Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Official Game 14 Thread: Toledo
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OU_Country
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Posted: 1/15/2015 3:36 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
What amazes me about this team is how bad they are defensively. On the post-game, Saul said they are little things away from being good. Perhaps, offensively. But on defense they have guards who aren't good at stopping penetration and I've yet to see Ndour battle for position. Which means guards have to sag back to help and that creates other problems. They are so bad defensively that their margin of error offensively is quite slim. After watching the last few games it struck me that it would be al most impossible for them to come back from a deficit because they can't string multiple stops together.

I took apart last nights boxscore to just show Toledo's offensive possessions (stops are in BOLD). Ohio did have a streak of 7 possessions (from the end of the first half through the beginning of the second half) where Toledo did not score. Unfortunately, Ohio did not capitalize. Other than that, Toledo never went more than 3 possessions without scoring. I don't know how you have a chance to win with D like that. Granted, Toledo is an above-average offensive team. But this has become a trend.


Here's a question with that thought in mind Ted: Are Stevie, Bean, Ryan not good on ball defender's, or is it "the system"? Have we considered whether or not Stevie & Bean played good enough D last year? I know they had Nick beside them often, who was a solid defender, as was Ricardo when healthy. It is a question worth considering to me.
Last Edited: 1/15/2015 3:36:49 PM by OU_Country
OUVan
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Posted: 1/15/2015 3:47 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
What amazes me about this team is how bad they are defensively. On the post-game, Saul said they are little things away from being good. Perhaps, offensively. But on defense they have guards who aren't good at stopping penetration and I've yet to see Ndour battle for position. Which means guards have to sag back to help and that creates other problems. They are so bad defensively that their margin of error offensively is quite slim. After watching the last few games it struck me that it would be al most impossible for them to come back from a deficit because they can't string multiple stops together.
I've been saying all year that the offense is frustrating but the defense is worse. I don't think you can understate how bad Bean and Stevie are at stopping penetration. It's the main reason our bigs are in constant foul trouble. You could literally set the same pick up against Bean for ten possessions in a row and he'd run into it ten straight times. And to make matters worse once the pick happens he does nothing. He doesn't try to recover. He doesn't try to pick up the man that is now open because someone else switches. He just stands there dumbfounded.

I think Stevie tries to defend but he bites on every single fake and his man just runs right by him. But at least he tries to do something after he gets beat.
OUVan
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Posted: 1/15/2015 3:52 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Here's a question with that thought in mind Ted: Are Stevie, Bean, Ryan not good on ball defender's, or is it "the system"? Have we considered whether or not Stevie & Bean played good enough D last year? I know they had Nick beside them often, who was a solid defender, as was Ricardo when healthy. It is a question worth considering to me.
I'm not an expert but it looks like Saul's system puts a lot of pressure on the guards to be able to stop their man one on one. I don't see the aggressive help up high from the bigs like we had under Groce.
JSF
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Posted: 1/15/2015 4:18 PM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
I'm not an expert but it looks like Saul's system puts a lot of pressure on the guards to be able to stop their man one on one. I don't see the aggressive help up high from the bigs like we had under Groce.
I always really liked the hard hedges we saw frequently under Groce. It was the best defense we played since I started following the team.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 1/15/2015 10:09 PM
way to break it down Van. Beaner has yet to see a screen he won't go under and get hung up on the way to boot. There is not a difference from last year. Guard penetration has been baaaaad and The high hard hedges we all used to lament KVK, DWash and others getting called for fouls on we would all love to see at this point in time. We miss you dearly hard hedge.

I dislike Bad basketball and have had a hard time watching this. Much better games elsewhere with a lot less talented kids playing them. Saul will do well here. He is infectious and sincere. Hopefully, as change occurs it is for the better. This program is on an upswing. The recruits look good on paper. Just got to get the fine points in place and executed.

Van you been on it. Nice analysis.
RSBobcat
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Posted: 1/16/2015 1:18 AM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
The high hard hedges we all used to lament KVK, DWash and others getting called for fouls on we would all love to see at this point in time. We miss you dearly hard hedge.

Van you been on it. Nice analysis.
When they got the foul calls on them it drove me nuts - but the trade off to the positive is so obvious now
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Posted: 1/16/2015 3:01 PM
Thanks Van and all for the defense analysis. I have been scratching my head trying to figure out the reason for opponents' ease in getting ball where they want so early. The running behind screens by Bean and Stevie isn't new but not having the extra help is different.

Help me with this on tegular occurence on offense please. When Tony gets ball on the left side he has a great move with the right handed hook. The problem is that every team has also figured out. Almost every time Tony gets the ball on that side one extra defender from the right side comes and doubles down on Tony. Tony made a nice reverse with a nifty left handed shot one time the other night. Anyhow, what is the best way to stop defenses from this? A stronger move by Tony? move him to the right side or get the ball to him after he starts his move so defense has less time to adjust?

Seems like this is part of the guard problem that has been discussed. Teams can double down until we beat them with our on top play. Ryan Taylor has displayed some flashes of talent that would allow the bigs' play to change for the positive.

Here's to continuous improvement.
JSF
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Posted: 1/16/2015 5:38 PM
He can either:

1. Get quicker and act before the help comes,
2. Pass to the open man,
3. Go the other way, like he did with the left hand.

If you punish a double team enough, it will stop.
RSBobcat
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Posted: 1/16/2015 11:09 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
He can either:

1. Get quicker and act before the help comes,
2. Pass to the open man,
3. Go the other way, like he did with the left hand.

If you punish a double team enough, it will stop.
Yep

And the "open" man should be coming to the hoop behind/under the post defender as he moves away from the basket to D up Tony - for the pass from Tony or the rebound if the shot is missed.
OU_Country
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:12 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I'm not an expert but it looks like Saul's system puts a lot of pressure on the guards to be able to stop their man one on one. I don't see the aggressive help up high from the bigs like we had under Groce.
I always really liked the hard hedges we saw frequently under Groce. It was the best defense we played since I started following the team.

I totally agree with this. The 2011-2012 team locked down perimeter players often, and had the depth and bodies to do it.


As for the current year, this is why I ask if it's time for coaching to change how we're playing defense? We have enough length & athleticism that a 2-3 zone that was done decently would at least limit some of the penetration into the lane. Part of being a coach is realizing that you can't smash the square peg into the round hole every time and succeed. "Our way", just because it has worked in previous years taking a different group of guys at a different school to the tournament, may not work with this bunch, THIS year.

I'm no basketball genius, but maybe what the players are being asked to do is what needs to change - if just for this season - because they simply aren't good enough to play straight up man to man.
OU_Country
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Posted: 1/17/2015 12:14 PM
Oh, and to add, I'm in agreement with Van. Defense is the problem first and foremost. Giving up 5-6 fewer points a game, and getting to the line 5-6 more times a game would go a long, long way with this group.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 1/17/2015 1:15 PM
Country .....most coaches will always concede that if you don't understand man to man principles you will rarely be able to run a zone efficiently.( i.e. if Beaner ducks under he going to get burnt on the top of the zone and the drive will still come with a runner or a kick out when the big rotates). You give up ANY rebounding you have in the zone. The other part of playing a zone relies on interconnectedness and communication. You will often hear talking heads mention how the Syracuse zone seems like there is a string working between the players. COmmunication and connectedness are 2 traits this team is severely lacking. Relying on these guys to react as a player runs baseline or is passed from the top of the 2 3 to the lower wing player and accept the responsibilty will leave guys out there saying "He's not MY man" in all probability. Watch Izzo teach communication in this drrill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MGHOAP1qVs

Understanding all the things that go into "just switching those round pegs" is far more than backing up and saying "its not working why don't we try?" Oddly enough, due to injuries and a depleted roster Groce, because he does so much team building and trust exercises in the off season has been able to use the 2 3 very effectiv3ely since Rice went down 3 or 4 games ago. TOTAL deviation from his basic coaching philosophy and mantra.
JSF
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Posted: 1/17/2015 1:43 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I'm no basketball genius, but maybe what the players are being asked to do is what needs to change - if just for this season - because they simply aren't good enough to play straight up man to man.
We're not going anywhere this year. I'd rather we take our lumps now and get the experience.
RSBobcat
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Posted: 1/17/2015 1:57 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I'm no basketball genius, but maybe what the players are being asked to do is what needs to change - if just for this season - because they simply aren't good enough to play straight up man to man.
We're not going anywhere this year. I'd rather we take our lumps now and get the experience.
Right now we have nowhere to go but up - so I think we will be going "somewhere"
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 1/17/2015 11:11 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I'm no basketball genius, but maybe what the players are being asked to do is what needs to change - if just for this season - because they simply aren't good enough to play straight up man to man.
We're not going anywhere this year. I'd rather we take our lumps now and get the experience.
+1

I think Saul's eyes are on building for the future. This is a little similar to what Frank did this season in the oblong-ball sport by putting in a new defensive alignment and system that was not easily learned. It didn't help much this year, but should be a positive for the future.
OU_Country
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Posted: 1/19/2015 11:53 AM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
Country .....most coaches will always concede that if you don't understand man to man principles you will rarely be able to run a zone efficiently.( i.e. if Beaner ducks under he going to get burnt on the top of the zone and the drive will still come with a runner or a kick out when the big rotates). You give up ANY rebounding you have in the zone. The other part of playing a zone relies on interconnectedness and communication. You will often hear talking heads mention how the Syracuse zone seems like there is a string working between the players. COmmunication and connectedness are 2 traits this team is severely lacking. Relying on these guys to react as a player runs baseline or is passed from the top of the 2 3 to the lower wing player and accept the responsibilty will leave guys out there saying "He's not MY man" in all probability. Watch Izzo teach communication in this drrill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MGHOAP1qVs

Understanding all the things that go into "just switching those round pegs" is far more than backing up and saying "its not working why don't we try?" Oddly enough, due to injuries and a depleted roster Groce, because he does so much team building and trust exercises in the off season has been able to use the 2 3 very effectiv3ely since Rice went down 3 or 4 games ago. TOTAL deviation from his basic coaching philosophy and mantra.

Thanks for the education on this, and good points on the communication/connectedness lacking, and being a key to making the 2-3 work. Great video work by Izzo there. I love the idea of teaching defense by playing a defender short.
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