Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Official Game 14 Thread: Buffalo
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OUVan
1/11/2017 9:25 AM
RSBobcat wrote:expand_more
KK deserves to get a POTW eventually this year!
I said in the chat room he might have good chance to beat out Tone for POY.....
It was a huge shot and he has been a huge weapon most of the year but I'd have to disagree with this. Personally, I don't think Kenny was even the player of the game. There were a couple of long stretches tonight where the only reason we weren't down by 25 was Gavin Block. He gets my game ball. And I loved seeing 9 guys getting double digit minutes tonight.
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bshot44
1/11/2017 10:26 AM
You don't get style points....but from a confidence standpoint, Ohio needed this. They needed to prove they can win on the road....win a close game in the final minute. After WKU, Iona and Marshall....another road dud would've been tough on the psyche.

What concerns me most coming out of this game...no surprise. The continued enigma of AC

2-4 FG...1-3 3ptr.

I know he fouled out (no surprise there). His 3rd this year. He has 4 or more fouls in 10 of 14 games this year.

It's the lack of post presence they get from him on offense.

Last 5 games

11-27 3ptrs
15-22 2pts

He's so damn good in the paint....why does he not just dominate down there. I just don't get it.

He's attempted almost more 3ptrs in the last 5 games (minus Urbana) than anyone else on the team!

28 - Dartis
37 - Kaminski

He's attempted almost more 3ptrs in the last five games than Simmons (32) has all season!

Is that a formula for success for this team? Maybe? They're 4-1 in those games?

I know I keep hammering this dead horse....but it's just so baffling to me. I'd think we'd be a far more complete offensive team with AC working the low block rather than only getting his 2ptrs off rolling to the basket off screens. That baby hook he has is deadly...and we see him chucking it from 22 feet more than he uses the hook.
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OhioStunter
1/11/2017 10:27 AM
Jason Carter with 8 boards and 7 points in 18 minutes.
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WishIWasAtLuckys
1/11/2017 10:27 AM
I think that anytime you come back from 14 down at halftime and find a way to win is awesome.

Hoping to be in the Roundhouse on Saturday - that would set up an awesome Akron game for the Bobcats.
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GoCats105
1/11/2017 11:02 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Jason Carter with 8 boards and 7 points in 18 minutes.
There were some on this board who didn't think Carter would be able to contribute at this level.
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OUVan
1/11/2017 11:14 AM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
He's attempted almost more 3ptrs in the last five games than Simmons (32) has all season!
He's also hitting 3's at a 41% clip in those games. Guess how many threes he took in our loss in those 5 games? 3. Are you really complaining because he went 6 for 9 against Western?

We've played 6 games where we either lost the game or won by fewer than ten points. In those six games he's averaging 10.2 two-point FG attempts. We've played 7 games where we've won by ten or more points. In those games he's averaging 5.8 two-point FG attempts. He averages more three point attempts in the 7 big wins than he has in the 6 losses or close wins (5.6 - 4.2). Your theory just doesn't bear out statistically. When we don't play well it's not because Tony is taking too many threes.
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bshot44
1/11/2017 11:37 AM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
He's attempted almost more 3ptrs in the last five games than Simmons (32) has all season!
He's also hitting 3's at a 41% clip in those games. Guess how many threes he took in our loss in those 5 games? 3. Are you really complaining because he went 6 for 9 against Western?

We've played 6 games where we either lost the game or won by fewer than ten points. In those six games he's averaging 10.2 two-point FG attempts. We've played 7 games where we've won by ten or more points. In those games he's averaging 5.8 two-point FG attempts. He averages more three point attempts in the 7 big wins than he has in the 6 losses or close wins (5.6 - 4.2). Your theory just doesn't bear out statistically. When we don't play well it's not because Tony is taking too many threes.
So basically I'm just not all-in on this new analytical basketball where a 3pt shot is much better than the 2pt shot over the course of a game. I get the metrics...but it just seems like walking a tightrope with no safety net.

If we have a guy who is a proven 60%+ FG from the paint....wouldn't you want him to take the majority of his shots from there?

Is 11-27 3pt and 15-22 2pt better than 5-15 3pt and 30-50 2pt?

That's not out of question..it's a 5-gm avg of 1-3 3pt FG (3pts) and 6-10 2pt FG (12pts) compared to 2-5 3pt FG (6 pts) and 3-4 2 pt FG (6 pts)

63 points vs. 75 points

It's just kind of fascinating (and frustrating) to see the reigning POY go from an inside force to becoming Craig Hodges. He attempted 5+ 3s only 9 times last year. He's already done it 7 times this year.

I guess this is just a shift in the offense. I just am not a huge fan of it.

I think the risk/reward is more than I'd like to see.

When you have 5 guys hoisting 3s....when they don't go down....what do you do?

Seems dangerous when you know you have a proven entity inside.

Would also think it would increase offensive rebounding and possessions having AC around the rim more?

Maybe I'm just a GET OFF MY LAWN guy when it comes to this new offense. (Which I find ironic because when I play pick-up basketball, all I do is hoist 3s, ha!)

But they're 11-3....so let's ride the wave.
Last Edited: 1/11/2017 11:39:46 AM by bshot44
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OU_Country
1/11/2017 12:01 PM
Bobcat1998 wrote:expand_more
We got killed on the glass, missed lots of free throws and turned the ball. Bobcats lack focus on the road.
That is the scary thing that we lack focus. Same problem last year. And we really do miss Treg. We have no fiery leaders. [/QUOTE]
The difference in this thread is fascinating to me. From this at 8:20pm to....








...This 34 minutes later, and it's pretty much all positive and happy from there on.



[QUOTE=chicagobobcat] Tony fouled out with about 6 mins to play and put up his worst stats in a long time. Yet we still erased a large deficit on the road and we are up 5 at the under 4 timeout. For our first road conference game of the year vs. the team that knocked us out in Cleveland last year, I have no complaints. Not questioning this team's heart/focus one bit. Obviously would love better starts, and Buffalo is seemingly trying their hardest to hand us this game. Plenty of things to improve on, but good teams find ways to win games. Let's pull this one out.
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OU_Country
1/11/2017 12:02 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Jason Carter with 8 boards and 7 points in 18 minutes.
There were some on this board who didn't think Carter would be able to contribute at this level.

Stop being so positive and optimistic man! The Optimist will be getting jealous. ;-)
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Andrew Ruck
1/11/2017 12:46 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
So basically I'm just not all-in on this new analytical basketball where a 3pt shot is much better than the 2pt shot over the course of a game. I get the metrics...but it just seems like walking a tightrope with no safety net.

If we have a guy who is a proven 60%+ FG from the paint....wouldn't you want him to take the majority of his shots from there?

Is 11-27 3pt and 15-22 2pt better than 5-15 3pt and 30-50 2pt?

That's not out of question..it's a 5-gm avg of 1-3 3pt FG (3pts) and 6-10 2pt FG (12pts) compared to 2-5 3pt FG (6 pts) and 3-4 2 pt FG (6 pts)

63 points vs. 75 points

It's just kind of fascinating (and frustrating) to see the reigning POY go from an inside force to becoming Craig Hodges. He attempted 5+ 3s only 9 times last year. He's already done it 7 times this year.

I guess this is just a shift in the offense. I just am not a huge fan of it.

I think the risk/reward is more than I'd like to see.

When you have 5 guys hoisting 3s....when they don't go down....what do you do?

Seems dangerous when you know you have a proven entity inside.

Would also think it would increase offensive rebounding and possessions having AC around the rim more?

Maybe I'm just a GET OFF MY LAWN guy when it comes to this new offense.
This conversation fascinates me. I'm a numbers first guy (duh, CPA). It isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

In your example of getting more points out of 50 2-point attempts instead of 22...if AC got to that point, the defense against him would shift dramatically and the percentage in the paint would drop. It's a balancing act, and my impression has been Tony isn't just camping out there jacking ill-advised 3s. He is taking what he is being given, and so far it seems despite his increase in outside shots, they are still heavily defended him in the paint. The second a team defends him on the perimeter, I would expect Tony to go to the paint more and take advantage of that opportunity.

It's all a matter of what is working, and I've come to trust in Tony's ability to take what is being given to him, and so far I just think they've given him the perimeter more, and his numbers show success out there.

Offensively, Tony is an absolute dream in every way for the MAC if you ask me. His limitation is his defense and the foul trouble that defense creates, which limits his offense. Full disclosure though...I am founder and present of the Tony Campbell fan club, founded during his freshman year when few were talking about him (look it up).

Old school vs new school, one thing you simply cannot ignore is 20 for 50 from 3 and 30 for 50 from 2 are absolutely the same thing.
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Jeff McKinney
1/11/2017 4:14 PM
Marshall coach Dan Dantoni is a complete believer in these metrics. Says the low post shot is the worst shot in basketball.
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bobcatsquared
1/11/2017 5:18 PM
I've always thought the attempt just inside the 3-point arc is the worst shot.
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mcbin
1/11/2017 6:10 PM
A bit more to add in the 3 vs 2 conversation - is that Tony is foul prone, and staying outside a bit more could potentially keep him in the game a few more minutes than if he was banging inside the whole time.

And on the flip side, a 60% from 2 & 40% from 3 is the same except the potential to draw fouls more with 2's, thus more points and detrimental to the opposition.
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Jeff McKinney
1/11/2017 7:04 PM
Last season, didn't Tonys foul troubles decrease as the season wore on? Hope that's what happens this season.
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OhioStunter
1/11/2017 7:15 PM
That may have been the ugliest game I've seen in a while, but here's what I liked about it:

-Took a punch in the mouth (almost literally) in the first few minutes and fell behind by 11
-Trailed big most of the game
-Made some key defensive stops
-Maintained composure during some heated moments
-Hit FTs when they needed to (technicals)
-Played well without Antonio
-Other guys stepped up
-Hit the big shots when they needed them
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OUVan
1/11/2017 7:18 PM
mcbin wrote:expand_more
A bit more to add in the 3 vs 2 conversation - is that Tony is foul prone, and staying outside a bit more could potentially keep him in the game a few more minutes than if he was banging inside the whole time.

And on the flip side, a 60% from 2 & 40% from 3 is the same except the potential to draw fouls more with 2's, thus more points and detrimental to the opposition.
You also have to work a heck of a lot harder down low and even if you don't get in foul trouble your minutes are limited because you get tired a lot faster.
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GoCats105
1/12/2017 8:51 AM
For anyone questioning TC's game, he's still ranked #31 in the ENTIRE COUNTRY in PER (Player Efficiency Rating). Of course this number isn't what it was last season, where I believe he finished in the Top Five or Ten of this metric. He could very well skyrocket up this list with a couple of his more "Tony-like" performances.

Interesting that Isaiah Johnson of Akron is really high on this list.

http://insider.espn.com/ncb/hollinger/statistics
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GoCats105
1/12/2017 8:53 AM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
So basically I'm just not all-in on this new analytical basketball where a 3pt shot is much better than the 2pt shot over the course of a game. I get the metrics...but it just seems like walking a tightrope with no safety net.

If we have a guy who is a proven 60%+ FG from the paint....wouldn't you want him to take the majority of his shots from there?

Is 11-27 3pt and 15-22 2pt better than 5-15 3pt and 30-50 2pt?

That's not out of question..it's a 5-gm avg of 1-3 3pt FG (3pts) and 6-10 2pt FG (12pts) compared to 2-5 3pt FG (6 pts) and 3-4 2 pt FG (6 pts)

63 points vs. 75 points

It's just kind of fascinating (and frustrating) to see the reigning POY go from an inside force to becoming Craig Hodges. He attempted 5+ 3s only 9 times last year. He's already done it 7 times this year.

I guess this is just a shift in the offense. I just am not a huge fan of it.

I think the risk/reward is more than I'd like to see.

When you have 5 guys hoisting 3s....when they don't go down....what do you do?

Seems dangerous when you know you have a proven entity inside.

Would also think it would increase offensive rebounding and possessions having AC around the rim more?

Maybe I'm just a GET OFF MY LAWN guy when it comes to this new offense.
This conversation fascinates me. I'm a numbers first guy (duh, CPA). It isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

In your example of getting more points out of 50 2-point attempts instead of 22...if AC got to that point, the defense against him would shift dramatically and the percentage in the paint would drop. It's a balancing act, and my impression has been Tony isn't just camping out there jacking ill-advised 3s. He is taking what he is being given, and so far it seems despite his increase in outside shots, they are still heavily defended him in the paint. The second a team defends him on the perimeter, I would expect Tony to go to the paint more and take advantage of that opportunity.

It's all a matter of what is working, and I've come to trust in Tony's ability to take what is being given to him, and so far I just think they've given him the perimeter more, and his numbers show success out there.

Offensively, Tony is an absolute dream in every way for the MAC if you ask me. His limitation is his defense and the foul trouble that defense creates, which limits his offense. Full disclosure though...I am founder and present of the Tony Campbell fan club, founded during his freshman year when few were talking about him (look it up).

Old school vs new school, one thing you simply cannot ignore is 20 for 50 from 3 and 30 for 50 from 2 are absolutely the same thing.
Well said, Andrew.
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GoCats105
1/12/2017 8:54 AM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Last season, didn't Tonys foul troubles decrease as the season wore on? Hope that's what happens this season.
You're correct Jeff.
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OUVan
1/12/2017 9:35 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
For anyone questioning TC's game, he's still ranked #31 in the ENTIRE COUNTRY in PER (Player Efficiency Rating). Of course this number isn't what it was last season, where I believe he finished in the Top Five or Ten of this metric. He could very well skyrocket up this list with a couple of his more "Tony-like" performances.

Interesting that Isaiah Johnson of Akron is really high on this list.

http://insider.espn.com/ncb/hollinger/statistics
Another interesting note is that Doug Taylor is top 10 in the MAC.
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
1/12/2017 10:05 AM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Last season, didn't Tonys foul troubles decrease as the season wore on? Hope that's what happens this season.
Wonder if it's a case of officials stressing points of emphasis early in the season inside and then letting things go in the paint as the season goes along.
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OU_Country
1/12/2017 10:05 AM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Marshall coach Dan Dantoni is a complete believer in these metrics. Says the low post shot is the worst shot in basketball.
And he offers all kinds of data to back up his opinion. I'm amazed that they've done as well as they have under him. I figured it to be a big train wreck, and it's looking like they're trending upward. For that reason, I give his thoughts and data on best/worst shots some credibility.
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Pataskala
1/12/2017 10:13 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
That may have been the ugliest game I've seen in a while, but here's what I liked about it:

-Took a punch in the mouth (almost literally) in the first few minutes and fell behind by 11
-Trailed big most of the game
-Made some key defensive stops
-Maintained composure during some heated moments
-Hit FTs when they needed to (technicals)
-Played well without Antonio
-Other guys stepped up
-Hit the big shots when they needed them
I think the composure aspect of it was key. Once the game got close, Buffalo really lost its composure. Lots of sloppy play, unforced errors and, of course, Perkins's mouth. In the past, I think we might've lost a game where we had the lead, then missed FTs helped the other team to tie it in the last minute. This team, though, has experience and confidence.

The officiating contributed to the ugliness. Very inconsistent. Called a lot of touch fouls but let a lot of the rougher stuff go. A sub-par officiating performance, even for the MAC.
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OUVan
1/12/2017 10:27 AM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I figured it to be a big train wreck,
I'm with you and I was still convinced of that until we played them last year. I came away from that game thinking that his style could really work if he can manage to get the right players.

Of course, the whole hiring process was a train wreck.
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
1/12/2017 11:08 AM
I liked the D'Antoni move because...it's Marshall basketball. If it's a disaster, it's a disaster. You're not screwing with the football program or anything. They haven't been to the dance since 1987. And that one doesn't even count. Billy Donovan wasn't there long enough to build anything. So you're talking decades of not really being relevant. That requires something outside the box. He has L.A. Lakers assistant on his résumé and a famous coach brother. Take a swing at it. It looks like it might work.
Last Edited: 1/12/2017 11:08:50 AM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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