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Topic: What does this mean for conferences like the MAC?
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giacomo
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Posted: 8/11/2014 11:34 AM
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http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-08-11/inside-ob...

With the changes that are coming with the NCAA and power conferences, it may mean we drop a level or two. We would either have to spend more money and possibly remove all non-revenue sports, or go to a D2 or D3 model. Maybe the MAC and it's kissing cousins break off and do their own thing.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 8/11/2014 11:41 AM
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Mike Golic was on with the Commish of he Big 12. Golic daughter is an ND swimmer and the COmmish is part of the Olympic committee so they both have some dealings with the no revenue sports. The commish talked at length about the power 5 conferences not being affected but the next 5 and lesser conferences would be heavily affected and would look first to cut sports to fund football and basketball. He also said outside the GI bill the athletic scholarships are the second biggest program getting kids to school and the primary program that turns out first gen college grads within families with many more of those coming in Olympic sports than foot and basketball. .
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Posted: 8/11/2014 3:27 PM
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Paul Chryst, Pitt's head football coach, was quoted in this mornings paper as saying he would be on board for only playing teams from the 5 power conferences if that's the way it's going to be. Imagine our schedules without any of those teams.
JSF
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Posted: 8/11/2014 4:38 PM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
Imagine our schedules without any of those teams.


I thought we already scheduled like that rule was in place. Zing!
Last Edited: 8/11/2014 4:38:44 PM by JSF
giacomo
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Posted: 8/11/2014 5:11 PM
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Touche, JSF. I have lobbied for tougher schedules in the past. But if this becomes a two tiered system where the big boys take their toys and play by themselves, we are someplace other than where we are now. The NCAA basketball tourney might be in jeopardy. Football may be the first shoe to fall, as they don't have the same set up. March Madness is not mad without the upset possibilities, so It will interesting how it plays out.
OU_Country
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Posted: 8/12/2014 9:11 AM
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bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
Mike Golic was on with the Commish of he Big 12. Golic daughter is an ND swimmer and the COmmish is part of the Olympic committee so they both have some dealings with the no revenue sports. The commish talked at length about the power 5 conferences not being affected but the next 5 and lesser conferences would be heavily affected and would look first to cut sports to fund football and basketball. He also said outside the GI bill the athletic scholarships are the second biggest program getting kids to school and the primary program that turns out first gen college grads within families with many more of those coming in Olympic sports than foot and basketball. .


But then you have the problem of Title 9 coming into play.  Do conferences like the MAC just cut everything besides football & basketball then?  This is where college football, outside of the "Power 5" (I nearly get ill when I type that) essentially dies if this continues.  I hope someone is smart enough to make sure this nonsense doesn't happen to basketball.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 8/12/2014 9:33 AM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
Touche, JSF. I have lobbied for tougher schedules in the past. But if this becomes a two tiered system where the big boys take their toys and play by themselves, we are someplace other than where we are now. The NCAA basketball tourney might be in jeopardy. Football may be the first shoe to fall, as they don't have the same set up. March Madness is not mad without the upset possibilities, so It will interesting how it plays out.


The NCAA knows what they have in March Madness. Even they're not stupid enough to go messing with that.

But NCAA Football is officially a 3 division league now. We're no longer eligible for the national championship, and really have no clear goal going into any given season. FCS teams have a tournament, power conference teams have a 4 team playoff, and Ohio has a bowl game in Detroit.

With this new system in place--particularly if the power conferences opt not to schedule MAC level schools--it's time to very, very seriously consider a move to FCS in football and a reallocation of football spending to basketball. Frankly, we screwed up by not seeing the writing on the wall a decade ago and it's probably too late.
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Posted: 8/12/2014 10:06 AM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
Touche, JSF. I have lobbied for tougher schedules in the past. But if this becomes a two tiered system where the big boys take their toys and play by themselves, we are someplace other than where we are now. The NCAA basketball tourney might be in jeopardy. Football may be the first shoe to fall, as they don't have the same set up. March Madness is not mad without the upset possibilities, so It will interesting how it plays out.


The NCAA knows what they have in March Madness. Even they're not stupid enough to go messing with that.

But NCAA Football is officially a 3 division league now. We're no longer eligible for the national championship, and really have no clear goal going into any given season. FCS teams have a tournament, power conference teams have a 4 team playoff, and Ohio has a bowl game in Detroit.

With this new system in place--particularly if the power conferences opt not to schedule MAC level schools--it's time to very, very seriously consider a move to FCS in football and a reallocation of football spending to basketball. Frankly, we screwed up by not seeing the writing on the wall a decade ago and it's probably too late.


What's the point in moving to FCS in football if we are pretty much in a different league/division already? Better question: what's stopping the schools outside the "Power 5" from starting their own national championship-type playoff? The NCAA could totally implement that without blinking.
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Posted: 8/12/2014 12:16 PM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Touche, JSF. I have lobbied for tougher schedules in the past. But if this becomes a two tiered system where the big boys take their toys and play by themselves, we are someplace other than where we are now. The NCAA basketball tourney might be in jeopardy. Football may be the first shoe to fall, as they don't have the same set up. March Madness is not mad without the upset possibilities, so It will interesting how it plays out.


The NCAA knows what they have in March Madness. Even they're not stupid enough to go messing with that.

But NCAA Football is officially a 3 division league now. We're no longer eligible for the national championship, and really have no clear goal going into any given season. FCS teams have a tournament, power conference teams have a 4 team playoff, and Ohio has a bowl game in Detroit.

With this new system in place--particularly if the power conferences opt not to schedule MAC level schools--it's time to very, very seriously consider a move to FCS in football and a reallocation of football spending to basketball. Frankly, we screwed up by not seeing the writing on the wall a decade ago and it's probably too late.


What's the point in moving to FCS in football if we are pretty much in a different league/division already? Better question: what's stopping the schools outside the "Power 5" from starting their own national championship-type playoff? The NCAA could totally implement that without blinking.
I really like that idea and I think that it would have some merit. The games can't have worse ratings than some of the bowl games. And there's actually something to play for -- win or go home. 

 
Alan Swank
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Posted: 8/12/2014 12:24 PM
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OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Touche, JSF. I have lobbied for tougher schedules in the past. But if this becomes a two tiered system where the big boys take their toys and play by themselves, we are someplace other than where we are now. The NCAA basketball tourney might be in jeopardy. Football may be the first shoe to fall, as they don't have the same set up. March Madness is not mad without the upset possibilities, so It will interesting how it plays out.


The NCAA knows what they have in March Madness. Even they're not stupid enough to go messing with that.

But NCAA Football is officially a 3 division league now. We're no longer eligible for the national championship, and really have no clear goal going into any given season. FCS teams have a tournament, power conference teams have a 4 team playoff, and Ohio has a bowl game in Detroit.

With this new system in place--particularly if the power conferences opt not to schedule MAC level schools--it's time to very, very seriously consider a move to FCS in football and a reallocation of football spending to basketball. Frankly, we screwed up by not seeing the writing on the wall a decade ago and it's probably too late.


What's the point in moving to FCS in football if we are pretty much in a different league/division already? Better question: what's stopping the schools outside the "Power 5" from starting their own national championship-type playoff? The NCAA could totally implement that without blinking.
I really like that idea and I think that it would have some merit. The games can't have worse ratings than some of the bowl games. And there's actually something to play for -- win or go home. 

 


This already exists - the 1 - AA national championship.  The 60 schools outside the 65 simply become a part of this and we're good to go.  As someone previously said, after playing for a MAC championship we are currently playing for nothing.
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Posted: 8/12/2014 3:40 PM
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Regarding football, even though many of you are right about "playing for nothing" after the MAC title game, we still think of ourselves as D1 and belong to the same group as the power 5. Don't we all think at some point we can compete with and beat many of those schools? I fear that that if we are segregated from them than we lose something and our Saturday afternoons will never be the same. Interest will wane and the kids will watch those games on TV more than ever.
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Posted: 8/12/2014 4:18 PM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
Regarding football, even though many of you are right about "playing for nothing" after the MAC title game, we still think of ourselves as D1 and belong to the same group as the power 5. Don't we all think at some point we can compete with and beat many of those schools? I fear that that if we are segregated from them than we lose something and our Saturday afternoons will never be the same. Interest will wane and the kids will watch those games on TV more than ever.

So, it will be like before we hired Grobe and decided to try in football?  



 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 8/12/2014 5:00 PM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Touche, JSF. I have lobbied for tougher schedules in the past. But if this becomes a two tiered system where the big boys take their toys and play by themselves, we are someplace other than where we are now. The NCAA basketball tourney might be in jeopardy. Football may be the first shoe to fall, as they don't have the same set up. March Madness is not mad without the upset possibilities, so It will interesting how it plays out.


The NCAA knows what they have in March Madness. Even they're not stupid enough to go messing with that.

But NCAA Football is officially a 3 division league now. We're no longer eligible for the national championship, and really have no clear goal going into any given season. FCS teams have a tournament, power conference teams have a 4 team playoff, and Ohio has a bowl game in Detroit.

With this new system in place--particularly if the power conferences opt not to schedule MAC level schools--it's time to very, very seriously consider a move to FCS in football and a reallocation of football spending to basketball. Frankly, we screwed up by not seeing the writing on the wall a decade ago and it's probably too late.


What's the point in moving to FCS in football if we are pretty much in a different league/division already? Better question: what's stopping the schools outside the "Power 5" from starting their own national championship-type playoff? The NCAA could totally implement that without blinking.


Why pay the extra costs we're currently paying (relative to FCS teams) to compete in a second tier tournament? Why not save money on football, reallocate that to basketball, and drop a level into an established division?
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 8/12/2014 5:01 PM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
Regarding football, even though many of you are right about "playing for nothing" after the MAC title game, we still think of ourselves as D1 and belong to the same group as the power 5. Don't we all think at some point we can compete with and beat many of those schools? I fear that that if we are segregated from them than we lose something and our Saturday afternoons will never be the same. Interest will wane and the kids will watch those games on TV more than ever.


This is a thread about the very real possibility that we LITERALLY won't be able to compete with the power 5 schools. They very well may move to big 5 only schedules. The idea that we can someday compete with them doesn't make a lot of sense when they're talking about, you know, not playing us.
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Posted: 8/12/2014 5:35 PM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
Regarding football, even though many of you are right about "playing for nothing" after the MAC title game, we still think of ourselves as D1 and belong to the same group as the power 5. Don't we all think at some point we can compete with and beat many of those schools? I fear that that if we are segregated from them than we lose something and our Saturday afternoons will never be the same. Interest will wane and the kids will watch those games on TV more than ever.

I'm more serious about football as a fan than basketball but I would be more than happy to see the power 5 leave division 1 and do their own thing. The schools in the power 5 have always had an advantage over the other conferences in money but here was always a window for a school on the rise to move up the ranks. The way its set up today in every NCAA sport its an apartheid system where you can't get a power 5 to play you at home and with the loaded scheduling it eliminates your access to championships. At Ohio's level support is a function of student pride and facilities. I would argue that power conferences would lose interest if not under the big tent. Them leaving would free up 30 spots in the NCAA tournament for quality mid majors. The power 5 can go try an NBA style playoff if they wanted in front of no fans. 

 
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Posted: 8/12/2014 8:10 PM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
Why pay the extra costs we're currently paying (relative to FCS teams) to compete in a second tier tournament? Why not save money on football, reallocate that to basketball, and drop a level into an established division?

The biggest problem with that theory is that the FCS schools tend to lose more on football than the G5 schools, which is why you seen more and more schools trying to move up to G5 from FCS (JMU, Georgia State, W. Ky, App St, UTSA, etc). Thus, moving in the opposite direction, you'd increase the losses, and decrease the exposure, so I'm not sure the point, unless you dropped even further than FCS. I think money could be saved if you drop all the way to Division II or Division III, as you can eliminate the scholarship expenses, and dramatically pare down the other expenses. Even then it would take some analysis to see if you'd be better off as the fixed costs would still be there for the facilities that already exist.
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Posted: 8/13/2014 8:42 AM
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LC, you make a good point. Without one or two "payday" road games vs big 5 competition, non big 5 balance sheets would look pretty dim.
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Posted: 8/13/2014 9:13 AM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
LC, you make a good point. Without one or two "payday" road games vs big 5 competition, non big 5 balance sheets would look pretty dim.

They already look dim even with an occasional pay game. I think that the numbers I saw about payouts for the non power conferences goes up dramatically with the new playoff system, so the big boys are throwing a few bones to the have nots to keep them alive and maybe keep the lawyers at bay.
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Posted: 8/13/2014 11:18 AM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
LC, you make a good point. Without one or two "payday" road games vs big 5 competition, non big 5 balance sheets would look pretty dim.

They already look dim even with an occasional pay game. I think that the numbers I saw about payouts for the non power conferences goes up dramatically with the new playoff system, so the big boys are throwing a few bones to the have nots to keep them alive and maybe keep the lawyers at bay.


I think this has a trickle down effect to the FCS schools.  We're paying 300k to EIU which is probably more cash than we're bringing in for that home game. There goes half of what we're probably taking home from UK. I think we can sustain, but we can't buy home games anymore. EIU won't be going to Big Ten schools, but now they can't even grab a modest payday from MAC/WAC/Sunbelt schools either.
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Posted: 8/13/2014 4:45 PM
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Here's an idea for a consolation prize for the Group of 5:  what about allowing guys to transfer away from Power 5 schools to Group of 5 schools without having to sit out a year (like the current FCS schools)?  That way, schools like Ohio could still end up getting good players who for some reason don't work out at a Power 5 school. 
OUVan
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Posted: 8/14/2014 12:28 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Here's an idea for a consolation prize for the Group of 5:  what about allowing guys to transfer away from Power 5 schools to Group of 5 schools without having to sit out a year (like the current FCS schools)?  That way, schools like Ohio could still end up getting good players who for some reason don't work out at a Power 5 school. 


The only worry I would have is that they may say "Fine, then we'll do the same thing" and the Group of 5 then essentially will serve as feeder schools for the big boys. A DJ Cooper may end up leaving Ohio after one or two years.
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Posted: 8/14/2014 4:14 PM
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There are still some roadblocks to all of the changes on the table. Title IX for one. I'm not sure schools could dump women's sports to fund a bigger version of men's hoops and football. Are the new "stipends" taxable? Does that make student-athletes employees? Workers compensation, etc.

One of the biggest things Walter Byers ever did was create the term "student athlete" so schools could avoid workers compensation insurance and all the liabilities associated with having employees. 





 




 
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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:52 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
Here's an idea for a consolation prize for the Group of 5:  what about allowing guys to transfer away from Power 5 schools to Group of 5 schools without having to sit out a year (like the current FCS schools)?  That way, schools like Ohio could still end up getting good players who for some reason don't work out at a Power 5 school. 


The only worry I would have is that they may say "Fine, then we'll do the same thing" and the Group of 5 then essentially will serve as feeder schools for the big boys. A DJ Cooper may end up leaving Ohio after one or two years.


It would be an agreement where players would have to sit out if moving up but wouldn't have to sit out if moving down.  A consolation prize of sorts.  Top FCS programs have been living off that for years. 
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Posted: 8/15/2014 12:31 AM
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giacomo wrote:expand_more
There are still some roadblocks to all of the changes on the table. Title IX for one. I'm not sure schools could dump women's sports to fund a bigger version of men's hoops and football. Are the new "stipends" taxable? Does that make student-athletes employees? Workers compensation, etc.

One of the biggest things Walter Byers ever did was create the term "student athlete" so schools could avoid workers compensation insurance and all the liabilities associated with having employees. 


I think some power 5 schools see this as a way to kick the women's/non-revenue sports to the curb. But legally, I don't think that can happen.

To those that say college sports is a "business" - the presence of these sports speaks to the contrary. In no free market enterprise would these sports exist in the manner that they do. So, IMO, there must be more to this whole thing than money (gasp!). Just not sure what the next move is from the power conferences, but I doubt it will be in the interest of the wrestling or field hockey student-athletes.
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Posted: 8/15/2014 1:30 PM
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Good points about non-revenue sports. It could take years for this to play out. If the NBA starts paying guys right out of high school to play in the NBDL, which is being discussed, that levels the playing field in our favor in basketball. Football is another story and the NFL will do no such thing, as they have it too good right now. Since football is king on campus, that's where the biggest changes will come.
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