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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: What does this mean for conferences like the MAC?
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OUVan
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Posted: 8/15/2014 1:45 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Here's an idea for a consolation prize for the Group of 5:  what about allowing guys to transfer away from Power 5 schools to Group of 5 schools without having to sit out a year (like the current FCS schools)?  That way, schools like Ohio could still end up getting good players who for some reason don't work out at a Power 5 school. 


The only worry I would have is that they may say "Fine, then we'll do the same thing" and the Group of 5 then essentially will serve as feeder schools for the big boys. A DJ Cooper may end up leaving Ohio after one or two years.


It would be an agreement where players would have to sit out if moving up but wouldn't have to sit out if moving down.  A consolation prize of sorts.  Top FCS programs have been living off that for years. 


Why would the big boys agree to that? 
bornacatfan
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Posted: 8/15/2014 1:57 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
Here's an idea for a consolation prize for the Group of 5:  what about allowing guys to transfer away from Power 5 schools to Group of 5 schools without having to sit out a year (like the current FCS schools)?  That way, schools like Ohio could still end up getting good players who for some reason don't work out at a Power 5 school. 


The only worry I would have is that they may say "Fine, then we'll do the same thing" and the Group of 5 then essentially will serve as feeder schools for the big boys. A DJ Cooper may end up leaving Ohio after one or two years.


Interesting discussion on Power 5 boards. Similar on NU, Indiana et al. 

Can;968611 wrote:expand_more
I think this is going to affect the bottom half conference teams much more than the top half.  At any given time, the best teams tend to have an advantage recruiting the best players.  However, the bottom teams in a given conference can be at a disadvantage to teams at the top of lesser conferences.  For exmple, in IL NIU was almost certainly getting some recruits ahead of IL simply because their team was at the top of the conference, and IL was near the bottom.  Now, if all these rules go through, you go to IL you parents get their expenses paid to watch games, you get a stipend for cost of living.  If you choose NIU you are really leaving a lot of money on the table, unless you live right on NIU's doorstep. We will see a big upgrade in big five bottom tier recruiting/compentition.  THis single thing will also make games in these conferences much more competitive.  Frankly, all they are really doing is the same thing they did when they split football into IA and IAA.  A bunch of teams/conferences tried to move up to IA that simply were not able to compete effectively.  However, some teams at the bottom of big 5 conferences (can you say Mississippi) should become much more competitive than teams that were once equally talented.  I have to wonder if we will see  more coaches move up the ranks of schools within the big five or if hiring new coaches will continue as it has for decades.


 
Kams Bathroom;968630 wrote:expand_more
That seems fine in theory, but since when are players not taking Power Five offers? I'm sure you could find recruits in the database that went to the MAC with Illinois offers, but I cannot remember a single guy we actually wanted spurning us for NIU or any other non-major conference school.
 
And that's largely the point here. To the extent people are concerned this is going to create an impassable gulf between the Power Five and the rest of FBS, look around you folks, that gulf exists right now.


And this fellow broaches the transferring TO a bigger school as a kid blows up

 
Can;968857 wrote:expand_more
But there are still a lot of 3 stars who end up at Mac schools or what have you because they will start.  I mean look at the first round draft pick by the Chiefs last year, he was a lineman from a Mac School. 
 
One thing I had not thought about until just now, of those Mac school players who might not otherwise transfer prior to Jr year, may do so now if they have made big progress. 
 
Here are some examples of players at non-power conferences in the 2015 recruiting class whom have committed to non-power conference schools
 
4 star Brett Rypien QB (offers from AZST, COST, IL, ID, MS ST, OR ST, WA, WA St.
 
3 star Rashard Causey (offers from Purdue, ARK, Cincy, Clemson, IN, MI, MS St, NE, Notre Dame, Penn St, Pitt, Rutgers, TN, UCLA, WI (and others)
 
3 star Tarrcik Thomas (offers from MS ST, GA Tech, Cincy)
 
3 star Ray Rudolf (#5 JC Def Tackle in Texas)


I have no opinion on how all this affect the landscape of Division 1 but I can assure this will make things bigger for the haves and change the face of the situation for the have nots.......and a whole lot of kids will be outside the educational system without scholarships than before. while the kids who are stars are going to laughin all the way to the bank. The net effect on education of all who are relying on a scholly to get them to school whether they are white , black, green, purple, olympic sport, money sport is that many more will be on the outside looking in and there will be a greater % with educational debts. 

I will go one further.....i predict that the stars who benefit the most from this will also be the ones who squander the opportunities handed to htem on a silver platter and the parents/handlers who will be beneficiaries of this will be the most abusive and demanding folks you will have ever met. There are a lot more "my baby's the best thing since michael jordan" than there are Clark Kelloggs in AAU gyms across this country. 
 





 
GoCats105
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Posted: 8/15/2014 2:57 PM
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catfan28 wrote:expand_more
There are still some roadblocks to all of the changes on the table. Title IX for one. I'm not sure schools could dump women's sports to fund a bigger version of men's hoops and football. Are the new "stipends" taxable? Does that make student-athletes employees? Workers compensation, etc.

One of the biggest things Walter Byers ever did was create the term "student athlete" so schools could avoid workers compensation insurance and all the liabilities associated with having employees. 


I think some power 5 schools see this as a way to kick the women's/non-revenue sports to the curb. But legally, I don't think that can happen.

To those that say college sports is a "business" - the presence of these sports speaks to the contrary. In no free market enterprise would these sports exist in the manner that they do. So, IMO, there must be more to this whole thing than money (gasp!). Just not sure what the next move is from the power conferences, but I doubt it will be in the interest of the wrestling or field hockey student-athletes.


Of course right now, legally, that can't happen. But if the football programs break away from the school and form quasi minor leagues for the NFL, which are then sponsored by the school, it's a whole new ballgame. Then the school is paying for it as a marketing ploy for the university. They wouldn't be breaking the rules of Title IX. The football team would be getting all of the benefits they have now: money, school and alumni affiliation, rule-making, etc. without the restrictions of (a) the NCAA - which they just essentially got rid of - or (b)  Title IX.

Granted, that's an extreme that will most likely never happen. It would be interesting to see what the NCAA would do about that. They can't file a countersuit pleading anti-trust violations because they just lost in this most recent case regarding that very thing. The court would tell them," hey you still have schools that aren't in the Power 5, make money off of them."
Last Edited: 8/15/2014 3:00:54 PM by GoCats105
giacomo
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Posted: 8/18/2014 12:15 PM
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Good points about the bottom half of the power 5 improving in the new landscape at the expense of top tier MAC type programs. I still think in that scenario we are just like a DII program in football with waning interest from the community and students.
GoCats105
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Posted: 8/18/2014 12:23 PM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
Good points about the bottom half of the power 5 improving in the new landscape at the expense of top tier MAC type programs. I still think in that scenario we are just like a DII program in football with waning interest from the community and students.


But the attendance and ticket sales has shown otherwise.
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Posted: 8/18/2014 3:35 PM
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That's true for now. I hope it doesn't happen this way, but in my opinion, once the reality sets in that we don't play in the same league with the big boys and they start getting all the talent, our program gets devalued in the eyes of the students and local fan base.

Right now, programs like ours are getting a small share of bigger talent and we can compete and beat these teams when we get the chance, though it's infrequent. Now if they won't play us and there is this big divide in status and perception, we have something less than we have now.

 
colobobcat66
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:05 PM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
That's true for now. I hope it doesn't happen this way, but in my opinion, once the reality sets in that we don't play in the same league with the big boys and they start getting all the talent, our program gets devalued in the eyes of the students and local fan base.

Right now, programs like ours are getting a small share of bigger talent and we can compete and beat these teams when we get the chance, though it's infrequent. Now if they won't play us and there is this big divide in status and perception, we have something less than we have now.

I don't understand why the talent level is going to change much unless the power 5 increases their number of scholarships or there are frequent transfers of the better players like some are suggesting. Otherwise we will still be getting the same guys that the big boys don't want or have room for in their rosters.

As far as playing those guys, you may be right in the long term. I don't see that happening in the next few years, but eventually if it does, there will probably be a drop off in interest.
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Posted: 8/19/2014 10:32 AM
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That's true. It will take a few years after the changes are implemented to see how it plays out. I saw a blurb this morning that the MAC signed a new 13 year extension with ESPN giving them exclusive broadcast rights. Maybe they figure the new frontier differently.
GoCats105
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Posted: 8/19/2014 10:46 AM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
That's true for now. I hope it doesn't happen this way, but in my opinion, once the reality sets in that we don't play in the same league with the big boys and they start getting all the talent, our program gets devalued in the eyes of the students and local fan base.

Right now, programs like ours are getting a small share of bigger talent and we can compete and beat these teams when we get the chance, though it's infrequent. Now if they won't play us and there is this big divide in status and perception, we have something less than we have now.

I don't understand why the talent level is going to change much unless the power 5 increases their number of scholarships or there are frequent transfers of the better players like some are suggesting. Otherwise we will still be getting the same guys that the big boys don't want or have room for in their rosters.

As far as playing those guys, you may be right in the long term. I don't see that happening in the next few years, but eventually if it does, there will probably be a drop off in interest.


So how does Mount Union stay so popular? Winning. As long as Ohio keeps winning in basketball and football, I don't think affiliation will matter as much as you think. The casual fan wants to be entertained. Winning teams provide entertainment, regardless of the division they are in. The interest may drop off from die-hard college fans who only want to watch top-level competition, but that's not what Ohio gets now anyway other than the occasional upset in football or NCAA Tournament run in basketball. The athletes will still come to Ohio and provide something to the students and general public.
giacomo
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Posted: 8/19/2014 12:32 PM
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Mt. Union is unique. They have always been DIII and they have a chance to win a national championship in that system. And they've won a boatload of championships. Their stadium seats 5600- not impossible to fill. I don't know the whole story, but I'm guessing they played in a much smaller venue until recently. We would be dropping down a peg. Now if we were playing in a new system where we could compete for a national championship and actually challenged for it most years, like Mt. Union, interest would be high. Youngstown State did it when Tressel was there, but their metro area is larger. We still have a nice product to sell.
OU_Country
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Posted: 8/19/2014 12:54 PM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
That's true. It will take a few years after the changes are implemented to see how it plays out. I saw a blurb this morning that the MAC signed a new 13 year extension with ESPN giving them exclusive broadcast rights. Maybe they figure the new frontier differently.


Depending on how easy it is for ESPN to back out of that, I think you can read a little into that contract.  ESPN isn't signing this deal without the confidence that this is still going to be relevant programming unless they can get out of it if things change even more drastically in the 'power 5' control of football.
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Posted: 8/19/2014 3:38 PM
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I agree you have to follow the money. Maybe somebody, ESPN, CBS, ABC, gets shut out of some or all of the power 5 programming. There is still a lot of bandwidth to schedule sports.
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