Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Mark Cuban's Plan to End One-and-Dones
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bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/3/2014 9:22 AM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
Hah!  I sure got Bornacatfan all riled up.
    I know ya think that 's your goal but that's not even close.
giacomo
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Posted: 3/3/2014 11:46 AM
This may sound cold hearted, but I don't care if these kids pass, fail, go to the NBA, NFL or work at Wendy's. Any kid that gets a scholarship also gets an opportunity. You and I have seen many young people over the years take advantage of the opportunity(me being one) and others that do not. That is life and it happens to skateboarders, tuba players, glee clubbers, etc. I will sing no sad songs for those that get the chance to go to school for free and waste it. It really isn't  "free" as they give up a lot and much hard work to represent their school. I think the money is too big and that something must give, as a scholarship today in the Big 6 conferences just doesn't cut it anymore. But, that's another topic.

The bigger issue is a school like North Carolina losing their integrity over athletic glory. The reason is money and glory. 

 
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 3/3/2014 1:43 PM
Really good thread, guys. You guys who navigate other college sites...do you see much of this quality of discussion there?
JSF
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Posted: 3/3/2014 1:58 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
This may sound cold hearted, but I don't care if these kids pass, fail, go to the NBA, NFL or work at Wendy's. Any kid that gets a scholarship also gets an opportunity. You and I have seen many young people over the years take advantage of the opportunity(me being one) and others that do not. That is life and it happens to skateboarders, tuba players, glee clubbers, etc. I will sing no sad songs for those that get the chance to go to school for free and waste it. It really isn't  "free" as they give up a lot and much hard work to represent their school. I think the money is too big and that something must give, as a scholarship today in the Big 6 conferences just doesn't cut it anymore. But, that's another topic.

Yes, on a micro level, it's really irritating and disheartening to see athletes who fail to recognize the gifts and privileges given to them. Few things, I think, are more annoying than entitlement.

On a macro level, however, it feels like a real problem to me. And it's something that needs to be addressed. On the micro level, it's a dumb kid who blew his chance. On the macro level, that's, what, hundreds or thousands more in society who aren't qualified to contribute? That's children and relatives who may depend on these people and end up on government assistance or nothing at all. I'm a silly idealist, but I want everyone to get that education. I want everyone to be prepared and have opportunity. I too am bothered when people squander their chances (I've done my share of that). I am also saddened because I don't think they truly realize what they're giving up. And in the end, we spend more resources and energy catching them up later when they figure it out.

There has to be a better way. There is a better way. My expectation of Ohio University is we never lose sight of #1. Winning is awesome. Graduating and leading a meaningful life afterwards is the goal, though.

 
Ohio69
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Posted: 3/3/2014 3:45 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Yes, on a micro level, it's really irritating and disheartening to see athletes who fail to recognize the gifts and privileges given to them. Few things, I think, are more annoying than entitlement.

On a macro level, however, it feels like a real problem to me. And it's something that needs to be addressed. On the micro level, it's a dumb kid who blew his chance. On the macro level, that's, what, hundreds or thousands more in society who aren't qualified to contribute? That's children and relatives who may depend on these people and end up on government assistance or nothing at all. I'm a silly idealist, but I want everyone to get that education. I want everyone to be prepared and have opportunity. I too am bothered when people squander their chances (I've done my share of that). I am also saddened because I don't think they truly realize what they're giving up. And in the end, we spend more resources and energy catching them up later when they figure it out.

There has to be a better way. There is a better way. My expectation of Ohio University is we never lose sight of #1. Winning is awesome. Graduating and leading a meaningful life afterwards is the goal, though.


Man, that's well said.  So JSF I'm pretty sure you are an NBA fan (Spurs, correct?).  You think Cuban's ideas can work?

Whenever I think of this discussion, I think of Jeremy Fears.... 
giacomo
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Posted: 3/3/2014 4:40 PM
JSF, I agree with you in principle. But why does everyone worry about Div 1 football and basketball players? What makes them so special? Many kids drop out in every school and I don't see any dialogue regarding them. Why can a tuba player transfer to another high school or college and then play the tuba in the band immediately, but not a basketball or football player? The numbers of Div 1 football and hoop players that don't graduate is minuscule compared to the general population. Choices are made every day. Every one of us decided to do A instead of B. Here is a good article in Bloomberg about the North Carolina scandal. They make some excellent points about the lack of ability to perform in the classroom being the beginning of all the problems.
JSF
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Posted: 3/3/2014 6:47 PM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
So JSF I'm pretty sure you are an NBA fan (Spurs, correct?).  You think Cuban's ideas can work?

Whenever I think of this discussion, I think of Jeremy Fears.... 


Yes and yes. As Cuban said, it needs fleshing out, but it's a great starting point. So many people have said a huge problem is these young adults get too much too fast. That's not as big a problem in MLB, and I think the minor leagues are a big reason why. They have to work their way up. They have to ride buses and sleep in cheap hotels. That tends to give one a great appreciation for the bigs. The NBA has a rookie symposium, but it doesn't seem to be taken that seriously. Allowing kids to turn pro instantly and give them a developmental year would really do a lot, especially if they are committed to developing them off the court. Professional athletes have demands on their time and money we can't even imagine, and there's no way you can prepare them for that in just a couple weeks. Get Magic Johnson in there to talk to them about sexual health. Get Antoine Walker in there to talk about spending money wisely. Bring in someone to talk about how to handle the media. Make them accountable to these things. And yes, let them make some mistakes and learn that way without the HUGE spotlight of the NBA on them. So many of these young adults don't have the right people in their ear. At the very least, it's worth a try. And the benefits would be seen on the court, too. And maybe, just maybe, teaching someone about financial responsibility will lead to a player or two not just simply chasing the biggest contract because they have massive bills to pay. They might instead pick the best basketball fit for them.

Jeremy seems to have done OK for himself, but one can't help but wonder how much he left on the table.

giacomo wrote:expand_more
But why does everyone worry about Div 1 football and basketball players? What makes them so special?


The attention. The money.

Quote:expand_more
Many kids drop out in every school and I don't see any dialogue regarding them.


That's an uncomfortable subject for schools. Why aren't their students succeeding? Retention rates are a big statistic for colleges, but it's hard to look in the mirror and admit why a rather sizeable chuck of your students can't cut it.

Quote:expand_more
Why can a tuba player transfer to another high school or college and then play the tuba in the band immediately, but not a basketball or football player?


Worthy conversation topic, but that's for another thread.
Last Edited: 3/3/2014 6:47:27 PM by JSF
Good cat Good cat
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Posted: 3/3/2014 10:02 PM
Quote:expand_more
I don't know if it is still the standard protocol here, but when I was a freshman here in 1998 we had to take (going by memory here) INCO 103, which was public speaking.

As for the rules and "age discrimination," a large part of me can't understand why a business can't have a standard for work qualification.  I'm obviously not a legal expert, but if a company has an educational requirement, is that discrimination against those who do not have that education?  The NBA is a business, if they would require a player be 20-21 years old (or whatever standard that may be) I struggle to see how that is unfairly treating someone.  It is their business, is it not?  If I apply for a job and don't get an interview, it's not automatically discrimination against me.  If I don't meet the standards, I don't get in.  Why does the NBA have to be different?


Wait for it.......tick tock, tick tock.....
RSBobcat
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Posted: 3/3/2014 11:13 PM
Good cat Good cat wrote:expand_more
I don't know if it is still the standard protocol here, but when I was a freshman here in 1998 we had to take (going by memory here) INCO 103, which was public speaking.

As for the rules and "age discrimination," a large part of me can't understand why a business can't have a standard for work qualification.  I'm obviously not a legal expert, but if a company has an educational requirement, is that discrimination against those who do not have that education?  The NBA is a business, if they would require a player be 20-21 years old (or whatever standard that may be) I struggle to see how that is unfairly treating someone.  It is their business, is it not?  If I apply for a job and don't get an interview, it's not automatically discrimination against me.  If I don't meet the standards, I don't get in.  Why does the NBA have to be different?


Wait for it.......tick tock, tick tock.....

It's pretty clear in the law:

www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm

 





 
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/4/2014 9:05 AM
Mike and Mike had jeff Van Gundy on this am addressing the situation. Podcast is not up yet.

Van Gundy made the case that kids should not have to choose between "playing in Maine in front of a few thousand folks and the chance to play in Allen Feildhouse." then talked about how for some athletes playing in the D league " would be a substantial pay cut"

That was bad enough but hen he went an sntirely different direction.

"the colleges should recognize that there is a problem with calling them student athletes and should make a track for professional athletes that has life skills courses. They don't really want to be there for academics but they should not be denied the opportunity to hang with kids their own age. Maybe there should be a track for these professional athletes put in place that does not require them to go to class or choose classes to be a plumber or something....

This totally floored me....it is an NBA problem....it is not a collegiate problem. The onus needs to be on the league and the president of the Universities.....while they may be smart in establishing a life skills track for those who desire Accounting./Biz Law/ Communications and the like should not have the NBA folk telling them they need to quit with the sham that is the current "student athlete " model and "just figure out how to get them into a course of study that puts them in school to play ball" with essentially no academic requirements.

I hope the podcast gets up there and I can relisten to it in it's entirety. Truly hope Van Gundy's view is not widely held and that folk in the NBA admin and NCAA presidents at least recognize that the one and done is a response to the NBA /NBA players union spawned situation and NOT the brain child of the NCAA.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/5/2014 8:58 AM
and the fallout from Van Gundy

Paul Hewitt and Izzo on the show today countering Van Gundy's comments and educating the fanbase regarding the rule being the NBA's and discussing their view of how ludicrous it is to change a system of education for the 9 individuals who were one and done last year.

Fascinating.

I do not know how to find a podcast link to Mike and Mike. Dakich...easy ...Mike and Mike ...not so easy.

FWIW...Dakich has long callled college basketball players "coddled" and such.....
JSF
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Posted: 3/5/2014 10:12 AM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
and the fallout from Van Gundy

Paul Hewitt and Izzo on the show today countering Van Gundy's comments and educating the fanbase regarding the rule being the NBA's and discussing their view of how ludicrous it is to change a system of education for the 9 individuals who were one and done last year.

Yes, we know there were 9 one-and-doners. But what about from schools other than Kentucky?

(rimshot)

But seriously. I'm surprised how low that number is. I imagine it will go up this year. Seems to be a lot of really good freshmen.

 
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/5/2014 1:45 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more

But seriously. I'm surprised how low that number is. I imagine it will go up this year. Seems to be a lot of really good freshmen.

 

So lets say all 30 teams use 2 rounds of picks for one and doners. Are you  going to change the rules of the NCAA and it's 351 member schools playing basketball this year? Math is funny in that way. Year to year the number is less than 10 and has not wildly varied over the years (as did not the number of kids coming out of HS. You may have a feel that there are a number of good frosh but the numbers do not give support over the years for large variations. That 's OK though let's say there is a year where the entire draft is made up of one and doners. What is the best take on that situation? Does a course of study that provides for , Like Van Gundy says, a class for professional athletes that is not academic in nature and caters to the fact that they do not want to be there anyway but need life skills and place to be seen in front a crowd bigger than the one in MAine or any other D league city make sense to anyone who values their own diploma if it means winning more games? 


Permitting a special course of study for all 60 " professional track" athletes that make up those one and doners in that exceptional year of athletes I would think that would be like nails on a chalkboard for most faculty senates and educators everywhere. (not sure football would not want the same program in place).....Van Gundy crossed into the twilight zone on this one.

 
JSF
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Posted: 3/5/2014 10:52 PM
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/5/2014 11:34 PM
so he is in line with a consensus of folks.....go straight out of HS or stay for 3 years. Sounds plausible. Those 9 players a year would just not have to feign going to class. 

What do you think is more of a problem ..... a `19 year old on the road on a ball club and living in an apartment or house or a kid with no desire to be in school on a college campus with thousands of adoring fans and peers and access to the parties, privileges and illegalities that are close at hand 24/7 to tempt him. Interesting thought. 

Any idea what Browns cumulative APR would look like over the course of his college coaching career? How many guys actually finished with a degree?  

Sounds like he has weighed in with some opinions that are fairly well thought out and widely held

 
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Posted: 3/6/2014 6:33 PM
No one should have special treatment or extra rules imposed on them. If a tuba player wants to go to school and play the tuba at 18, then quits for a year to try and play professionally, fails and goes back to school two years later, he can play in the band for his school. If he wants to transfer and play the tuba, he can. The NBA and NFL want these rules to save themselves from themselves. If a kid is 18 and somebody want to pay him, he should be able to be paid. If he is not ready and they make a mistake, the kid goes to plan B, which is whatever the hell he wants and can figure out for himself. The coach can quit and coach the next year, so should the kid. It's all a big hypocrisy.
JSF
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Posted: 3/6/2014 9:32 PM
You do realize there's nothing to stop an 18-year-old from going professional.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/7/2014 3:13 PM
Interesting to see that some of them make the full circle. Got a kick out of Bonzi's post today on FB. Not one and done but he came out early and is trying to finish the degree post NBA. Obviously not set for life withthe millions he burned through during his time in the league. 


Goodmorning FB, I'm currently finishing my last two classes in pursuit of my degree and I'm struggling with Math 125 if anyone wants to finish this last half of the semester for me please inbox me lol. I'm laughing but kinda serious!!!! Geez school is tougher than I remember.


Looks like several replies offer help ....maybe he needs to call Coach Ray to figure out who did the work the first time through.LOL
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Posted: 3/7/2014 3:42 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
No one should have special treatment or extra rules imposed on them. If a tuba player wants to go to school and play the tuba at 18, then quits for a year to try and play professionally, fails and goes back to school two years later, he can play in the band for his school. If he wants to transfer and play the tuba, he can. The NBA and NFL want these rules to save themselves from themselves. If a kid is 18 and somebody want to pay him, he should be able to be paid. If he is not ready and they make a mistake, the kid goes to plan B, which is whatever the hell he wants and can figure out for himself. The coach can quit and coach the next year, so should the kid. It's all a big hypocrisy.

And what happens when that player is named Tom Tupa?



(Bonus points if anyone knows what he is the first at doing in the NFL)

 
giacomo
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Posted: 3/7/2014 6:01 PM
JSF, you're right. You can turn pro at 18, just not in the NBA or NFL.
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Posted: 3/8/2014 2:34 PM
Not sure if this is legal but here's a simple solution to the squandering the riches (big contract cash and all gone in a few years):  Mandate putting some large percentage of the cash  in a trust that the ath-a-lete cannot access until he or she turns 30.  (re the first contract signed by those who leave early)
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Posted: 3/12/2014 3:12 AM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
I do not know how to find a podcast link to Mike and Mike. Dakich...easy ...Mike and Mike ...not so easy.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/podcast/archive?id=24...

Good discussion in here.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/12/2014 7:51 AM
anorris wrote:expand_more
I do not know how to find a podcast link to Mike and Mike. Dakich...easy ...Mike and Mike ...not so easy.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/podcast/archive?id=24...

Good discussion in here.


Thanks 3/4 qnd 3/5 with Van Gundy and Paul Hewitt .....thanks a lot Norris. I need to bookmark this somewhere.
Ohio69
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Posted: 3/12/2014 8:34 AM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
No one should have special treatment or extra rules imposed on them. If a tuba player wants to go to school and play the tuba at 18, then quits for a year to try and play professionally, fails and goes back to school two years later, he can play in the band for his school. If he wants to transfer and play the tuba, he can. The NBA and NFL want these rules to save themselves from themselves. If a kid is 18 and somebody want to pay him, he should be able to be paid. If he is not ready and they make a mistake, the kid goes to plan B, which is whatever the hell he wants and can figure out for himself. The coach can quit and coach the next year, so should the kid. It's all a big hypocrisy.


Everyone on all these podcasts and interviews and etc. thinks they have the best interest of the young athlete in mind. 

But, Giacomo is the only one who actually does. 

As a country, we (including me) sure like taking advantage of 18-22 year olds with top notch basketball, football, and baseball skills.  My entertainment is more important than the choices they have in life.  You want to try out pro sports?  Better make up your mind before college or you have to leave the country to find some place to play.  Because, you know, I need Ohio and Uconn to be good at basketball.  And, I need a rule to stop the Celtics from making poor draft decisions.  Good luck young man.
Last Edited: 3/12/2014 8:38:32 AM by Ohio69
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Posted: 3/12/2014 9:33 AM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
Everyone on all these podcasts and interviews and etc. thinks they have the best interest of the young athlete in mind. 

You know this and what they are saying because you actually took the time to listen to what they are saying or you just threw that out there as a broad statement?

For the record I have consistently been way in favor of them being able to go straight out of HS and do not feel they are an oppressed class that needs to have a safety net. 


 
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