Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Your chance to assert wrong in a big way.
Page: 3 of 6
OrlandoCat
General User
OC
Member Since: 3/15/2005
Post Count: 355
person
mail
OrlandoCat
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 2:54 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Let's review: A tournament (NCAA) is held to determine who the best team is at the end of the season


Glad you agree.

Now, Let's review:  Best team at the end of the season =/= best team period.
ClevelandCat '11
General User
Member Since: 12/8/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 436
mail
ClevelandCat '11
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 3:38 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
I knew that I could..that this would..do this.

I love the argument that 1) performance when it matters, when the whole world is watching and teams know that it's now or never, and 2) actual on court results (the same as #1 for you who can't reason) are not relevant to which team is better than other teams.

Let's try it another way for you peoples who just don't get it.  Let's say that FGCU wins it all.  Will you then not rank them #1?



I'll grant that USA victory over Russia in the Ice Miracle was somewhat an outlier here.  But the circumstances are not at all the same.  The Russkies were widely acknowledged as, and had proven for many years on the ice, that they were the best.  And, those players stayed for years.  Here we're talking about a college team in a given year--a lot different than prior or subsequent years teams.


Are you trolling, willfully ignorant or just simple? Your logic is the same as saying If Lonnie Chisenhall hits a home run off of Justin Verlander, Chisenhall is the better player because he beat Verlander. To quote Keyshawn, Cmon man!
Mark Lembright '85
General User
ML85
Member Since: 8/22/2010
Location: Highland Heights, OH
Post Count: 2,460
person
mail
Mark Lembright '85
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 3:59 PM
ColumbusCat '11 wrote:expand_more
I knew that I could..that this would..do this.

I love the argument that 1) performance when it matters, when the whole world is watching and teams know that it's now or never, and 2) actual on court results (the same as #1 for you who can't reason) are not relevant to which team is better than other teams.

Let's try it another way for you peoples who just don't get it.  Let's say that FGCU wins it all.  Will you then not rank them #1?



I'll grant that USA victory over Russia in the Ice Miracle was somewhat an outlier here.  But the circumstances are not at all the same.  The Russkies were widely acknowledged as, and had proven for many years on the ice, that they were the best.  And, those players stayed for years.  Here we're talking about a college team in a given year--a lot different than prior or subsequent years teams.


Are you trolling, willfully ignorant or just simple? Your logic is the same as saying If Lonnie Chisenhall hits a home run off of Justin Verlander, Chisenhall is the better player because he beat Verlander. To quote Keyshawn, Cmon man!


Actually the logic's not the same and that's an apples-to-oranges comparison.  Chisenhall will face Verlander 2-3 more times within that very same game and at the end of the game Verlander may have the upper hand.  In the NCAA's, it's a one-and-done scenario.  And there are just way too many teams and way too little time to have to have all 68 teams play a 3, 5 or 7 game series against their opponent.

This whole argument is an argument in semantics anyway.  OK, so if FGSU wins the NCAA's and finishes #1, who cares if they're not "the best team".  Seriously.  They're champions!  JSF's right, March Madness isn't about figuring out who "the best team" is.  It's for determining who the CHAMPION is.  It's as is some think its more important to be the "best team" than to be champion.  I could care less who the "best team" is.  My hope is that one day, Ohio is the CHAMPION and not "the best team" under that type of reasoning.  See 2010 MAC Tourney: Ohio wasn't the best team in the MAC that year but who cares?  Ohio won the Tourney anyway.  I'd much rather be champion; everything else is just superfluous.
mf279801
General User
M279801
Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Newark, DE
Post Count: 2,486
person
mail
mf279801
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 4:00 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
I suppose it's possible I misinterpreted, and your term "kickball" was not an attempt to compare soccer with a little kids game. I guess that's possible. Not likely. But possible.


My intention was to be disrespectful as hell to soccer (the sport, not the players. Professional soccer players, and most amateur ones, are orders of magnitude more athletically gifted than I). To avoid confusion, I referred to it as "European-rules kickball", as opposed to American-rules kickball (a little kids, and increasingly popular young adult's, game)

Just for curiosity's sake, how is it inaccurate to call it kickball? Isn't that what the game consists of, kicking a ball?
Last Edited: 3/29/2013 4:01:36 PM by mf279801
Robert Fox
General User
RF
Member Since: 11/17/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post Count: 2,039
person
mail
Robert Fox
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 4:41 PM
mf279801 wrote:expand_more
My intention was to be disrespectful as hell to soccer


Why? What's in it for you?
giacomo
General User
G
Member Since: 11/20/2007
Post Count: 2,763
person
mail
giacomo
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 5:17 PM
It's really the same as the old saying that women always use when dating: "he's not mister right, he mister right now".
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 5:31 PM
Diagree; the NCAA is a season ending tournament toward which all teams aspire.  It's held to determine who the best team is.  Now, I admit that is an opinion and not a fact.

But you who argue that the team which wins The Big One is not the best team have a much weaker argument.

Does every coach/player/fan/follower aspire to be considered the best team or to win the NCAA?


[Trick question since they're one and the same, of course.}


Better at contract time to argue 1)  the team that I coached won the NCAA or 2)  we didn't win the NCAA but look at the whole year and you'll see that we were the best team anyway.



40 years later and most of you still don't get the 'Follow the money' aspect.


Ten years from now, do you rap rhapsodize with your mates about that Sweet Sixteen year that we had...or the year when we went 14-2 in conference.
mf279801
General User
M279801
Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Newark, DE
Post Count: 2,486
person
mail
mf279801
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 6:20 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
My intention was to be disrespectful as hell to soccer


Why? What's in it for you?


Honestly? Its been a tiring day at work and the angst that my kickball comments have caused among soccer fans has been a nice pick-me-up. I realize that its childish, sorry for that.
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 7:08 PM
OK, I have a proposal.  Let's just not have any games next season.  We'll have our computers analyze each team in terms of the ranking of the recruits, the amount of money their head coach makes, the conference they are affiliated with, the prestige of the school, the size of the market they play in, the number of past All-Americans they've produced, and a host of other current and historical data.  Then the computers will rank all the teams.  It'll save a lot of money for athletic budgets (particularly in the non-power conferences) which can then be channeled into departments like philosophy, Western religions, and Sanskrit studies. That way everyone wins.  We know who the best teams are without having to go through messy things like actual games and tournaments and we put more money into academics.  After all, sometimes messy things happen in tournaments -- teams that are thought to be better teams lose to teams from inferior conferences, with underpaid coaches, and small fan bases.  These losing teams are actually better, as everyone knows, so it's really unfair to the subject them to the scrutiny that ensues when they have to meet the kinds of teams they've avoided all season long on the court.  It's not your actual performance that counts, it's how good you actually are according to the experts and their computers that is the crucial and essential thing to know about a team.
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 7:45 PM
It's a good point.  What does actual on-court performance have to do with anything.
Last Edited: 3/29/2013 7:48:28 PM by Monroe Slavin
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 7:53 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
OK, I have a proposal.  Let's just not have any games next season.  We'll have our computers analyze each team in terms of the ranking of the recruits, the amount of money their head coach makes, the conference they are affiliated with, the prestige of the school, the size of the market they play in, the number of past All-Americans they've produced, and a host of other current and historical data.  Then the computers will rank all the teams.  It'll save a lot of money for athletic budgets (particularly in the non-power conferences) which can then be channeled into departments like philosophy, Western religions, and Sanskrit studies. That way everyone wins.  We know who the best teams are without having to go through messy things like actual games and tournaments and we put more money into academics.  After all, sometimes messy things happen in tournaments -- teams that are thought to be better teams lose to teams from inferior conferences, with underpaid coaches, and small fan bases.  These losing teams are actually better, as everyone knows, so it's really unfair to the subject them to the scrutiny that ensues when they have to meet the kinds of teams they've avoided all season long on the court.  It's not your actual performance that counts, it's how good you actually are according to the experts and their computers that is the crucial and essential thing to know about a team.


Are you in a competition with yourself to see how stupid you can be?
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 7:58 PM
Simply to show the stupidity of others through satire, which is often over their heads.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 8:06 PM
Your satire sucked unless you were satirizing yourself. You flew over the line of satire and landed in ignorance. Nobody ever said anything about results on the court not counting. We just know enough not to throw out five months worth of data in favor of one weekend with extremely high randomness because it "counts more."
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 8:31 PM
You obviously don't know much about satire.
The Optimist
General User
Member Since: 3/16/2007
Location: CLE
Post Count: 5,611
mail
The Optimist
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 8:32 PM
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:expand_more

America doesn't have a sport where the best team wins the championship.  The NFL playoffs are a tournament.  Same with NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS, and etc.  And in college football the best team is decided by votes.


When does the best NBA team not win the title? NHL? There is a vast difference between a playoffs with a best-of-seven format and single elimination.

 

The Cleveland Cavaliers were the NBA's best team a couple times, yet have never won a championship.



God bless you, I'm a Cleveland homer, but even I would say that it only took the San Antonio Spurs the minimum 4 games to convincingly prove the CAVS were not the best team in the NBA, at least in 2007.

Coincidentally, I would argue both Cleveland and San Antonio have teams in the Top 5 best to miss out on a title when they were the best in the league.

Its all about matchups. 
Pataskala
General User
P
Member Since: 7/8/2010
Location: At least six feet away from anybody else
Post Count: 9,465
person
mail
Pataskala
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 9:08 PM
I would concede that FGCU is one of the top 12 teams left in the NCAA tourney.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 9:23 PM
OCF wrote:expand_more
You obviously don't know much about satire.


You obviously overrate yours.

The Optimist wrote:expand_more
Coincidentally, I would argue both Cleveland and San Antonio have teams in the Top 5 best to miss out on a title when they were the best in the league.


The Cavs have never been the best team in the NBA.
Last Edited: 3/29/2013 9:24:32 PM by JSF
OrlandoCat
General User
OC
Member Since: 3/15/2005
Post Count: 355
person
mail
OrlandoCat
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 10:01 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Diagree; the NCAA is a season ending tournament toward which all teams aspire.  It's held to determine who the best team is.  Now, I admit that is an opinion and not a fact.

But you who argue that the team which wins The Big One is not the best team have a much weaker argument.

Does every coach/player/fan/follower aspire to be considered the best team or to win the NCAA?


[Trick question since they're one and the same, of course.}


Better at contract time to argue 1)  the team that I coached won the NCAA or 2)  we didn't win the NCAA but look at the whole year and you'll see that we were the best team anyway.



40 years later and most of you still don't get the 'Follow the money' aspect.


Ten years from now, do you rap rhapsodize with your mates about that Sweet Sixteen year that we had...or the year when we went 14-2 in conference.


Forget following the money; follow the thread.

Nobody is arguing that winning the NCAA is not important, or should be not be the goal of the season.  What we ARE saying is the best team in the NCAA is not always the team that wins it all.  To pretend match-ups are not important shows ignorance.
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 10:11 PM
It's not just matchups.  It's team chemistry.  It's teamwork.  It's execution.  It's playing with intensity.  It's coaching.  It's synergism.  It's bringing your A game when everything is on the line. 
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 10:30 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
It's not just matchups.  It's team chemistry.  It's teamwork.  It's execution.  It's playing with intensity.  It's coaching.  It's synergism.  It's bringing your A game when everything is on the line. 


Can you say competition?
Jughead
General User
Member Since: 7/6/2010
Location: Chillicothe, OH
Post Count: 478
mail
Jughead
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 10:33 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
I would concede that FGCU is one of the top 12 teams left in the NCAA tourney.


I'd go as far as to say that FGCU is one of the top 10 teams left.
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
General User
BSNNTO
Member Since: 2/4/2005
Post Count: 3,057
person
mail
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
mail
Posted: 3/29/2013 10:48 PM
Make it stop.

Why won't someone make it stop?

Please?
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 3/30/2013 2:17 AM
JSF wrote:expand_more
OK, I have a proposal.  Let's just not have any games next season.  We'll have our computers analyze each team in terms of the ranking of the recruits, the amount of money their head coach makes, the conference they are affiliated with, the prestige of the school, the size of the market they play in, the number of past All-Americans they've produced, and a host of other current and historical data.  Then the computers will rank all the teams.  It'll save a lot of money for athletic budgets (particularly in the non-power conferences) which can then be channeled into departments like philosophy, Western religions, and Sanskrit studies. That way everyone wins.  We know who the best teams are without having to go through messy things like actual games and tournaments and we put more money into academics.  After all, sometimes messy things happen in tournaments -- teams that are thought to be better teams lose to teams from inferior conferences, with underpaid coaches, and small fan bases.  These losing teams are actually better, as everyone knows, so it's really unfair to the subject them to the scrutiny that ensues when they have to meet the kinds of teams they've avoided all season long on the court.  It's not your actual performance that counts, it's how good you actually are according to the experts and their computers that is the crucial and essential thing to know about a team.


Are you in a competition with yourself to see how stupid you can be?


Is it enjoyable to always be correct?

I hope that you are available for when the deity of your choice has a problem and needs advice.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 3/30/2013 10:07 AM
Out of mirrors?
Athens
General User
A
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,454
person
mail
Athens
mail
Posted: 3/30/2013 10:50 AM
Going back to Wichita State they are a perfect example of where the Ohio program should be which is a second weekend run in the NCAA tournament every 5 years or so. They average about 10,000 a game in men's basketball. Even a Wichita State has only made 3 NCAA appearance in 2006.
Showing Messages: 51 - 75 of 132
MAC News Links



extra small (< 576px)
small (>= 576px)
medium (>= 768px)
large (>= 992px)
x-large (>= 1200px)
xx-large (>= 1400px)