Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Two Varying Opinions
Page: 4 of 4
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 5/5/2013 5:02 PM
I have no trouble with equal rights.  I do have trouble with redefining the meaning of marriage.  I'd be for civil unions with all appropriate rights.  However, IMHO, if we legalize "gay marriage" we will also have to legalize plural marriages be they polygamy or polyandry
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 5/5/2013 7:36 PM
And you're a historian? Marriage has been redefined over and over through the millenia. This is nothing new.

And the plural marriage thing is silly. Nobody is asking for that.
BillyTheCat
General User
BTC
Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 10,802
person
mail
BillyTheCat
mail
Posted: 5/5/2013 8:08 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
And you're a historian? Marriage has been redefined over and over through the millenia. This is nothing new.

And the plural marriage thing is silly. Nobody is asking for that.


Maybe not at this moment, but you'd better check Mormon theology and Islamic law.  
Pataskala
General User
P
Member Since: 7/8/2010
Location: At least six feet away from anybody else
Post Count: 9,465
person
mail
Pataskala
mail
Posted: 5/5/2013 8:37 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I have no trouble with equal rights.  I do have trouble with redefining the meaning of marriage.  I'd be for civil unions with all appropriate rights.  However, IMHO, if we legalize "gay marriage" we will also have to legalize plural marriages be they polygamy or polyandry


We wouldn't HAVE to go that far.  The purpose of defining marriage should be to encourage family units.  Someone who is married is already part of a family unit.  It seems to me that a lot of the argument against gay marriage is economic instead of moralistic.  If gays can marry, they qualify for tax breaks available to married people, and would reduce tax revenues.  Paul Ryan is against gay marriage, but ok with gay adoption, so a moralistic argument doesn't make sense.  Also, allowing gay marriage would help reduce the number of people who don't have health insurance.  They would be able to take advantage of family plans where now they can't; if one is unemployed or has a job that doesn't offer insurance, they have to do without even though their partner may be insured at work. 
perimeterpost
General User
Member Since: 7/6/2010
Post Count: 3,165
mail
perimeterpost
mail
Posted: 5/5/2013 8:42 PM
Allowing "gay people" to marry is not redefining marriage because people are already allowed to get married regardless of their sexual orientation. There is no slippery slope to polygamy or bestiality, or pedophilia, or whatever because the criteria for a person to be eligible for marriage will not change.

Under our current laws you are eligible to enter into a legally binding marriage if you meet 3 qualifications-

1. You are a human being (snapping turtles and coffee tables need not apply)
2. You are of legal age (18 in most states)
3. You are not currently in a legally binding marriage (no polygamy, one marriage at a time)

There are no limitations based on your race, creed, color, physical ability, religion, sexual orientation, or ability to procreate. Because we live in a free society we are free to chose the person we legally marry, as long as we both meet the criteria listed above. Again, this part will not change.

However, there is currently a restriction that prevents two eligible people from choosing each other if they are of the same gender. This is wrong. Denying the freedom to chose based on gender is wrong today just as denying two people based on their race was wrong 50 years ago.

Marriage equality isn't about letting people who were previously not allowed to get married to do so, it's about giving people who are already allowed to get married the freedom to chose each other. That's it.
Last Edited: 5/5/2013 8:46:01 PM by perimeterpost
OUVan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Bethesda, MD
Post Count: 5,580
mail
OUVan
mail
Posted: 5/6/2013 10:54 AM
perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
There are no limitations based on your race, creed, color, physical ability, religion, sexual orientation, or ability to procreate. Because we live in a free society we are free to chose the person we legally marry, as long as we both meet the criteria listed above. Again, this part will not change.


That may be true for the state but your various religions have stipulations against many of those and the state should not be able to dictate who they have to marry within their institutions.  By the same token those institutions should not be able to dictate policy for everyone to follow just because it is their doctine.
DelBobcat
General User
Member Since: 8/27/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135
mail
DelBobcat
mail
Posted: 5/6/2013 11:59 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I have no trouble with equal rights.  I do have trouble with redefining the meaning of marriage.  I'd be for civil unions with all appropriate rights.  However, IMHO, if we legalize "gay marriage" we will also have to legalize plural marriages be they polygamy or polyandry


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
Bobcat Mac
General User
BM
Member Since: 2/4/2012
Location: Centerville, OH
Post Count: 140
person
mail
Bobcat Mac
mail
Posted: 5/6/2013 2:15 PM
Can we please put this thread on the "DUMPSTER FIRE"..We are all OHIO fans!!
OrlandoCat
General User
OC
Member Since: 3/15/2005
Post Count: 355
person
mail
OrlandoCat
mail
Posted: 5/6/2013 4:21 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
And you're a historian? Marriage has been redefined over and over through the millenia. This is nothing new.

And the plural marriage thing is silly. Nobody is asking for that.


Maybe not at this moment, but you'd better check Mormon theology and Islamic law.  


Mormons do not practice poligamy.  There are certrain subcultures within Mormanism that do, but they are small, few and far between, and frowned upon by the Church as a whole.

Up until the 90's certain states still had laws on the books allowing you to legal kill a Morman man on site.  The multiple wives thing wasn't a 'oh gee, I want more wives' and more of a 'help the comunity survive' deal since they were in short supply of men.
BillyTheCat
General User
BTC
Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 10,802
person
mail
BillyTheCat
mail
Posted: 5/6/2013 4:59 PM
That practice was mainstream until, and was only eliminated to gain acceptance, and the practice was made illegal with the Morrill Act in 1862 as a direct assault on the Mormon faith by also UN-recognizing the Church.
OhioStunter
General User
Member Since: 2/18/2005
Location: Chicago
Post Count: 2,516
mail
OhioStunter
mail
Posted: 5/6/2013 10:10 PM
Separate, but related question: why no big discussion on Brittney Griner? Arguably she's more recognized than Jason Collins. Where are the discussions, tweets, congrats for her? (Generally, not specific to this board)
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 5/6/2013 10:50 PM
Because openly gay women have been playing sports since Navratilova. Didn't Lisa Leslie have a kid with her partner? I guess we're used to it. Wesley Morris wrote about it a little bit back.
Last Edited: 5/6/2013 11:06:42 PM by JSF
OhioStunter
General User
Member Since: 2/18/2005
Location: Chicago
Post Count: 2,516
mail
OhioStunter
mail
Posted: 5/6/2013 11:04 PM
Louganis? Isn't it a different conversation when talking about team sports though?

Donuts
General User
D
Member Since: 9/22/2010
Post Count: 734
person
mail
Donuts
mail
Posted: 5/6/2013 11:31 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Because openly gay women have been playing sports since Navratilova. Didn't Lisa Leslie have a kid with her partner? I guess we're used to it. Wesley Morris wrote about it a little bit back.


Sheryl Swoopes I believe is who you are thinking of. She married a guy, divorced him, came out as gay, broke up with her, and then became engaged to another guy.
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 5/7/2013 9:49 AM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
There are no limitations based on your race, creed, color, physical ability, religion, sexual orientation, or ability to procreate. Because we live in a free society we are free to chose the person we legally marry, as long as we both meet the criteria listed above. Again, this part will not change.


That may be true for the state but your various religions have stipulations against many of those and the state should not be able to dictate who they have to marry within their institutions.  By the same token those institutions should not be able to dictate policy for everyone to follow just because it is their doctine.


Are you aware that marriage is a state-sanctioned institution?  This has zero to do with what any religious institution pursues.
OUVan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Bethesda, MD
Post Count: 5,580
mail
OUVan
mail
Posted: 5/7/2013 12:12 PM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Louganis? Isn't it a different conversation when talking about team sports though?



There have been plenty of athletes that have come out after their playing days are over, which is I believe what Louganis did. The first one I remember was Dave Kopay, who played in the 60s for the Redskins and came out in the 70s.  What makes Collins' admission so newsworthy is that he is still an active player.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 5/7/2013 2:21 PM
I can think of a few openly gay or not-hiding-it gay female OU athletes in recent years but no men.
Andrew Ruck
General User
Member Since: 12/22/2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 5,646
mail
Andrew Ruck
mail
Posted: 5/7/2013 4:13 PM
Well this thread was bound to open up a can of worms.  Ivo's comments were at best very poorly worded and at worst stupid, but I just want to defend the biblical/christian position on homosexuality.

I get sick of people assuming that to not condone homosexuality is to hate homosexuals.  The Bible is very very clear that we hate the sin but not the sinner.  Jesus himself lived his life out this way daily (John 8 my personal favorite).  The Bible (and I would argue creation) is also clear that homosexuality is against God's plan and yes in fact sin.  So if we are true to our God, I personally don't think we should ever condone it, but we should also never do anything but love our neighbor even in sin, and that includes accepting a gay teammate.

I think the reason homosexuality is a particularly sensitive area is in most every case, the sinner is not repenting from their sin and carrying on in it...Because they disagree that it is a sin in the first place.  I personally hate the many sins in my life and work hard to understand them and repent, while simultaneously be thankful to God for forgiving me for them.   If someone in the church kept carrying on an affair and claiming it was perfectly acceptable, that would be a problem just the same.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 5/7/2013 5:09 PM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
The Bible is very very clear that we hate the sin but not the sinner.  Jesus himself lived his life out this way daily (John 8 my personal favorite).  The Bible (and I would argue creation) is also clear that homosexuality is against God's plan and yes in fact sin.


Of course, this is merely one interpretation, albeit a popular one. I do not agree with it.
DayvidGallagher
General User
Member Since: 7/29/2010
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 206
mail
DayvidGallagher
mail
Posted: 5/7/2013 5:45 PM
Personally I couldn't care less about what some random athletes stance on homosexuality is.  I'll save that judgement for people I am actually around on a daily basis.

At the risk of derailing an endless religious debate, here is something we can all agree on and was the only significant thing I took out of this thread:

Ivo's girlfriend is super hot.  Good for him.
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 5/7/2013 5:46 PM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
Well this thread was bound to open up a can of worms.  Ivo's comments were at best very poorly worded and at worst stupid, but I just want to defend the biblical/christian position on homosexuality.

I get sick of people assuming that to not condone homosexuality is to hate homosexuals.  The Bible is very very clear that we hate the sin but not the sinner.  Jesus himself lived his life out this way daily (John 8 my personal favorite).  The Bible (and I would argue creation) is also clear that homosexuality is against God's plan and yes in fact sin.  So if we are true to our God, I personally don't think we should ever condone it, but we should also never do anything but love our neighbor even in sin, and that includes accepting a gay teammate.

I think the reason homosexuality is a particularly sensitive area is in most every case, the sinner is not repenting from their sin and carrying on in it...Because they disagree that it is a sin in the first place.  I personally hate the many sins in my life and work hard to understand them and repent, while simultaneously be thankful to God for forgiving me for them.   If someone in the church kept carrying on an affair and claiming it was perfectly acceptable, that would be a problem just the same.


Very well said, Andrew.  I agree with your every point here.  I would emphasize that in our secular society homosexuals and all other people deserve equal rights before the law.  However, from a biblical point-of-view homosexuality is a sin.  Here I should make clear that it's not having homosexual urges that is the sin, it is acting on those urges.  Though, I suppose, dwelling on those urges could be a sin just as Jesus said a man lusting after a woman could commit adultery with her in his heart.  I will restate that I do not support "gay marriage," but I do support civil unions, with all the rights pertaining to marriage before the law.  I further think that the analogies made between homosexual rights and  civil rights for African Americans and the centuries long struggle to achieve same is often a very strained one.  This is a complicated issue and there are lots of subtle nuisances that are not easily discussed on a sports board.  I believe at this point, I've said all that I want to say on this issue in this venue.  GO OHIO!
perimeterpost
General User
Member Since: 7/6/2010
Post Count: 3,165
mail
perimeterpost
mail
Posted: 5/7/2013 8:01 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Very well said, Andrew.  I agree with your every point here.  I would emphasize that in our secular society homosexuals and all other people deserve equal rights before the law.  However, from a biblical point-of-view homosexuality is a sin.  Here I should make clear that it's not having homosexual urges that is the sin, it is acting on those urges.  Though, I suppose, dwelling on those urges could be a sin just as Jesus said a man lusting after a woman could commit adultery with her in his heart.  I will restate that I do not support "gay marriage," but I do support civil unions, with all the rights pertaining to marriage before the law.  I further think that the analogies made between homosexual rights and  civil rights for African Americans and the centuries long struggle to achieve same is often a very strained one.  This is a complicated issue and there are lots of subtle nuisances that are not easily discussed on a sports board.  I believe at this point, I've said all that I want to say on this issue in this venue.  GO OHIO!


You acknowledge that all people deserve equal rights but then turn around and say you don't support equal rights for all people. I hope you can see that the issue is not your's or Ivo's religious beliefs, its not supporting equal rights for others under the law and using your beliefs to justify it.

I suggest reading a bit about Plessy v Ferguson and Brown v Board of Education, this will help clear up why denying marriage to same gendered couples but giving them Civil Unions won't fly. Separate But Equal is unconstitutional. The reason the arguments for equal rights for gays and for African Americans are the same is because the arguments against them having equal rights are the same.
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 5/7/2013 9:09 PM
Sorry I can't resist.  I must make one very last and absolutely final statement in this thread.  I have read Plessy v. Ferguson.  I've also read a good deal about Albion Tourgée, the Ohioan who was the leading attorney for Homer Plessy. I've also read Tourgée's famous novel, A Fool's Errand, about KKK violence in the South during Reconstruction.  I'm currently reading Tourgée's Invisible Empire, an exposé on the KKK.  I've also read Brown v. Board of Education.  The analogies between the issues in these cases and the question at hand are tenuous at best.  I don't know anyone who advocates civil unions who thinks homosexuals should ride in separate railroad cars, or go to separate schools, or otherwise not mix in with the general society.  

Or, let's look at an even more infamous case related to African American rights -- Dred Scott.  In that case, the chief justice of the US said that African Americans were not U.S. citizens and are "beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect." I don't know any person on either side of this debate that's saying anything roughly comparable to this in comparing the civil rights of "gays" and "straights." 

OK, I'm done.  This is my very last final post in this thread.
 

P.S. An interesting piece of trivia that I learned recently: Abraham Lincoln had a personal valet by the name of William Johnson.  When Johnson died in 1864, Lincoln paid for his burial at what became Arlington National Cemetery and according to some sources (contradicted by others) penned the one word inscription on his tombstone below his name -- "Citizen." You see, Johnson was a black man, and Lincoln would thus be making a political statement against the Dred Scott decision, which was still technically the law of the land.


 
Last Edited: 5/7/2013 10:16:11 PM by OhioCatFan
Showing Messages: 76 - 98 of 98
MAC News Links



extra small (< 576px)
small (>= 576px)
medium (>= 768px)
large (>= 992px)
x-large (>= 1200px)
xx-large (>= 1400px)