Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Fan apathy?
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GroverBall
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Posted: 2/19/2015 9:40 PM
TheBobcatBandit wrote:expand_more
honestly I have to somewhat agree and I might take heat for this too. But I'd have to say Mo is one of the most disappointing players I've seen at Ohio. I feel like he has so much potential and has given us spurts of it but the fact that he hasn't done as well as anyone thought he would (which for me was be MAC POY)has driven me crazy. He still has time to make things happen though so I'm not giving up yet. If he and Bean can live up to their potential this tournament then I will completely change my stance but if we get knocked out first round I'm going to be pretty bummed and disappointed with this group of seniors.
Look, I understand that you are seeing things this way. And I understand smoking the green kool-aid and hoping for a POY out of Mo going into the season. But I honestly think that if our record was 15-9 instead of 9-15, and 9-4 in MAC instead of 4-9 and Mo had exactly the same numbers you would be singing a different tune so I don't think the disappointment should be so focused on Mo. He may not be POY but his contribution has been SOLID and among the top performers in the MAC:

9th in scoring (14.6)
2nd in rebounding (8.4)
8th in FT% (78%)
2nd in blocked shots (2.1)
8th in offensive rebounding (2.3)
2nd in defensive rebounds (6.1)
3rd in minutes played(34.1)

He's shooting .469 from field, .361 from three
He's third on OUr team in assists, second in steals
He's shot 60 more free throws than OUr next closest player

If this is "disappointing" somebody was really into the kool-aid.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 2/19/2015 10:02 PM
I admit to being kind of apathetic this year compared to most years, but my apathy is not my ruling emotion. I did pay $8.95 yesterday to watch the freezes and buffering of the feed from WMU. I did see enough, though, to see that this team does not have a leader on the floor and plays at times with more emotion than brains. Some of the miscues look very much like the kind of thing you'd see in a bad pickup game, and trust me, I've participated in a lot of bad pickup games -- usually I'm the king of bad passes and stupid moves and the worst guy on the court. So, I know firsthand what bad basketball looks like, and at a much higher level and with much more athleticism this is bad basketball. One thing I've noticed from my checkered pickup career is that if you got on a team with one or two really good players no one will notice how bad you are and your team is likely to win because of the skill and the leadership of those good players. And here, by "good player" I'm talking not only about athletic skill but basketball IQ. These guys even make the scrubs like me look good by getting a pass to you when you are wide open. OHIO has no one like this. No player who shows leadership and makes the whole team play above their individual talent levels. You may see it occasionally, but not on any consistent basis. It seems like five guys who are pretty much looking to pad individual stats, and if that leads to a win, OK, but if it doesn't, well so what. I realize that this is an overstatement and that at times we really try, but day in and day out this team totally lacks leadership and any kind of vision. OK, I've spouted off enough. If I'm this frustrated I can't be completely apathetic.
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 2/19/2015 10:12 PM
GroverBall wrote:expand_more
honestly I have to somewhat agree and I might take heat for this too. But I'd have to say Mo is one of the most disappointing players I've seen at Ohio. I feel like he has so much potential and has given us spurts of it but the fact that he hasn't done as well as anyone thought he would (which for me was be MAC POY)has driven me crazy. He still has time to make things happen though so I'm not giving up yet. If he and Bean can live up to their potential this tournament then I will completely change my stance but if we get knocked out first round I'm going to be pretty bummed and disappointed with this group of seniors.
Look, I understand that you are seeing things this way. And I understand smoking the green kool-aid and hoping for a POY out of Mo going into the season. But I honestly think that if our record was 15-9 instead of 9-15, and 9-4 in MAC instead of 4-9 and Mo had exactly the same numbers you would be singing a different tune so I don't think the disappointment should be so focused on Mo. He may not be POY but his contribution has been SOLID and among the top performers in the MAC:

9th in scoring (14.6)
2nd in rebounding (8.4)
8th in FT% (78%)
2nd in blocked shots (2.1)
8th in offensive rebounding (2.3)
2nd in defensive rebounds (6.1)
3rd in minutes played(34.1)

He's shooting .469 from field, .361 from three
He's third on OUr team in assists, second in steals
He's shot 60 more free throws than OUr next closest player

If this is "disappointing" somebody was really into the kool-aid.
I agree he has played well and been a solid contributor but I think when he came in last year and started out hot we all saw the potential for him to be not just a solid player but a GREAT player. one of the best. Those may be too high of expectations but there is a reason why NBA scouts come watch him. When you think of the great OU bigs who have been drafted like Larry Hunter and Gary Trent do you put Ndour close to them with their performance at OU? No, not even close. Now if I ask you the same question on their raw ability and how good of players they're I would put Ndour a lot closer then his performance has showed. He has so much potential and I don't understand how anyone could not be disappointed. You can see he has it in him. For example the Buffalo game, but he hasn't done it consistently. And I don't want you to think I'm just disappointed with him. This whole senior class has been a big let down which hasn't been their fault. The coaching changes have hurt a lot.
bobcatpaul
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Posted: 2/19/2015 10:39 PM
Yep, Larry Hunter was a real enforcer in the paint :-)
Last Edited: 2/19/2015 10:42:10 PM by bobcatpaul
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 2/19/2015 11:02 PM
haha good catch Brandon*****
RSBobcat
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Posted: 2/19/2015 11:41 PM
GroverBall wrote:expand_more
honestly I have to somewhat agree and I might take heat for this too. But I'd have to say Mo is one of the most disappointing players I've seen at Ohio. I feel like he has so much potential and has given us spurts of it but the fact that he hasn't done as well as anyone thought he would (which for me was be MAC POY)has driven me crazy. He still has time to make things happen though so I'm not giving up yet. If he and Bean can live up to their potential this tournament then I will completely change my stance but if we get knocked out first round I'm going to be pretty bummed and disappointed with this group of seniors.
Look, I understand that you are seeing things this way. And I understand smoking the green kool-aid and hoping for a POY out of Mo going into the season. But I honestly think that if our record was 15-9 instead of 9-15, and 9-4 in MAC instead of 4-9 and Mo had exactly the same numbers you would be singing a different tune so I don't think the disappointment should be so focused on Mo. He may not be POY but his contribution has been SOLID and among the top performers in the MAC:

9th in scoring (14.6)
2nd in rebounding (8.4)
8th in FT% (78%)
2nd in blocked shots (2.1)
8th in offensive rebounding (2.3)
2nd in defensive rebounds (6.1)
3rd in minutes played(34.1)

He's shooting .469 from field, .361 from three
He's third on OUr team in assists, second in steals
He's shot 60 more free throws than OUr next closest player

If this is "disappointing" somebody was really into the kool-aid.
+++++
GroverBall
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Posted: 2/20/2015 12:00 AM
TheBobcatBandit wrote:expand_more
honestly I have to somewhat agree and I might take heat for this too. But I'd have to say Mo is one of the most disappointing players I've seen at Ohio. I feel like he has so much potential and has given us spurts of it but the fact that he hasn't done as well as anyone thought he would (which for me was be MAC POY)has driven me crazy. He still has time to make things happen though so I'm not giving up yet. If he and Bean can live up to their potential this tournament then I will completely change my stance but if we get knocked out first round I'm going to be pretty bummed and disappointed with this group of seniors.
Look, I understand that you are seeing things this way. And I understand smoking the green kool-aid and hoping for a POY out of Mo going into the season. But I honestly think that if our record was 15-9 instead of 9-15, and 9-4 in MAC instead of 4-9 and Mo had exactly the same numbers you would be singing a different tune so I don't think the disappointment should be so focused on Mo. He may not be POY but his contribution has been SOLID and among the top performers in the MAC:

9th in scoring (14.6)
2nd in rebounding (8.4)
8th in FT% (78%)
2nd in blocked shots (2.1)
8th in offensive rebounding (2.3)
2nd in defensive rebounds (6.1)
3rd in minutes played(34.1)

He's shooting .469 from field, .361 from three
He's third on OUr team in assists, second in steals
He's shot 60 more free throws than OUr next closest player

If this is "disappointing" somebody was really into the kool-aid.
I agree he has played well and been a solid contributor but I think when he came in last year and started out hot we all saw the potential for him to be not just a solid player but a GREAT player. one of the best. Those may be too high of expectations but there is a reason why NBA scouts come watch him. When you think of the great OU bigs who have been drafted like Larry Hunter and Gary Trent do you put Ndour close to them with their performance at OU? No, not even close. Now if I ask you the same question on their raw ability and how good of players they're I would put Ndour a lot closer then his performance has showed. He has so much potential and I don't understand how anyone could not be disappointed. You can see he has it in him. For example the Buffalo game, but he hasn't done it consistently. And I don't want you to think I'm just disappointed with him. This whole senior class has been a big let down which hasn't been their fault. The coaching changes have hurt a lot.
Seeing potential and seeing greatness are two very different things, heck look at all the people drooling already on here about the potential of next year's team. Yes, I too saw Mo's potential, but even when I was drooling over that potential maybe becoming reality I would never have put him in Trent's category, and maybe not Hunter's either. With Trent for sure we SAW greatness. DOMINATION. With Mo we have seen potential to be very very good, but we have not seen Greatness. You have to SEE it, it can't be potential, especially not in a guy you get for 2 years., it has to be domination. I never expected that level of greatness that you're talking about from Mo. Did you see Trent play? He DOMINATED. And to a lesser degree so did Hunter. Lots of guys in the MAC have won POY and not come close to the level of either of those guys.
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 2/20/2015 12:09 AM
GroverBall wrote:expand_more
honestly I have to somewhat agree and I might take heat for this too. But I'd have to say Mo is one of the most disappointing players I've seen at Ohio. I feel like he has so much potential and has given us spurts of it but the fact that he hasn't done as well as anyone thought he would (which for me was be MAC POY)has driven me crazy. He still has time to make things happen though so I'm not giving up yet. If he and Bean can live up to their potential this tournament then I will completely change my stance but if we get knocked out first round I'm going to be pretty bummed and disappointed with this group of seniors.
Look, I understand that you are seeing things this way. And I understand smoking the green kool-aid and hoping for a POY out of Mo going into the season. But I honestly think that if our record was 15-9 instead of 9-15, and 9-4 in MAC instead of 4-9 and Mo had exactly the same numbers you would be singing a different tune so I don't think the disappointment should be so focused on Mo. He may not be POY but his contribution has been SOLID and among the top performers in the MAC:

9th in scoring (14.6)
2nd in rebounding (8.4)
8th in FT% (78%)
2nd in blocked shots (2.1)
8th in offensive rebounding (2.3)
2nd in defensive rebounds (6.1)
3rd in minutes played(34.1)

He's shooting .469 from field, .361 from three
He's third on OUr team in assists, second in steals
He's shot 60 more free throws than OUr next closest player

If this is "disappointing" somebody was really into the kool-aid.
I agree he has played well and been a solid contributor but I think when he came in last year and started out hot we all saw the potential for him to be not just a solid player but a GREAT player. one of the best. Those may be too high of expectations but there is a reason why NBA scouts come watch him. When you think of the great OU bigs who have been drafted like Larry Hunter and Gary Trent do you put Ndour close to them with their performance at OU? No, not even close. Now if I ask you the same question on their raw ability and how good of players they're I would put Ndour a lot closer then his performance has showed. He has so much potential and I don't understand how anyone could not be disappointed. You can see he has it in him. For example the Buffalo game, but he hasn't done it consistently. And I don't want you to think I'm just disappointed with him. This whole senior class has been a big let down which hasn't been their fault. The coaching changes have hurt a lot.
Seeing potential and seeing greatness are two very different things, heck look at all the people drooling already on here about the potential of next year's team. Yes, I too saw Mo's potential, but even when I was drooling over that potential maybe becoming reality I would never have put him in Trent's category, and maybe not Hunter's either. With Trent for sure we SAW greatness. DOMINATION. With Mo we have seen potential to be very very good, but we have not seen Greatness. You have to SEE it, it can't be potential, especially not in a guy you get for 2 years., it has to be domination. I never expected that level of greatness that you're talking about from Mo. Did you see Trent play? He DOMINATED. And to a lesser degree so did Hunter. Lots of guys in the MAC have won POY and not come close to the level of either of those guys.
Couldn't you say when Mo put up 31 and 6 against Buffalo he "dominated". I agree with you that on a week in week out basis all we have seen from Mo is potential. But against Buffalo this year and a few games last year I saw Greatness
GroverBall
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Posted: 2/20/2015 12:26 AM
We may be talking about different things. IMHO "greatness" does not come from a handful of games. Potential might be seen, but not greatness.
GroverBall
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Posted: 2/20/2015 12:46 AM
Just for reference:

As a freshman, Gary Trent averaged 19 pts and 9 rebounds shot 65%
Sophomore, 25 pts and 11, 57%
Junior 23 and 13, 52%

His entire 3 year college career he was a man among boys. At 6'8" 250 he had a 42+ inch vertical jump. He benched 400 pounds. He was POY all 3 years.

This is greatness. This is domination.

To go into this season thinking Mo might be in the conversation with Trent is just the kool-aid talking.
Last Edited: 2/20/2015 12:52:06 AM by GroverBall
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 2/20/2015 1:36 AM
GroverBall wrote:expand_more
Just for reference:

As a freshman, Gary Trent averaged 19 pts and 9 rebounds shot 65%
Sophomore, 25 pts and 11, 57%
Junior 23 and 13, 52%

His entire 3 year college career he was a man among boys. At 6'8" 250 he had a 42+ inch vertical jump. He benched 400 pounds. He was POY all 3 years.

This is greatness. This is domination.

To go into this season thinking Mo might be in the conversation with Trent is just the kool-aid talking.
I get that Mo and Trent are in different categories with there performance on the floor. I stated that above. Mo had shown flashes in games last year where he was a very good player. But he hadnt showed us it consistently. This year me and I'm sure other people hoped that he would take the next step and be a consistent force down low. He has not been and I think that's disappointing. That is my point.

With regards to him and Trent. Yes he has not been as good clearly. But my point was I think he has/had the potential too be as good. I don't think it's off the wall to think Mo could have averaged 20 a game this year. He hasn't done it but he showed us his potential too against buffalo so he clearly is capable of it. He has the talent.
Last Edited: 2/20/2015 1:40:41 AM by TheBobcatBandit
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 2/20/2015 1:48 AM
Mo averaged 13.8 last year with 7 boards. This year he is only averaging a point and a rebound better. With the potential I saw last year I hoped for a bigger improvement than 1 point and 1 board.
GoCats105
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Posted: 2/20/2015 7:36 AM
GroverBall wrote:expand_more
honestly I have to somewhat agree and I might take heat for this too. But I'd have to say Mo is one of the most disappointing players I've seen at Ohio. I feel like he has so much potential and has given us spurts of it but the fact that he hasn't done as well as anyone thought he would (which for me was be MAC POY)has driven me crazy. He still has time to make things happen though so I'm not giving up yet. If he and Bean can live up to their potential this tournament then I will completely change my stance but if we get knocked out first round I'm going to be pretty bummed and disappointed with this group of seniors.
Look, I understand that you are seeing things this way. And I understand smoking the green kool-aid and hoping for a POY out of Mo going into the season. But I honestly think that if our record was 15-9 instead of 9-15, and 9-4 in MAC instead of 4-9 and Mo had exactly the same numbers you would be singing a different tune so I don't think the disappointment should be so focused on Mo. He may not be POY but his contribution has been SOLID and among the top performers in the MAC:

9th in scoring (14.6)
2nd in rebounding (8.4)
8th in FT% (78%)
2nd in blocked shots (2.1)
8th in offensive rebounding (2.3)
2nd in defensive rebounds (6.1)
3rd in minutes played(34.1)

He's shooting .469 from field, .361 from three
He's third on OUr team in assists, second in steals
He's shot 60 more free throws than OUr next closest player

If this is "disappointing" somebody was really into the kool-aid.
Third on the team in assists doesn't really mean much when you have a negative assist/turnover ratio. For all the numbers guys out there, I would love to see what his overall +/- is.
perimeterpost
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Posted: 2/20/2015 7:53 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Third on the team in assists doesn't really mean much when you have a negative assist/turnover ratio. For all the numbers guys out there, I would love to see what his overall +/- is.

1.40 STaylor (59/42)
1.20 Willis (73/61)
1.00 RTaylor (32/32)
1.00 Harley (14/14)
0.62 Setty (19/31)
0.60 NDour (40/67)
0.50 Campbell (14/28)
0.42 Laster (10/24)
0.38 Mompremier (3/8)
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 2/20/2015 9:03 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
For all the numbers guys out there, I would love to see what his overall +/- is.
Thru mid-January, it was pretty clear we struggled without him on the court:

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?ForumP...

I will try to get updated numbers, but I know a few more games do not have the +/- available and would need calculated.
JSF
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Posted: 2/20/2015 9:46 AM
An NBA scout coming to see you play is not that big a deal; they'll check out anyone with even a shred of talent.

The tenor has been, "Maurice is disappointing because he hasn't dominated," which is harsh and completely unfair. Potential? Yes. But he's also inexperienced, the kind of player who needs a lot of development and the right environment to flourish. I don't think he really get either one of those. I mean, without him, how much worse would we be? Would we have even half the wins we do now?
GoCats105
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Posted: 2/20/2015 9:52 AM
JSF wrote:expand_more
An NBA scout coming to see you play is not that big a deal; they'll check out anyone with even a shred of talent.

The tenor has been, "Maurice is disappointing because he hasn't dominated," which is harsh and completely unfair. Potential? Yes. But he's also inexperienced, the kind of player who needs a lot of development and the right environment to flourish. I don't think he really get either one of those. I mean, without him, how much worse would we be? Would we have even half the wins we do now?
This is probably a more fair way to look at it. Maybe I just expected too much with as good as he has been and the overall potential he does have. I'd be interested to see what his overall body of work would be with 4 years on campus. Unfortunately that cant happen.
Last Edited: 2/20/2015 9:53:01 AM by GoCats105
100%Cat
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Posted: 2/20/2015 10:06 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
I'm gonna get a lot of hate on this board, but I'm done with Mo.
I've given up on Bean he takes way to many shots 5 to 10 sec. into the shot clock and he turns the ball over way to much for a senior.
Mo has more TOs than Bean does, which is pretty ridiculous when you think about how many times he DOESN'T touch the ball when he should. Both are averaging almost 3 TOs a game.
Something I don't think I have seen mentioned here, and I'm not sure if there's any validity in it, but it's a thought: did Mo playing in the World Cup and not being with the team for the preseason trips and practices have a bad impact on this team?
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Posted: 2/20/2015 10:08 AM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
I wanted to ask, why it is that Mo seems to get more benefit of the doubt than Bean when it comes to "blame" on here? By no means am I bothered by his efforts, but it does seem he gets a free pass here and Willis takes more flak.
Maybe it's because as point guard Bean is supposed to run the offense, which includes feeding other players. Instead, it seems his first instinct is to find a shot for himself. I know that's "Bean being Bean" but our greatest successes have come when the PG focused more on getting the ball to an open man and less on his own point total.

I think I recall someone on here, more than once, saying that the PG is "supposed to run the show, not be the show."
OUVan
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Posted: 2/20/2015 10:26 AM
Bobcat1998 wrote:expand_more
I thought during the World Games that the best thing for Mo was that he did a solid job but now that we are more than half way through his senior year I realize that during the World Games the worst thing for MO was that he did a solid job. Now he thinks he's a perimeter player and he spends less time down low. He gets most of his boards from long rebounds and shame on him for showing us against Buffalo what he can do if he takes over 15 feet and in. Mo should NEVER shoot a 3 and should never get the ball on the perimeter and look to make a move. He and Bean have shown that after having 3 coaches in their careers they are out to get theirs. I thought Stevie was getting like that too but he has calmed down. I will give benefit of the doubt to having a coaching transition. What I will not give benefit of the doubt to is selfish shot selection, poor boxouts and poor closeouts. I coach girls basketball and have kids who hustle more on boxouts and closeouts than these guys.
Let me ask you this. How many times a game does Mo receive a pass near the basket? And don't try to tell me it's because he spends most of his time out on the perimeter because that's crap. He and Tony work their butts off down low on most possessions but the ball never comes until our guard has dribbled left, then right and determined he doesn't have a shot and kicks a pass to either wing. Tony and Mo shoot a lot of perimeter shots because for the most part it's the only place they touch the ball. Ryan Taylor did a good job earlier in the year looking to pass down low but even he's been looking down their less often. Treg is the only player who consistently looks to fire it down low when he gets the ball. It's maddening, yes, but to blame Mo for not taking more shots nearer the basket is misplaced. To get a shot near the basket he's got to take there himself and unfortunately that leads to a lot of turnovers.
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Posted: 2/20/2015 10:30 AM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
I thought during the World Games that the best thing for Mo was that he did a solid job but now that we are more than half way through his senior year I realize that during the World Games the worst thing for MO was that he did a solid job. Now he thinks he's a perimeter player and he spends less time down low. He gets most of his boards from long rebounds and shame on him for showing us against Buffalo what he can do if he takes over 15 feet and in. Mo should NEVER shoot a 3 and should never get the ball on the perimeter and look to make a move. He and Bean have shown that after having 3 coaches in their careers they are out to get theirs. I thought Stevie was getting like that too but he has calmed down. I will give benefit of the doubt to having a coaching transition. What I will not give benefit of the doubt to is selfish shot selection, poor boxouts and poor closeouts. I coach girls basketball and have kids who hustle more on boxouts and closeouts than these guys.
Let me ask you this. How many times a game does Mo receive a pass near the basket? And don't try to tell me it's because he spends most of his time out on the perimeter because that's crap. He and Tony work their butts off down low on most possessions but the ball never comes until our guard has dribbled left, then right and determined he doesn't have a shot and kicks a pass to either wing. Tony and Mo shoot a lot of perimeter shots because for the most part it's the only place they touch the ball. Ryan Taylor did a good job earlier in the year looking to pass down low but even he's been looking down their less often. Treg is the only player who consistently looks to fire it down low when he gets the ball. It's maddening, yes, but to blame Mo for not taking more shots nearer the basket is misplaced. To get a shot near the basket he's got to take there himself and unfortunately that leads to a lot of turnovers.
Turnovers that are mostly traveling calls.
Last Edited: 2/20/2015 10:30:59 AM by davepi2
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 2/20/2015 10:46 AM
Fearless prediction: Kaminski will dominate next year; and Simmons will be one of the best PGs in the MAC.
OUVan
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Posted: 2/20/2015 11:01 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
and Simmons will be one of the best PGs in the MAC.
God I hope so.
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