year, and even have a Southeastern Ohio connected player in the form of Chase Fieler, who played like a Tiger on fire last night. That is a very good Florida team that FGCU played, and they gave them all they could handle and more. Hats off to those boys, and, yes, they should be considered the 16th best team in the Nation. Period.

MariettaCatFanatic

General User

Member Since: 7/6/2010

Post Count: 417

mail

MariettaCatFanatic

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 5:46 PM

settings_applications edit_note

Wow guys...I just wandered over here after taking a bit of time off of here after the Denver loss. Thought I would check if anyone was discussing next year's schedule or recruiting and I find this nugget of a thread. The NCAA Tournament does not decide who the BEST team is. Sports and basketball in general can lead to unusual upsets in a one and done enviroment. Maybe the ball bounces a particular way for a team that day, a player gets really hot, or the favored team just can't get the lid off the basket that day. That doesn't mean they're not the overall better team.

Oh, and that US-Mexico 0-0 draw was one of the most hand wringing, dramatic events I have seen this year. The average American fan sees the scoreline 0-0 on ESPN the next day and thinks to themselves "Glad I didn't see that snoozer." And yet they missed a rag tag American back line play inspired defense for 90 minutes in one of the most hostile enviroments in all of sports. You all missed a real treat.

colobobcat66

General User

C66

Member Since: 9/1/2006

Location: Watching the bobcats run outside my window., CO

Post Count: 4,744

person

mail

colobobcat66

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 6:11 PM

settings_applications edit_note

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have no quarrel with all the billions who love soccer . It's just not for everybody . I grew up following the Redlegs in the 50's so I never learned to appreciate low scoring games since the Reds had no pitching and a pretty good run producing ability. My take on this discussion is that for you who only think the tourney counts and nothing else matters, you are missing a lot of baskerball that can be enjoyed. Sorry you don't see it that way. We're different and that should be ok.

OhioCatFan

General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004

Location: Athens, OH

Post Count: 15,699

mail

OhioCatFan

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 6:46 PM

settings_applications edit_note

I never said, and don't believe, that the tournament is the only basketball that matters. If I did, I wouldn't be a season ticket holder for 30+ years. What I do believe is that the tourney decides who is best. The winner of the NCAA tournament is, by definition, the best D-1 basketball team in the nation. Any other conclusion, IMHO, is ridiculous.

Let me give an example from another sport. Ohio was in the CWS "back in the day." It was a double-elimination tournament. We beat USC in the tournament. USC was then in the losers bracket. USC comes back and wins the CWS and the National Championship. In this case, since the rules were double rather than single elimination, OHIO can't claim to be the best team in nation even though we were the only team to beat the national champions in the tournament. If, however, it had been a single elimination tournament and we had bounced USC we could claim to be a better team than USC. It's a combination, in my mind, of results on the field (or court) and the rules that are in place to determine who advances and who goes home and at what point that happens.

Game results

Date	Game	Winner	Score	Loser	Notes
June 12	Game 1	Texas	12 - 4	Delaware
June 12	Game 2	Ohio	4 - 1	USC
June 13	Game 3	Florida State	4 - 0	Arizona
	Game 4	Dartmouth	7 - 6	Iowa State
	Game 5	USC	7 - 1	Delaware	Delaware eliminated
June 14	Game 6	Iowa State	7 - 1	Arizona	Arizona eliminated
	Game 7	Texas	7 - 2	Ohio
	Game 8	Florida State	6 - 0	Dartmouth
June 15	Game 9	Ohio	9 - 6	Iowa State	Iowa State eliminated
	Game 10	USC	6 - 1	Dartmouth	Dartmouth eliminated
	Game 11	Texas	5 - 1	Florida State
June 16	Game 12	Florida State	2 - 0	Ohio	Ohio eliminated
June 16	Game 13	USC	8 - 7 (14 innings)	Texas
June 17	Game 14	Florida State	11 - 2	Texas	Texas eliminated
June 18	Final	USC	2 - 1 (15 innings)	Florida State	USC wins CWS

cc-cat

General User

Member Since: 4/5/2006

Location: matthews, NC

Post Count: 4,016

person

mail

cc-cat

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 8:07 PM

settings_applications edit_note

OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more

cc cat wrote:expand_more

Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more

Start now telling me that Florida Gulf Coast University should be ranked worse than #16.

It's what you do

They will finish outside the top 16. Absolutely. Positively. Guarantee it. No question about it. Exhibit A - 2012 Ohio University.

The key word in Monroe's post was SHOULD. You are correct, in all likelihood, that they won't be. That's a problem, IMHO.

Actually, they should not. To date, this has been 4 different tournaments. Therefore, the 4th place team in one regional may indeed be better than, and ranked higher than a team that finishes second on another regional tournament. Ranking should not be impacted by the random assignment of a team by a committee.

colobobcat66

General User

C66

Member Since: 9/1/2006

Location: Watching the bobcats run outside my window., CO

Post Count: 4,744

person

mail

colobobcat66

mail

Posted: 3/30/2013 8:16 PM

settings_applications edit_note

OCF, not really talking to you, but there are quite a few that think that way. I have no problem with the winner being called the best=best in the tournament. If you look at the body of work as they say, not necessarily the best team. I remember NCAA football in 1983, Miami was best in that championship game- by a missed point after- probably not the best football team in the country IMHO. But again, others differ in their opinions. Frankly, these arguments are one of the things that make sports the interesting activity that it is.

JSF

General User

Member Since: 1/29/2005

Location: Houston, TX

Post Count: 6,580

mail

JSF

mail

Posted: 3/31/2013 1:14 AM

settings_applications edit_note

cc cat wrote:expand_more

Devastating reason right there.

And, again, one and done is not the operational definition of "best". The NCAA does it because it works for their business model.

OrlandoCat

General User

Member Since: 3/15/2005

Post Count: 355

person

mail

OrlandoCat

mail

Posted: 3/31/2013 2:24 PM

settings_applications edit_note

OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more

giacomo wrote:expand_more

So you think Michigan this year is better than Ohio State, even though Ohio State won the Big 10 tournament, which according to your logic, makes Ohio State the best team in the Big 10 period.

Edit to add:

Should Michigan beat Florida

Last Edited: 3/31/2013 2:26:10 PM by OrlandoCat

OhioCatFan

General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004

Location: Athens, OH

Post Count: 15,699

mail

OhioCatFan

mail

Posted: 3/31/2013 6:04 PM

settings_applications edit_note

Yes, Michigan, who won when it counted the most, is the best team in the B1G when the season ends. Go Blue!

[P.S My youngest daughter is a graduate of UMich and, therefore, I have a small rooting interest in that school.]

JSF

General User

Member Since: 1/29/2005

Location: Houston, TX

Post Count: 6,580

mail

JSF

mail

Posted: 3/31/2013 7:04 PM

settings_applications edit_note

Michigan is better than Ohio State because Ohio State lost to Wichita State while Michigan beat Florida.

You can see the logic.

OhioCatFan

General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004

Location: Athens, OH

Post Count: 15,699

mail

OhioCatFan

mail

Posted: 3/31/2013 7:16 PM

settings_applications edit_note

Comparative scores are relatively meaningless . . . you still don't get the point.

Last Edited: 3/31/2013 7:19:58 PM by OhioCatFan

JSF

General User

Member Since: 1/29/2005

Location: Houston, TX

Post Count: 6,580

mail

JSF

mail

Posted: 3/31/2013 8:08 PM

settings_applications edit_note

Wichita State is better than Duke because the Shockers "brought it when it mattered" against Ohio State while Duke "didn't bring it when it mattered" against Louisville.

You can see the logic.

Baylor's women, who are 74-2 the last two seasons and have defeated teams by an average of TWENTY SEVEN POINTS PER GAME, aren't the best team in the country because Louisville had the best shooting performance in program history. Sixteen threes. Pretty dumb of Baylor not to bring it when it mattered.

Last Edited: 3/31/2013 9:17:40 PM by JSF

bobcat2nc

General User

Member Since: 12/28/2004

Post Count: 584

person

mail

bobcat2nc

mail

Posted: 3/31/2013 9:26 PM

settings_applications edit_note

OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more

The winner of the NCAA tournament is, by definition, the best D-1 basketball team in the nation. Any other conclusion, IMHO, is ridiculous.

NO. The winner of the tournament is just the champion of the NCAA tournament. They deserve all the accolades that go with being the champion of the NCAA tournament.

But if winning the tourney makes a team #1 then how do they rank everyone after that? Assume that Louisville beats Michigan for championship then this is what rankings should look like using the "who beat who" method of ranking system (just for fun..of course I could have messed it up)

1	louisville
2	mich
3	which state
4	syracuse
5	duke
6	fla
7	osu
8	marq
9	oregon
10	kansas
11	la salle
12	indiana
13	msu
14	FGC
15	arizona
16	miami
17	memphis
18	vcu
19	iowa state
20	california
21	colo state
22	unc
23	gongzaga
24	indiana
25	creighton
26	minn
27	miss
28	butler
29	colo st
30	sdsu
31	harvard
32	illinois

JSF

General User

Member Since: 1/29/2005

Location: Houston, TX

Post Count: 6,580

mail

JSF

mail

Posted: 3/31/2013 10:18 PM

settings_applications edit_note

Andy Glockner said Duke might be the 2nd or 3rd-best team in the tournament. Eamonn Brennan speculated Duke as the 2nd-best team. Don't either of these brain geniuses know how science works?

Oh, and you want me to believe Wichita State is:
A. One of the four best teams in the country.
B. A double-digit underdog against Louisville. Really? That's how big the gap is in the top four?

Monroe Slavin

General User

Member Since: 12/21/2004

Location: Oxnard, CA

Post Count: 9,121

person

mail

Monroe Slavin

mail

Posted: 4/1/2013 3:24 AM

settings_applications edit_note

It must be wonderful to be dead-set absolutely certain that one's opinion is correct.

Generally, I'll admit that other viewpoints are possibile...as much as mine is plausible. In matter of opinion, all but the most extreme ('throw out the lowest and highest score') are plausible.

OCF hit it on the head when he cited the theory of the NCAAs. Now, I take the finish in this year-end tourney as generally the proper input in to the final rankings.

I'm amused (and a bit stunned) by those who are so 100% absolutely no-doubt-possible-at-all certain that They are correct here and I am wrong.

Infallibility must be nice.

JSF

General User

Member Since: 1/29/2005

Location: Houston, TX

Post Count: 6,580

mail

JSF

mail

Posted: 4/1/2013 7:15 AM

settings_applications edit_note

Said the man who titled this thread. Please.

OrlandoCat

General User

Member Since: 3/15/2005

Post Count: 355

person

mail

OrlandoCat

mail

Posted: 4/1/2013 9:48 AM

settings_applications edit_note

JSF wrote:expand_more

The only way to quatify 'bringing it when it matters' appears to be winning any game that falls after Selection Sunday.

Oh, and your draw or match-up doesn't matter at all, because ALL teams match up the EXACT same way against each other. I'm sure Florida prepared for Michigan the EXACT same way the prepared for FGCU because thoes teams, along with every other team in the tournament, has the EXACT same personnel and coaching style/philosophy. The teams that win just brought it when it mattered because they just wanted it more.

Edit to add:

Florida brought it when it mattered more then FGCU, but less so then Michigan, who didn't bring it as much last year - when we brought it more.

Last Edited: 4/1/2013 9:49:21 AM by OrlandoCat

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

General User

BLSS

Member Since: 7/30/2010

Post Count: 4,655

person

mail

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

mail

Posted: 4/1/2013 10:16 AM

settings_applications edit_note

Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more

In this thread you are arguing that single game results are, in fact, infallible.

Those arguing against you are presenting the idea that basketball is complex and nuanced and that results are not necessarily accurate reflections of who the better team is. They are, by definition, presenting a viewpoint that is open to ideas and additional input. In addition to NCAA tournament game results, they're willing to be swayed by other evidence and actively seek out as much of it as possible. The opinion they are presenting--and that you're steadfastly arguing against--is nothing more than an argument against the infallibility of NCAA Tournament results.

You, on the other hand ,are arguing in favor of the infallibility of the NCAA selection committee. You're saying that they're right 100% of the time. Those arguing against you are saying that's impossible.

So you might want to re-think criticizing another poster for not maintaining an open mind.

cc-cat

General User

Member Since: 4/5/2006

Location: matthews, NC

Post Count: 4,016

person

mail

cc-cat

mail

Posted: 4/1/2013 12:22 PM

settings_applications edit_note

the argument also dismisses the fact that to date there has not been one tournament - but 4 - and that all four must be all the same. Nonsense. Of course, there has been no response to this little fact.

Last Edited: 4/1/2013 12:23:18 PM by cc-cat

OhioCatFan

General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004

Location: Athens, OH

Post Count: 15,699

mail

OhioCatFan

mail

Posted: 4/1/2013 1:03 PM

settings_applications edit_note

The root of my argument is that results on the basketball court are more important than those in the court of public opinion. Some of you seem to think otherwise. I think that that approach reeks of elitism and is fundamentally unfair to the teams that win when it matters in the tournament. I didn't say anything about the NCAA selection process being infallible, It is, however, the rules by which the national championship is determined. I know there are still those in Cowtown who believe that in the early 1960s Ohio State with Lucas and the boys had the best team in America. The mere fact that that upstart school in Southwestern Ohio beat them twice -- in 1961 and '62 -- is irrelevant. That seems rather vacuous to me.

OrlandoCat

General User

Member Since: 3/15/2005

Post Count: 355

person

mail

OrlandoCat

mail

Posted: 4/1/2013 1:54 PM

settings_applications edit_note

OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more

Even though the teams that end up in the NCAA is a direct result people randomly deciding who would 'do best,' based in part of an arbitrary pre-season top 25 that is nothing more then the court of public opinion.

we're saying that yes, the results on the basketball court matter, just more then 6 games played in March.