Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Official Game 15 Thread: Bowling Green
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MonroeClassmate
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Posted: 1/13/2016 7:54 AM
Refs should have called technicals on themselves!

When a football player goes into the sidelines, a couple of refs usually go in near them. In the NC game Monday I never saw so many instances of refs offering a hand to help up a player.

When the momentum of a player crashes him into the stands, scoreboard or in this case the opponents bench, you'd think a ref or two would be right there to help the player out. Good refs can defuse these situations but instead this crew appear to sit on their thumbs.
shabamon
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Posted: 1/13/2016 8:23 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
-Three Ohio players were given technical fouls because they entered the BG bench area. Saul said in the post game he teaches his guys to help their teammates off the floor when they fall down. Simmons was literally buried under about 5 BG players.

-The rule book supposedly states that if players leave the bench area during a fight, then those players are to be given technical fouls. The refs explained to Saul that no punches were thrown and nobody was shoved, so there was no fight, hence why no other BG players got technical fouls.

And that's where IMO the refs messed this whole thing up. You can't call the techs on the Ohio players and then not call some on BG. The refs said it themselves, it wasn't a fight. So why are there even any technicals at all?

Setty, Harley, and Kaminski were not going over to the BG bench with any malicious intent whatsoever. They were just trying to get Simmons off the floor. That's a technical foul? I get it, that's the rule book saying you can't go to a team's bench area. But that rule has to be interpreted differently in this situation.
Co-sign. Basketball, much more than football or baseball, is a sport where officials have a lot of leeway to use common sense and not always act by the book. I'm sure when they convened with the coaches, Saul explained that he instructs his players to pick their teammates off the floor. I can't think of a more appropriate time to do this than when our guy is swallowed up by the other team who isn't paying attention to anything other than their player who hit the three.

I am a youth basketball official and just two days ago I received an e-mail about common sense officiating. Are you going to talk a player out of the three second lane when he has not been previously warned or are you going to issue a Barney Fife "Citizen's Arrest!" and call it immediately? Is it right to a call technical foul without warning when a coach stands two feet outside his coaching box? IMO, what we all saw last night was not common sense officiating.
GoCats105
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Posted: 1/13/2016 8:58 AM
shabamon wrote:expand_more
-Three Ohio players were given technical fouls because they entered the BG bench area. Saul said in the post game he teaches his guys to help their teammates off the floor when they fall down. Simmons was literally buried under about 5 BG players.

-The rule book supposedly states that if players leave the bench area during a fight, then those players are to be given technical fouls. The refs explained to Saul that no punches were thrown and nobody was shoved, so there was no fight, hence why no other BG players got technical fouls.

And that's where IMO the refs messed this whole thing up. You can't call the techs on the Ohio players and then not call some on BG. The refs said it themselves, it wasn't a fight. So why are there even any technicals at all?

Setty, Harley, and Kaminski were not going over to the BG bench with any malicious intent whatsoever. They were just trying to get Simmons off the floor. That's a technical foul? I get it, that's the rule book saying you can't go to a team's bench area. But that rule has to be interpreted differently in this situation.
Co-sign. Basketball, much more than football or baseball, is a sport where officials have a lot of leeway to use common sense and not always act by the book. I'm sure when they convened with the coaches, Saul explained that he instructs his players to pick their teammates off the floor. I can't think of a more appropriate time to do this than when our guy is swallowed up by the other team who isn't paying attention to anything other than their player who hit the three.

I am a youth basketball official and just two days ago I received an e-mail about common sense officiating. Are you going to talk a player out of the three second lane when he has not been previously warned or are you going to issue a Barney Fife "Citizen's Arrest!" and call it immediately? Is it right to a call technical foul without warning when a coach stands two feet outside his coaching box? IMO, what we all saw last night was not common sense officiating.
Absolutely. Even while it was happening I was telling myself "oh, ok they are just separating the guys." But no, they deliberated forever and called technical fouls for a non-fight.

And really, if anything, why didn't Saul get a technical for leaving the Ohio bench? Does that rule not apply to the head coach? That is initially what I thought they might do.
GroverBall
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Posted: 1/13/2016 9:13 AM
shabamon wrote:expand_more
-Three Ohio players were given technical fouls because they entered the BG bench area. Saul said in the post game he teaches his guys to help their teammates off the floor when they fall down. Simmons was literally buried under about 5 BG players.

-The rule book supposedly states that if players leave the bench area during a fight, then those players are to be given technical fouls. The refs explained to Saul that no punches were thrown and nobody was shoved, so there was no fight, hence why no other BG players got technical fouls.

And that's where IMO the refs messed this whole thing up. You can't call the techs on the Ohio players and then not call some on BG. The refs said it themselves, it wasn't a fight. So why are there even any technicals at all?

Setty, Harley, and Kaminski were not going over to the BG bench with any malicious intent whatsoever. They were just trying to get Simmons off the floor. That's a technical foul? I get it, that's the rule book saying you can't go to a team's bench area. But that rule has to be interpreted differently in this situation.
Co-sign. Basketball, much more than football or baseball, is a sport where officials have a lot of leeway to use common sense and not always act by the book. I'm sure when they convened with the coaches, Saul explained that he instructs his players to pick their teammates off the floor. I can't think of a more appropriate time to do this than when our guy is swallowed up by the other team who isn't paying attention to anything other than their player who hit the three.

I am a youth basketball official and just two days ago I received an e-mail about common sense officiating. Are you going to talk a player out of the three second lane when he has not been previously warned or are you going to issue a Barney Fife "Citizen's Arrest!" and call it immediately? Is it right to a call technical foul without warning when a coach stands two feet outside his coaching box? IMO, what we all saw last night was not common sense officiating.
I don't get the Tech on Saul for "being out of the coaches box" unless the refs had specifically warned both benches about that after the scrum. Coaches are "out of the coaches box" all friggin game, every game, out on the floor, down to the scorers table, etc. And the 15 minutes it took to sort this out was ridiculous given what they called. I figured there were going to be a bunch of ejections, they acted like it was Pacers-Pistons. The only upside to the delay were Saul's kids, who were doing some dancing and then were the ones responsible, I believe, for a decent wave getting going around the Convo.
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Posted: 1/13/2016 9:15 AM
I'm getting a little tired of the complaining about the refs as if they were responsible for the outcome of the game. They're MAC refs. They're always bad, and bad both ways. There were bad calls that went in favor of Ohio last night too. Every team needs to deal with it. Tonight was nothing new. But on that particular play, they may have actually been right. Yes, it's shocking, I know, but if the rules state players can't enter an opponent's bench area, well video clearly shows that three of our guys did exactly that. And just because you aren't aware of the rule doesn't mean that when you commit a foul that it didn't exist. That goes straight back to coaching, and as we have learned from SP himself, he didn't even know either. So it's a teaching moment all the way around.

Listening to SP he almost makes the refs sound like a scapegoat for the loss. They weren't. Take those free throws away and BG very likely still wins, just by a little less. SP also got T-ed up after that, was that gonna help a comeback? BG just kicked OU's tail from the midpoint of the first half on. Period. Everyone is so focused on the play in front of the bench, well what about what happened to set that all up? We fouled a guy making a three. Huge mistake. That put Ohio down 8 with them going to the line with under 4 to go. BG's bench did what any team, including OU, would do if a teammate hit and got fouled on the three at that point in the game. There was no stomping and there was no punching. After the 20 replays they showed, I don't even think BG's bench realized Simmons ended up where he did because Ali went down right there too. OU's guys did nothing malicious going over to help their teammate, other than as we learned, entering an opponent's bench area is not allowed. If that's a rule, it's a rule. Just because SP or guys didn't know about it doesn't mean it shouldn't have been called. You deal with it and move on. SP even said he'll have to teach differently because he clearly wasn't aware of it. Bottom line is OU lost, BG won, and it didn't happen based on a few free throws. Ohio had a 14 point lead on its home floor and lost by 15. A few free throws did not cause that kind of swing.
Last Edited: 1/13/2016 9:21:07 AM by OhioBobcat
Casper71
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Posted: 1/13/2016 9:29 AM
Ohio Bobcat +1 here.

I have a different take on this. I am a big believer in separating CAUSE and EFFECT. I would say in this case it was a stupid foul (the cause) that led to the rest of the non common sense actions (effect). If our defender doesn't go into an opponent 25 or 30 feet from the hoop and try to block a 3 that has been released none of this happens. This is the accountability issue too. Nobody wants to be accountable for their actions anymore. I have not seen or heard anyone say anything about the foul that started all this and how dumb it was.

If I am Saul...I want my guys to play good solid defense (which we don't). If the players do, good things happen and if they don't bad things happen. Last night it was a big defensive error that cemented the outcome and led to bad things. BG kicked our butts by hustling and wanting it more than we did after the 10 minute mark in the first half. Let's hope that changes.
GoCats105
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Posted: 1/13/2016 9:42 AM
I don't think anyone is blaming the refs and/or the outcome of the scrum for the loss. I'm sure Saul wouldn't either if you asked him. But something that takes that long to deliberate is going to be asked about in post game presser.

Now, the score was only 71-66 before that play (74-66 if you count the three pointer). But that possession turned into a 10-point possession with all the three and all the foul shots, plus another driving layup, foul and 3 point play. I can see why Saul would think the team was basically dead in the water after that, because that's definitely true.

And I'm not blaming Simmons for that foul starting the scrum and getting the techs. He fouled a shooter. It happens. You don't want or like it to happen but it happens. The refs could have controlled the situation a little better.
Last Edited: 1/13/2016 9:43:52 AM by GoCats105
71 BOBCAT
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Posted: 1/13/2016 10:05 AM
Officiating calls always seem to go in the direction of the more aggressive team. BG was that aggressive team last night.
We are now an easy team to scout; 1) Get Tony in foul trouble 2) Let KK shoot 3's 3) Ohio plays soft D & 4) We give up second chance points due to poor board play.
That's an easy plan for any team to execute.




GO BOBCATS
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Posted: 1/13/2016 10:35 AM
I agree with those who don't blame the refs. MAC refs are bad anyway, but BG had momentum the entire 2nd half, while we had poor shot selection and no D. We were headed for a loss; you could feel that midway through the 2nd half. The only problem with the Ts was the timing; coming late in the game it really deflated the balloon. I think there might not have been Ts if the one ref hadn't gotten a bloody nose out of it; they're not going to let something like that go unpunished. Oddly enough, it was likely someone from BG who gave it to him. But, it was Ohio players wading into BG's bench that was the catalyst, so they made Ohio players pay for it.
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Posted: 1/13/2016 10:40 AM

Saul's post-game press conference:

100%Cat
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Posted: 1/13/2016 10:41 AM
Something else nobody has really mentioned was the awful turnover before the scrum on a break. Jaaron saw Tony wide open for a dunk/layup which would have cut the lead to 2 at the time. Instead, he threw the pass way too hard at that distance, it goes through Tony's hands, turnover. BG scored on their next possession, and before you know it the lead that could have been down to 2 was back to 7 and the gap could never be closed.
OUVan
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Posted: 1/13/2016 10:46 AM
OhioBobcat wrote:expand_more
I'm getting a little tired of the complaining about the refs as if they were responsible for the outcome of the game.
While I agree that the refs didn't decided the outcome of the game they were incompetent and it can and should be discussed. It's okay to have more than one discussion on these boards.

1. The game was decided as soon as Simmons fouled Ali. Even without the ten point possession we lose that game. We can't stop anybody that is determined to score. We can't stop penetration to save our souls and our man help defense is terrible. Not only in that we can't help on defense but we can't get back to the guy we are supposed to be guarding if the ball is reversed. I could shoot 40% from three against our team.

2. We came out with fire and were working hard without the ball. That stopped after the first timeout. Looked like we got fat and happy. We hit some tough shots and that disguised the fact that we had stopped working. Treg Setty and James Gollon were the only two guys that looked like they wanted to work. Gollon is definitely a work in progress but at least he gave effort on both ends.

3. I am sorry but the outcome of that scrum was idiotic. I don't care what the rulebook says use some GD common sense. I can see possibly coming to the conclusion they did if there had been no replay but after watching the replay over and over that was a nothing event. Nothing really happened and there is no way you give one team a 10 point possession. You can't completely ignore the BG players tap-dancing on Jaaron's head (whether you deem it intentional or not). Frankly, I was pretty proud of our player's restraint. I think you give warnings to both benches and let it go. Somewhere someone is going to describe this game and say we lost our cool. We didn't and if I'm Saul I'm getting thrown out of that game. They were bad all game.

4. That charge call on Tony was horrific. How does a defender leave his feet, Tony start his drive and the defender get good position? He doesn't, that's how. That was a game changing call. I'm sure BG fans remember a few calls that went our way so I'm not going to say the refs were responsible for the outcome but that is as bad a reffed game as I can remember.
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Posted: 1/13/2016 10:47 AM
shabamon wrote:expand_more
I am a youth basketball official and just two days ago I received an e-mail about common sense officiating. Are you going to talk a player out of the three second lane when he has not been previously warned or are you going to issue a Barney Fife "Citizen's Arrest!" and call it immediately? Is it right to a call technical foul without warning when a coach stands two feet outside his coaching box? IMO, what we all saw last night was not common sense officiating.
Extra points for the Don Knotts reference.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 1/13/2016 12:12 PM
MonroeClassmate wrote:expand_more
. . . . When the momentum of a player crashes him into the stands, scoreboard or in this case the opponents bench, you'd think a ref or two would be right there to help the player out. Good refs can defuse these situations but instead this crew appear to sit on their thumbs.
Think that this is a good point.

To be fair, I did see one instance last night of ref help a player up, but not in this case where it was desperately needed. The other case was just a friendly gesture when the ref was standing right near the down player.
Ohio69
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Posted: 1/13/2016 12:27 PM
Thanks for posting the press conference. Coach Phillips impressed me with his comments.

I'm torn between sending in a small donation in honor of those 4 technical fouls (I didn't mind any of them and hoped coach would get another near the end just.... just because) and not sending that small donation because we just got thoroughly dominated at home after taking a big lead. Good grief.
GoCats105
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Posted: 1/13/2016 12:29 PM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
I'm getting a little tired of the complaining about the refs as if they were responsible for the outcome of the game.
While I agree that the refs didn't decided the outcome of the game they were incompetent and it can and should be discussed. It's okay to have more than one discussion on these boards.

1. The game was decided as soon as Simmons fouled Ali. Even without the ten point possession we lose that game. We can't stop anybody that is determined to score. We can't stop penetration to save our souls and our man help defense is terrible. Not only in that we can't help on defense but we can't get back to the guy we are supposed to be guarding if the ball is reversed. I could shoot 40% from three against our team.
There was two times last night in the second half where a BG player drove the length of the court and not one person stepped in to take a charge or at least make the shot tougher. Somehow, BG missed the one. But the other was so wide open that KK just stood there like "WTF" with his arms raised. He could have taken the charge, but he was so far out of position it was mind boggling.

It's like Ohio is daring teams to beat someone one on one.
71 BOBCAT
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Posted: 1/13/2016 3:44 PM
Just watched the coaches news conference and I have 1 observation that I would appreciate an answer on and a number of other concerns as comments of the coach.
Observation:
Whether it's BB or football we can never hear the question being asked? Why? And why can't it be corrected?
Comments on the coach:
It appears to me that he has a difficult time articulating his thoughts and it leaves me thinking negatively about his ability.
I feel that he second guesses himself quite a bit. This leads me to think that he doesn't have a lot of self confidence.
A good coach clearly knows the strengths and weaknesses of his players and sets in motion both a O and D that plays to those aspects. Case in point is with Tony, he has slow feet and therefore should not be attempting to do a lot of switching as he always seems to get to the spot late.

In conclusion Saul could learn a lot from Frank.



GO BOBCATS
SBH
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Posted: 1/13/2016 4:20 PM
Are you seriously saying that Saul is less articulate than Frank?

And on the subject of Tony, IMO it all depends on which Tony decides to show up on a given day. I've seen the passive, slow Tony several times over the past couple of years, including a 2014 game at BG where it seemed like he'd rather be anywhere but on a b-ball court.
Last Edited: 1/13/2016 4:23:47 PM by SBH
Ohio69
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Posted: 1/13/2016 7:03 PM
71 BOBCAT wrote:expand_more
Just watched the coaches news conference and I have 1 observation that I would appreciate an answer on and a number of other concerns as comments of the coach.
Observation:
Whether it's BB or football we can never hear the question being asked? Why? And why can't it be corrected?
Comments on the coach:
It appears to me that he has a difficult time articulating his thoughts and it leaves me thinking negatively about his ability.
I feel that he second guesses himself quite a bit. This leads me to think that he doesn't have a lot of self confidence.
A good coach clearly knows the strengths and weaknesses of his players and sets in motion both a O and D that plays to those aspects. Case in point is with Tony, he has slow feet and therefore should not be attempting to do a lot of switching as he always seems to get to the spot late.

In conclusion Saul could learn a lot from Frank.
GO BOBCATS
Wow. Did we watch the same press conference above? Not my impression at all. Oh well....
OU_Country
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Posted: 1/13/2016 11:20 PM
71 BOBCAT wrote:expand_more
Just watched the coaches news conference and I have 1 observation that I would appreciate an answer on and a number of other concerns as comments of the coach.
Observation:
Whether it's BB or football we can never hear the question being asked? Why? And why can't it be corrected?
Comments on the coach:
It appears to me that he has a difficult time articulating his thoughts and it leaves me thinking negatively about his ability.
I feel that he second guesses himself quite a bit. This leads me to think that he doesn't have a lot of self confidence.
A good coach clearly knows the strengths and weaknesses of his players and sets in motion both a O and D that plays to those aspects. Case in point is with Tony, he has slow feet and therefore should not be attempting to do a lot of switching as he always seems to get to the spot late.

In conclusion Saul could learn a lot from Frank.



GO BOBCATS


If I'm not mistaken, you also think he schedules "weak" to make his record look good to pad his own record.

If I have a complaint thus far with Saul, it's that his teams have yet to show to be even slightly above average on defense. Being unable to speak eloquently enough is far from a weakness for Saul in my opinion.
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 1/14/2016 9:34 AM
71 BOBCAT wrote:expand_more
Just watched the coaches news conference and I have 1 observation that I would appreciate an answer on and a number of other concerns as comments of the coach.
Observation:
Whether it's BB or football we can never hear the question being asked? Why? And why can't it be corrected?
Comments on the coach:
It appears to me that he has a difficult time articulating his thoughts and it leaves me thinking negatively about his ability.
I feel that he second guesses himself quite a bit. This leads me to think that he doesn't have a lot of self confidence.
A good coach clearly knows the strengths and weaknesses of his players and sets in motion both a O and D that plays to those aspects. Case in point is with Tony, he has slow feet and therefore should not be attempting to do a lot of switching as he always seems to get to the spot late.

In conclusion Saul could learn a lot from Frank.



GO BOBCATS
See people rocking
Hear people chanting
Feeling hot hot takes
Keep up this spirit
Come on let's do it
Feeling hot hot takes
It's in the air
Saul Phillip's rhyme
Like Geraldo Tweetin'
71's readin' minds
Last Edited: 1/14/2016 9:35:55 AM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
Casper71
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Posted: 1/14/2016 9:34 AM
I have said this on the Chat board a few times. My feeling is defense is the desire to play it and putting some effort into it. I see little evidence that the current players have have ever been taught/learned how to play good defense or that Saul has yet to be able to get his players to play defense consistently with effort and consistency.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 1/14/2016 9:40 AM
Casper71 wrote:expand_more
I have said this on the Chat board a few times. My feeling is defense is the desire to play it and putting some effort into it. I see little evidence that the current players have have ever been taught/learned how to play good defense or that Saul has yet to be able to get his players to play defense consistently with effort and consistency.
Agree - sadly.
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