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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Campbell on the Sook Center
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mf279801
4/14/2016 12:09 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Sook Center:
Number of student athletes = 400
Cost of building specifically made for student athletes = $5,800,000.
Cost per student = $14,500.

McCraken Hall Renovation:
Number of students majoring in Education = 1,600
Cost of building specifically renovated for Ed majors = $32,800,000.
Cost per student = $20,500.

those darned student athletes and their special treatment, when will it end?
Woah now, that's some pretty high level math for anyone who graduated from McCraken to process, let alone argue with

(I kid, I kid because I love...and because I don't respect the academic rigors of that discipline :-D)
I guess you never had a great and inspiring teacher Matt. And what pray tell was your major?
Hahaha, I never said anything of the sort. If you'll read what you actually quoted, you'll see that I my joke was directed at the academic field of education, rather than teachers in particular (not that I ever miss a chance to rib my educator friends). Though what a person's ability to do math has to do with whether or not they're an inspiring teacher is beyond me. Someone seems pretty sensitive.

(To answer your question, B.S. in Biological Sciences (Ohio '05) and a Ph.D. in Immunology).
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giacomo
4/14/2016 12:10 PM
I think in today's D1 landscape the athlete is worth more than the value of a scholarship, especially at the P5 level. I recall in 1981 when I moved to Ann Arbor for my first job the local rag ran an annual salary article where every UM employee's salary was posted. Bo Schembechler made 100k and the president made 105k. There was an unwritten rule at one point that coaches never made more than the president, which has vanished. In 2016 at 3% inflation, that salary is 282K, at 4% it's 395k. Take your pick. Jim Harbaugh's 2015 total UM compensation was 7M. Of course, both guys got some extra comp from booster groups, car dealer perks, etc., but we're in a different universe today. All of the kicked up locker rooms, food bars, athletic study centers, yada, yada, are non-monetary compensation. The difference between low Div 1 and P5. Since they can't pay the players directly, they do it another way. They know the basic scholarship is not cutting it. I'll bet the players would rather see some green.
Last Edited: 4/14/2016 12:11:02 PM by giacomo
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mf279801
4/14/2016 12:13 PM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
Sook Center:
Number of student athletes = 400
Cost of building specifically made for student athletes = $5,800,000.
Cost per student = $14,500.

McCraken Hall Renovation:
Number of students majoring in Education = 1,600
Cost of building specifically renovated for Ed majors = $32,800,000.
Cost per student = $20,500.

those darned student athletes and their special treatment, when will it end?
Wow. That's eye-opening, especially when you consider the private donations aspect to the Sook Center funding.
$28 million of the college of ed funding came from a private donor and after all, training teachers is a core mission of the university.
That is great. My point isn't that McCraken isn't a worthy venture. My point is that I do not respect the vast majority of criticism over the Sook Center when private donors are using their own money to the support the cause.

When it comes to money I worked to earn, "this cause is more worthy than that cause" is an argument that I not only find absurd, but also an argument that I do not respect.

Sook Center:
Number of student athletes = 400
Cost of building specifically made for student athletes = $5,800,000.
Cost per student = $14,500.

McCraken Hall Renovation:
Number of students majoring in Education = 1,600
Cost of building specifically renovated for Ed majors = $32,800,000.
Cost per student = $20,500.

those darned student athletes and their special treatment, when will it end?
Woah now, that's some pretty high level math for anyone who graduated from McCraken to process, let alone argue with

(I kid, I kid because I love...and because I don't respect the academic rigors of that discipline :-D)

I knew early childhood education majors who literally had to complete a coloring book for homework.
Exactly!
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Jeff McKinney
4/14/2016 12:24 PM
What about students who have crazy schedules and need help during off hours when Alden isn't open? Will Sook be open overnight? That's even more of a possibility for athletes with their schedules.

I wasn't an athlete but often burnt the midnight oil in the stacks on the 6th and 7th floors of Alden. Sometimes I could have used a study area at midnight but didn't have an option. What is the situation now? Does Baker have 24 hour areas for access to computers, printers etc? Will Sook address the schedules of athletes?
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Alan Swank
4/14/2016 12:38 PM
mf279801 wrote:expand_more
Sook Center:
Number of student athletes = 400
Cost of building specifically made for student athletes = $5,800,000.
Cost per student = $14,500.

McCraken Hall Renovation:
Number of students majoring in Education = 1,600
Cost of building specifically renovated for Ed majors = $32,800,000.
Cost per student = $20,500.

those darned student athletes and their special treatment, when will it end?
Woah now, that's some pretty high level math for anyone who graduated from McCraken to process, let alone argue with

(I kid, I kid because I love...and because I don't respect the academic rigors of that discipline :-D)
I guess you never had a great and inspiring teacher Matt. And what pray tell was your major?
Hahaha, I never said anything of the sort. If you'll read what you actually quoted, you'll see that I my joke was directed at the academic field of education, rather than teachers in particular (not that I ever miss a chance to rib my educator friends). Though what a person's ability to do math has to do with whether or not they're an inspiring teacher is beyond me. Someone seems pretty sensitive.

(To answer your question, B.S. in Biological Sciences (Ohio '05) and a Ph.D. in Immunology).
Why do you rib your educator friends?
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Alan Swank
4/14/2016 12:43 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
Alan...you judge how Div I programs operate by Div III standards. You have the right to that opinion, but athletics has a more prominent role at Div I schools and the athletes are treated in a commensurate manner. I'd suggest you seriously start lobbying your representatives in government and university boards to bring about the downgrading of athletics you desire at Div I.
Thanks for granting me that right Jeff. Prominent role? I'd contend distorted role. As for lobbying my local representative or board member, with the current clowns in Columbus now that's a waste of time and energy (just look at fracking waste or the bill that defunded Planned Parenthood) and we had a board member on here who just spewed the party line of spend more so we can keep up.

Forgive my rant because it's at this time of year that I continually hear about and from soon to be graduates that they have a ton of debt facing them in the very near future yet we continue to spend precious resources on and pamper 400 of their peers, the majority of whom leave here with little to no debt. When you are this close to it, it is a tad disturbing.
Not going to argue with you about any of this Alan. It would be fruitless and you would always have an answer for any statement. Easy example...you say 400 kids are talking to you and lamenting the debt free situation. You don't take into time the level of commit these kids have been doing since early age. Had any of those 400 committed to whatever skill they had...music, acting, finance...at the level the kids on scholarship had ...they too may have had financial help. I say that because I have an actor and an artist who found money because of their commitment and passion to get to school as much as their brother who played hoops. I am sure you will have a retort because you always to. Pie in the sky solutions to level the playing field and give free money to more kids will not work and folks will not quit supporting athletics at a huge level. If nothing else sways you how about Hall, Ricardo, DJ, Tony, Asown, Devo, Walt and a plethora of others that could be listed who would not have made it to college and prepared for the future without the ride the 400 you are talking to are lamenting? Point is, all those guys here put in time doing what they are good at to get the available ride. Can those who are tearing them down and letting jealousy show through say the same?

I always hate to put anything up here because it opens a flood gate that results in a crap storm where folks yell loudly with no real solutions...only pie in the sky ideas and "if the world was perfect" scenarios that don't really help things as much as they tear down what is. Personally , I will continue to work with kids who ain't got a pot to piss in to get their grades and skills in order to get one of those schollies that the students you talk to so detest. It is their only chance to get to school and a be, in most cases, the first person in their family with a degree.
I didn't say a thing about 400 kids telling me anything. I said two things 1) "it's at this time of year that I continually hear about and from soon to be graduates that they have a ton of debt facing them in the very near future" and 2) "we continue to spend precious resources on and pamper 400 of their peers." Those are both true statements. And spare us the humanitarian efforts of the great and powerful Tom. You'll have to excuse those of us who don't worship at the feet of a guy who claims to have known everyone who ever played basketball in Indiana for not agreeing with everything that you said especially when that same guy calls the kettle black by claiming you're "Not going to argue with you about any of this Alan. It would be fruitless and you would always have an answer for any statement."

So here's full disclosure folks - yes, I said in the chat room a few years back during an away game that your son doesn't play the greatest defense and one of your Indiana "spies" let you know that. You got pissed and have held it against me ever since. Let it go. He was a great shooter and big contributor to those teams. Let him stand on his own. He doesn't need you helicoptering all over him.
Last Edited: 4/14/2016 1:01:28 PM by Alan Swank
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BillyTheCat
4/14/2016 12:50 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
What about students who have crazy schedules and need help during off hours when Alden isn't open? Will Sook be open overnight? That's even more of a possibility for athletes with their schedules.

I wasn't an athlete but often burnt the midnight oil in the stacks on the 6th and 7th floors of Alden. Sometimes I could have used a study area at midnight but didn't have an option. What is the situation now? Does Baker have 24 hour areas for access to computers, printers etc? Will Sook address the schedules of athletes?
You think we are going to hire more academic staff to keep the Sook center open over night? Not a chance
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BillyTheCat
4/14/2016 12:52 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Alan...you judge how Div I programs operate by Div III standards. You have the right to that opinion, but athletics has a more prominent role at Div I schools and the athletes are treated in a commensurate manner. I'd suggest you seriously start lobbying your representatives in government and university boards to bring about the downgrading of athletics you desire at Div I.
Thanks for granting me that right Jeff. Prominent role? I'd contend distorted role. As for lobbying my local representative or board member, with the current clowns in Columbus now that's a waste of time and energy (just look at fracking waste or the bill that defunded Planned Parenthood) and we had a board member on here who just spewed the party line of spend more so we can keep up.

Forgive my rant because it's at this time of year that I continually hear about and from soon to be graduates that they have a ton of debt facing them in the very near future yet we continue to spend precious resources on and pamper 400 of their peers, the majority of whom leave here with little to no debt. When you are this close to it, it is a tad disturbing.
Not going to argue with you about any of this Alan. It would be fruitless and you would always have an answer for any statement. Easy example...you say 400 kids are talking to you and lamenting the debt free situation. You don't take into time the level of commit these kids have been doing since early age. Had any of those 400 committed to whatever skill they had...music, acting, finance...at the level the kids on scholarship had ...they too may have had financial help. I say that because I have an actor and an artist who found money because of their commitment and passion to get to school as much as their brother who played hoops. I am sure you will have a retort because you always to. Pie in the sky solutions to level the playing field and give free money to more kids will not work and folks will not quit supporting athletics at a huge level. If nothing else sways you how about Hall, Ricardo, DJ, Tony, Asown, Devo, Walt and a plethora of others that could be listed who would not have made it to college and prepared for the future without the ride the 400 you are talking to are lamenting? Point is, all those guys here put in time doing what they are good at to get the available ride. Can those who are tearing them down and letting jealousy show through say the same?

I always hate to put anything up here because it opens a flood gate that results in a crap storm where folks yell loudly with no real solutions...only pie in the sky ideas and "if the world was perfect" scenarios that don't really help things as much as they tear down what is. Personally , I will continue to work with kids who ain't got a pot to piss in to get their grades and skills in order to get one of those schollies that the students you talk to so detest. It is their only chance to get to school and a be, in most cases, the first person in their family with a degree.
I didn't say a thing about 400 kids telling me anything. And spare us the humanitarian efforts of the great and powerful Tom. You'll have to excuse those of us who don't worship at the feet of a guy who claims to have known everyone who ever played basketball in Indiana for not agreeing with everything that you said.
+1 on that
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
4/14/2016 2:03 PM
BobcatAttack.com: Because you missed all those strongly-worded letters to the editor that have slowly but surely disappeared from your sphere of reading experience.
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mf279801
4/14/2016 3:04 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Why do you rib your educator friends?
Lol, I rib all of my friends (And they in turn rib me right back). The educator friends were the only ones relevant to the discussion.
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Alan Swank
4/14/2016 3:34 PM
mf279801 wrote:expand_more
Why do you rib your educator friends?
Lol, I rib all of my friends (And they in turn rib me right back). The educator friends were the only ones relevant to the discussion.
So what exactly do you rib them about? As a former teacher and one who spends most days in the schools of America, I'm being sincere but curious when I ask that question.
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colobobcat66
4/14/2016 6:11 PM
I'm not an expert on bb defense, but I know that Tommy took a lot of charges.

Can we keep all the political stuff on other forums?
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perimeterpost
4/14/2016 7:24 PM
something to think about-

what is the difference between a student athlete and a member of the Marching 110?
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Lande71
4/14/2016 8:23 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Alan...you judge how Div I programs operate by Div III standards. You have the right to that opinion, but athletics has a more prominent role at Div I schools and the athletes are treated in a commensurate manner. I'd suggest you seriously start lobbying your representatives in government and university boards to bring about the downgrading of athletics you desire at Div I.
Thanks for granting me that right Jeff. Prominent role? I'd contend distorted role. As for lobbying my local representative or board member, with the current clowns in Columbus now that's a waste of time and energy (just look at fracking waste or the bill that defunded Planned Parenthood) and we had a board member on here who just spewed the party line of spend more so we can keep up.

Forgive my rant because it's at this time of year that I continually hear about and from soon to be graduates that they have a ton of debt facing them in the very near future yet we continue to spend precious resources on and pamper 400 of their peers, the majority of whom leave here with little to no debt. When you are this close to it, it is a tad disturbing.
Not going to argue with you about any of this Alan. It would be fruitless and you would always have an answer for any statement. Easy example...you say 400 kids are talking to you and lamenting the debt free situation. You don't take into time the level of commit these kids have been doing since early age. Had any of those 400 committed to whatever skill they had...music, acting, finance...at the level the kids on scholarship had ...they too may have had financial help. I say that because I have an actor and an artist who found money because of their commitment and passion to get to school as much as their brother who played hoops. I am sure you will have a retort because you always to. Pie in the sky solutions to level the playing field and give free money to more kids will not work and folks will not quit supporting athletics at a huge level. If nothing else sways you how about Hall, Ricardo, DJ, Tony, Asown, Devo, Walt and a plethora of others that could be listed who would not have made it to college and prepared for the future without the ride the 400 you are talking to are lamenting? Point is, all those guys here put in time doing what they are good at to get the available ride. Can those who are tearing them down and letting jealousy show through say the same?

I always hate to put anything up here because it opens a flood gate that results in a crap storm where folks yell loudly with no real solutions...only pie in the sky ideas and "if the world was perfect" scenarios that don't really help things as much as they tear down what is. Personally , I will continue to work with kids who ain't got a pot to piss in to get their grades and skills in order to get one of those schollies that the students you talk to so detest. It is their only chance to get to school and a be, in most cases, the first person in their family with a degree.
I didn't say a thing about 400 kids telling me anything. I said two things 1) "it's at this time of year that I continually hear about and from soon to be graduates that they have a ton of debt facing them in the very near future" and 2) "we continue to spend precious resources on and pamper 400 of their peers." Those are both true statements. And spare us the humanitarian efforts of the great and powerful Tom. You'll have to excuse those of us who don't worship at the feet of a guy who claims to have known everyone who ever played basketball in Indiana for not agreeing with everything that you said especially when that same guy calls the kettle black by claiming you're "Not going to argue with you about any of this Alan. It would be fruitless and you would always have an answer for any statement."

So here's full disclosure folks - yes, I said in the chat room a few years back during an away game that your son doesn't play the greatest defense and one of your Indiana "spies" let you know that. You got pissed and have held it against me ever since. Let it go. He was a great shooter and big contributor to those teams. Let him stand on his own. He doesn't need you helicoptering all over him.
Sorry, I got more quoted than I hoped for. Alan, I'm sure that students do have a mountain of debt when they leave with their degree. I am also torn about this! Are these the same kids who just got back from spending tons of money on a spring break trip? That money could have gone toward their debt, but they probably could not give up spring break? How much have they spent uptown and elsewhere on alcohol over their 4 or 5 years? These kids have made the decisions to be where they are re: debt. Now, they have to live with it or as a large % of graduates are doing - not paying back their loans.
When I went to OU there were few if any scholarship opportunities. I worked summers, etc. and with little help from my parents graduated debt free. I still find it difficult to donate to scholarship funds. These kids have it much easier than in the past. A lot of times scholarship recipients are the ones who can most afford to go to college in the first place.
I happened to be in Florida during OU's spring break. We visited Sanibel Island and stopped at The Bubble Room. Driving in right behind us was a Mercedes convertible with 5 OU girls there on spring break. They didn't appear too worried about debt.
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Alan Swank
4/14/2016 8:35 PM
perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
something to think about-

what is the difference between a student athlete and a member of the Marching 110?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWpND8GhBuU
Last Edited: 4/14/2016 8:36:37 PM by Alan Swank
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TWT
4/14/2016 10:05 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
Hmmm... this might be heresy, but if the obligations of a division 1 athlete are such that they can't get to the library (5 minute walk from Peden) or make mealtime, then maybe the NCAA should limit practice time a little more and have the student athletes return some focus to the academic portion of the "life". It sounds like I'm being sarcastic (partially because that's what I do) but I'm not.
Its athletic office space and a stadium improvement fundraised with the guise of a student athlete academic center. Sure its a space upgrade for the students but its only one element of the building. Engineering and Journalism with new buildings recently got upgraded study lounges. Having a dedicated study space is the new model for every academic unit.
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The Optimist
4/15/2016 7:26 AM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
Hmmm... this might be heresy, but if the obligations of a division 1 athlete are such that they can't get to the library (5 minute walk from Peden) or make mealtime, then maybe the NCAA should limit practice time a little more and have the student athletes return some focus to the academic portion of the "life". It sounds like I'm being sarcastic (partially because that's what I do) but I'm not.

Having a dedicated study space is the new model for every academic unit.
That is a good point. Every dorm also has dedicated study space too, and that seems to be the first thing they upgrade in old dorms. Study space everywhere...
Last Edited: 4/15/2016 7:27:03 AM by The Optimist
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Alan Swank
4/15/2016 7:29 AM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
Hmmm... this might be heresy, but if the obligations of a division 1 athlete are such that they can't get to the library (5 minute walk from Peden) or make mealtime, then maybe the NCAA should limit practice time a little more and have the student athletes return some focus to the academic portion of the "life". It sounds like I'm being sarcastic (partially because that's what I do) but I'm not.
Its athletic office space and a stadium improvement fundraised with the guise of a student athlete academic center. Sure its a space upgrade for the students but its only one element of the building. Engineering and Journalism with new buildings recently got upgraded study lounges. Having a dedicated study space is the new model for every academic unit.
Journalism got a renovated building not a new building Just out of curiosity, how many of you studied in a study lounge as opposed to your dorm or apartment room? I went to the library for research but not to study. Just curious. And since it's Friday, how many of you studied? :)
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Lande71
4/15/2016 7:42 AM
Studied every night on 3rd floor Alden except for when I went uptown only on weekends. Rarely if ever did I study anywhere else.
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The Optimist
4/15/2016 9:11 AM
5th floor of Alden for the heavy studying because that was quiet floor and I remember using the study lounge in my dorm heavily for accounting homework. I also used Copeland study lounge/computer rooms a decent amount because they had business-specific software I didn't have on my laptop.

I think that is a big reason there has been a shift from Alden-focused study-space to study-space spread around campus... It isn't like you need to go look at a book to study these days... A lot of the time, what you really need is quiet space to sit and work on your own computer OR to log onto a University computer to access their software or print something out.
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The Optimist
4/15/2016 9:15 AM
Lande71 wrote:expand_more
weekends

Weekends being defined as Wednesday through Sunday?
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C Money
4/15/2016 9:35 AM
What's this "studying" thing you guys are talking about? Is it that thing where I sat in front of my TV, drinking a beer, with my notes on the coffee table? :P


(To the extent I studied, it was usually in my room. I enjoyed my fortress of solitude. But I can only think of a handful of undergrad classes (Accounting, some of the advanced Finance courses, etc.) where I felt like I needed to study. Typically, I just went to class and learned the concepts the first time through.)
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bobcatsquared
4/15/2016 9:46 AM
There's a BA poster who rarely attended class and/or study, would show up on test days, and rarely end up with anything less than an A. I, however, would have to work my butt off going to class, taking notes, and studying to get anything close to what this guy achieved. I tried his way one quarter and almost flunked out. My dad told me either things would change for the better or I would have to live at home and commute to o$u.
Last Edited: 4/15/2016 9:48:21 AM by bobcatsquared
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Alan Swank
4/15/2016 12:16 PM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
There's a BA poster who rarely attended class and/or study, would show up on test days, and rarely end up with anything less than an A. I, however, would have to work my butt off going to class, taking notes, and studying to get anything close to what this guy achieved. I tried his way one quarter and almost flunked out. My dad told me either things would change for the better or I would have to live at home and commute to o$u.
That must have been a very hard major that you had one for which I bet you get a great deal of ribbing.
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Speaker of Truth
4/15/2016 2:45 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
I think in today's D1 landscape the athlete is worth more than the value of a scholarship, especially at the P5 level. I recall in 1981 when I moved to Ann Arbor for my first job the local rag ran an annual salary article where every UM employee's salary was posted. Bo Schembechler made 100k and the president made 105k. There was an unwritten rule at one point that coaches never made more than the president, which has vanished. In 2016 at 3% inflation, that salary is 282K, at 4% it's 395k. Take your pick. Jim Harbaugh's 2015 total UM compensation was 7M. Of course, both guys got some extra comp from booster groups, car dealer perks, etc., but we're in a different universe today. All of the kicked up locker rooms, food bars, athletic study centers, yada, yada, are non-monetary compensation. The difference between low Div 1 and P5. Since they can't pay the players directly, they do it another way. They know the basic scholarship is not cutting it. I'll bet the players would rather see some green.

This a pretty strong post right here. We can't lump all the athletes into one pool. Most Athletes are getting compensated very well with a scholarship, which is much more than their "worth". This would include just about every sport outside of Men's Basketball and Football.

When it comes to Football and Basketball where the school is seeing positive numbers from ticket sales, donations, sponsorships, TV money, etc, it is pretty easy to see that some players are worth much more than the value of the scholarship. The starting quarter back is worth much more to the school than the starting Middle on the Volleyball team or catcher on the baseball team(Although baseball isn't full scholarship). If you argue otherwise, I would love to hear it.

Also please note that the "Cost" of a scholarship to OU is not the 25K book price. Realistically these students are costing OU a much smaller fraction of that. Your left hand is paying your right hand, and the costs are already factored in.

Anyone who thinks this was built for anything other than marketing and hospitality is very mistaken. Also factor in that with this, it will now free up more space in the tower side for hospitality and office space.
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