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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: All MAC-Last-20-Years 2nd Team
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Vlad4MVP
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Posted: 11/11/2014 8:55 AM
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Hi Ohio! My friends and I run a blog that does mostly baseball, but we've been making all MAC teams from the past 20 years. You folks landed two guys on the 2nd team. First team comes out in a few days. I'll post the link here! Hope you enjoy!

http://vlad4mvp.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/all-mac-last-20-.../
JSF
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Posted: 11/11/2014 9:31 AM
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Vladimir Guerrero?
Vlad4MVP
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Posted: 11/11/2014 10:47 AM
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The one and only

This link may work better: http://vlad4mvp.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/all-mac-last-20-.../
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 11/11/2014 11:26 AM
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Making no comment on the validity or severity of DJ's alleged threat on Twitter, I found it really strange that it found its way into a short bio paragraph on him.

I was happy to see B-Hunt on the list and agree.

Very curious who the 5 are that got on ahead of Bonzi Wells. Trent (still within 20 yrs, right?), A Daniels, Wally, Newble, Boykins?

The 3rd team seems like mostly a stretch to me. Zeke Marshall & Javon McRea, as top 15 in the past 20 years, I don't know. I think there are some names being forgotten, particularly from 10+ years ago - Tamar Slay, Theron Smith, Leon Williams, Trevor Huffman, David Webber, Ben Reed, Keith Triplett, etc. come to mind.

Not an easy exercise though, there are a lot of good names.
shabamon
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Posted: 11/11/2014 12:09 PM
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Chris Kaman without question. No way Newble is one of the top 5 guys. I don't know if I would put him in my top 25.
perimeterpost
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Posted: 11/11/2014 3:09 PM
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I posted this on the MAC board- only player in NCAA history with 2000 points/900 assists/600 rebounds/300 steals, top 20 in NCAA history in both Assists and Steals, 95 career wins, MAC FOY, MAC POY, 3X MAC 1st team, MAC Tournament MVP, 2X MAC Tournament Champ, 3 NCAA Tournament wins, in the last 20 years in the MAC he ranks 5th in scoring, 1st in Assts, 2nd in Stls and 3rd in 3pts made...and that's not one of the top 5 players in the last 20 years in the MAC?


a resume like this and this WMU fan chooses to focus on a random tweet nobody remembers? can't take this list serious.
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 11/11/2014 10:32 PM
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shabamon wrote:expand_more
Chris Kaman without question. No way Newble is one of the top 5 guys. I don't know if I would put him in my top 25.
No idea how he wasn't on my list, I swear I typed his name out at one point. Yeah, has to be Trent, Kaman, Daniels, Boykins, & Wally. Who would you boot from those 5 to include DJ?
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 11/12/2014 1:25 AM
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Hmmm...Kaman on the first team makes me think that we aren't a power conference. I've seen him play to much as a pro. He's very just slightly above average. No 'wow factor' at all.
OUVan
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Posted: 11/12/2014 6:37 AM
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shabamon wrote:expand_more
No way Newble is one of the top 5 guys. I don't know if I would put him in my top 25.
Agreed. I'm not sure he even made a 2nd team All-MAC team while at Miami. I also question the validity of any list that doesn't have Leon Williams on at least the 3rd team. I would take him ten times out of ten over Zeke Marshall. Trevor Huffman is miles ahead of David Kool in my opinion as well. Another omission is Antonio Gates.
Last Edited: 11/12/2014 6:39:17 AM by OUVan
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 11/12/2014 10:09 AM
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Yeah, Antonio Gates was a pretty fair Elite Eight hoops player.
The Optimist
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Posted: 11/12/2014 10:24 AM
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perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
I posted this on the MAC board- only player in NCAA history with 2000 points/900 assists/600 rebounds/300 steals, top 20 in NCAA history in both Assists and Steals, 95 career wins, MAC FOY, MAC POY, 3X MAC 1st team, MAC Tournament MVP, 2X MAC Tournament Champ, 3 NCAA Tournament wins, in the last 20 years in the MAC he ranks 5th in scoring, 1st in Assts, 2nd in Stls and 3rd in 3pts made...and that's not one of the top 5 players in the last 20 years in the MAC?


a resume like this and this WMU fan chooses to focus on a random tweet nobody remembers? can't take this list serious.
I am curious to see DJ's college statistics line up against whoever the first team PG (assuming McDaniels) is... Obviously, McD put up some great numbers and was drafted accordingly. Just curious to see DJ's stats and accomplishments lined up next to another great. DJ ranked very high nationally and won some very big games while at Ohio.

I do believe DJ will be more fairly remembered in 20 years when some of the hatred (personal rivalries) has died down and we have some time to reflect on just how unique of a player DJ was.
OUVan
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Posted: 11/12/2014 11:59 AM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
I am curious to see DJ's college statistics line up against whoever the first team PG (assuming McDaniels) is... Obviously, McD put up some great numbers and was drafted accordingly. Just curious to see DJ's stats and accomplishments lined up next to another great. DJ ranked very high nationally and won some very big games while at Ohio.

I do believe DJ will be more fairly remembered in 20 years when some of the hatred (personal rivalries) has died down and we have some time to reflect on just how unique of a player DJ was.
DJ's postseason numbers sure stack up well against McDaniels. BG played one postseason game in McDaniels four years and never even made a MAC Final. Ohio won more NCAA tournament games in Cooper's four seasons than McDaniels won MAC tournament games.
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Posted: 11/12/2014 1:45 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
I am curious to see DJ's college statistics line up against whoever the first team PG (assuming McDaniels) is... Obviously, McD put up some great numbers and was drafted accordingly. Just curious to see DJ's stats and accomplishments lined up next to another great. DJ ranked very high nationally and won some very big games while at Ohio.

I do believe DJ will be more fairly remembered in 20 years when some of the hatred (personal rivalries) has died down and we have some time to reflect on just how unique of a player DJ was.
DJ's postseason numbers sure stack up well against McDaniels. BG played one postseason game in McDaniels four years and never even made a MAC Final. Ohio won more NCAA tournament games in Cooper's four seasons than McDaniels won MAC tournament games.
The fact that you both get Daniels' name wrong suggests that you might not know as much as you think you know about him. http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1997_draft/scout/pg.html
OUVan
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Posted: 11/12/2014 2:52 PM
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[QUOTE=Recovering Journalist]
The fact that you both get Daniels' name wrong suggests that you might not know as much as you think you know about him. http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1997_draft/scout/pg.ht...]

Or it could mean that I copied it from the previous post. I know plenty about Antonio Daniels. He had a solid pro career and a tremendous senior season at BG but in the biggest games he nor his teams won. DJ's did and he wasn't just along for the ride. He made big play after big play after big play in our three NCAA victories and his entire MAC tournament career. I agree with The Optimist in that D.J.'s legacy will be thought of more highly as time passes. Too many people don't realize how special he was.
The Optimist
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Posted: 11/12/2014 2:53 PM
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Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
I am curious to see DJ's college statistics line up against whoever the first team PG (assuming McDaniels) is... Obviously, McD put up some great numbers and was drafted accordingly. Just curious to see DJ's stats and accomplishments lined up next to another great. DJ ranked very high nationally and won some very big games while at Ohio.

I do believe DJ will be more fairly remembered in 20 years when some of the hatred (personal rivalries) has died down and we have some time to reflect on just how unique of a player DJ was.
DJ's postseason numbers sure stack up well against McDaniels. BG played one postseason game in McDaniels four years and never even made a MAC Final. Ohio won more NCAA tournament games in Cooper's four seasons than McDaniels won MAC tournament games.
The fact that you both get Daniels' name wrong suggests that you might not know as much as you think you know about him. http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1997_draft/scout/pg.ht...]

I never claimed to know a lot about him. All I said was I would be curious how his numbers and accomplishments compared to DJ's.
The little that I do know I mentioned... He put up huge numbers and was drafted high.
I was a kid when he was at BG. I remember him from the NBA.
Last Edited: 11/12/2014 2:56:13 PM by The Optimist
Recovering Journalist
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Posted: 11/12/2014 3:27 PM
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You guys would both be apoplectic if there was a kid from Ohio didn't make the first team after having a huge college career, being the highest draft pick in the MAC over the last 20 years, and having a solid NBA career. No one is saying that Coop was a bad player. I just agree that he belongs on the second team because he's behind a talent that this league sadly hasn't seen since the days of Wells, Trent and - yes - Daniels.
The Optimist
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Posted: 11/12/2014 3:40 PM
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Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
You guys would both be apoplectic if there was a kid from Ohio didn't make the first team after having a huge college career, being the highest draft pick in the MAC over the last 20 years, and having a solid NBA career. No one is saying that Coop was a bad player. I just agree that he belongs on the second team because he's behind a talent that this league sadly hasn't seen since the days of Wells, Trent and - yes - Daniels.

I made no mention of DJ on first team. I also made no negative points about Daniels. The only thing I discussed was that I would be curious to see how both their stats compare and I am absolutely still interested by that. Daniels scored a lot. DJ put up some ridiculous numbers over the course of his career. Interesting to look at both. Especially looking at team records. DJ won a lot of big games. That counts for something and long-term I think NCAA wins are remembered more than anything else.

The 2nd paragraph of my first post about DJ relates to the text "controversy" more than anything. It sounded like sour grapes to me.
Last Edited: 11/12/2014 3:48:09 PM by The Optimist
OUVan
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Posted: 11/12/2014 3:51 PM
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Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
You guys would both be apoplectic if there was a kid from Ohio didn't make the first team after having a huge college career, being the highest draft pick in the MAC over the last 20 years, and having a solid NBA career. No one is saying that Coop was a bad player. I just agree that he belongs on the second team because he's behind a talent that this league sadly hasn't seen since the days of Wells, Trent and - yes - Daniels.
What do draft status and NBA career have to do with MAC play? College is entirely different game than the pros. Antonio Daniels' pro resume blows D.J. Cooper's away (and perhaps all our players). I'll take Cooper college resume over Daniels however.
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Posted: 11/12/2014 3:55 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
I made no mention of DJ on first team. I also made no negative points about Daniels. The only thing I discussed was that I would be curious to see how both their stats compare and I am absolutely still interested by that. Daniels scored a lot. DJ put up some ridiculous numbers over the course of his career. Interesting to look at both. Especially looking at team records. DJ won a lot of big games. That counts for something and long-term I think NCAA wins are remembered more than anything else.

The 2nd paragraph of my first post about DJ relates to the text "controversy" more than anything. It sounded like sour grapes to me.
That's fair, and I agree that starting out the write-up of Cooper that way is poor form. I suppose my criticism is directed more toward the vocal critics of putting him on the second team. Lists like these naturally inspire debate, and I'm just stating my opinion. Daniels ahead of Cooper is totally correct to me - even looking at it thought green lenses.
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Posted: 11/12/2014 3:59 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
What do draft status and NBA career have to do with MAC play? College is entirely different game than the pros. Antonio Daniels' pro resume blows D.J. Cooper's away (and perhaps all our players). I'll take Cooper college resume over Daniels however.
NBA career? I'll give you that as irrelevant for this discussion. Draft status? That speaks directly to his college career, which was spectacular. We all seem to agree they were great players. I just don't agree that you can dismiss this list based on Cooper being on the second team. You can always make a case for snubs, but this isn't one of them.
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 11/12/2014 11:38 PM
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These lists end up being like the NCAA tournament...everyone screams about all the omissions but sometimes fail to talk about who they should replace.

The 1st team has to be Trent, Kaman, Daniels, Boykins, and Wally. I can't really argue with that. There are tons of notable possible omissions - L Williams & J Tillman, Antonio Gates, Trevor Huffman, Tamar Slay, Theron Smith, David Webber, Keith Triplett, JR Vanhoose and so on. But the only guys listed I think I'd really fight you on being top 15 would be Zeke Marshall and John Edwards (I guess I think blocked shots are over-rated?)
OUVan
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Posted: 11/13/2014 9:32 AM
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Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
These lists end up being like the NCAA tournament...everyone screams about all the omissions but sometimes fail to talk about who they should replace.

The 1st team has to be Trent, Kaman, Daniels, Boykins, and Wally. I can't really argue with that. There are tons of notable possible omissions - L Williams & J Tillman, Antonio Gates, Trevor Huffman, Tamar Slay, Theron Smith, David Webber, Keith Triplett, JR Vanhoose and so on. But the only guys listed I think I'd really fight you on being top 15 would be Zeke Marshall and John Edwards (I guess I think blocked shots are over-rated?)
I don't think it's that cut and dried at all. You don't think Bonzi Wells is arguably one of the top 5 players? He is definitely ahead of Daniels IMO. And I think that other stats like assists and steals are just as important as points scored. Don't get me wrong, Daniels was a tremendous player but so was DJ. Both were MAC POY in their senior seasons. But Daniels only made first team all MAC once. DJ did it three times. And I've already gone into the postseason comparatives. Again I don't think it's that easy to dismiss DJ from the discussion.
OUVan
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Posted: 11/13/2014 9:46 AM
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Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
What do draft status and NBA career have to do with MAC play? College is entirely different game than the pros. Antonio Daniels' pro resume blows D.J. Cooper's away (and perhaps all our players). I'll take Cooper college resume over Daniels however.
NBA career? I'll give you that as irrelevant for this discussion. Draft status? That speaks directly to his college career, which was spectacular.
Completely disagree. How many times does the college player of the year go #1 in the draft? Rarely. Is it because they picked the wrong player as college player of the year? No, it's because the requirements of being a great pro are significantly different than the requirements of being a great college player. Jameer Nelson was a lot better college basketball player than most of the players taken ahead of him in the NBA draft. He just didn't have an NBA body.
JSF
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Posted: 11/13/2014 9:51 AM
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No love for Derrick Tarver?
GoCats105
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Posted: 11/13/2014 10:28 AM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
These lists end up being like the NCAA tournament...everyone screams about all the omissions but sometimes fail to talk about who they should replace.

The 1st team has to be Trent, Kaman, Daniels, Boykins, and Wally. I can't really argue with that. There are tons of notable possible omissions - L Williams & J Tillman, Antonio Gates, Trevor Huffman, Tamar Slay, Theron Smith, David Webber, Keith Triplett, JR Vanhoose and so on. But the only guys listed I think I'd really fight you on being top 15 would be Zeke Marshall and John Edwards (I guess I think blocked shots are over-rated?)
I don't think it's that cut and dried at all. You don't think Bonzi Wells is arguably one of the top 5 players? He is definitely ahead of Daniels IMO. And I think that other stats like assists and steals are just as important as points scored. Don't get me wrong, Daniels was a tremendous player but so was DJ. Both were MAC POY in their senior seasons. But Daniels only made first team all MAC once. DJ did it three times. And I've already gone into the postseason comparatives. Again I don't think it's that easy to dismiss DJ from the discussion.
Couldn't it also be argued that back in Daniels' day the MAC was a lot tougher?
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