Was there an impression that weren't in summer school even when the coaches weren't allowed to work with them? I brought mine down in June of 07 right after HS graduation. Was the day off the old Ox Roast. Kvk got off the plane that day. They were there all Summer from then on.... He had a mid term the next day after helping Rhodes and ku clean their offices out and meet Groce and holtmann the next day. I think they carried 6 hours each summer session

Well that's pretty possible. KVK came the day of the Ox Roast and I met you and Lou (and a number of great Bobcats that day) that day. Tommy and Devauhgn moved in with Mike Allen, Hester, Mo Pears, and Bert in early June for first summer session. In addition to classes, weights, open gyms all the new guys went over to help with a community event. http://www.ohiobobcats.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/07030... Point being they are on campus as soon as HS is over till they are seniors. Thanks for the memory jog.

EDIT faces in the gallery http://www.ohiobobcats.com/view.gal?id=12940 Interesting to look back and see

Not to bump this topic.....but I just wonder this.

IF Antonio Campbell was granted a another year of eligibility by the NCAA and then he turned around and said, "Thanks, Ohio...but I'm out" and transferred to Rutgers....would everyone that supports Simmons move to UM support AC as well?

Just curious. Since Campbell did in fact graduate, he could be eligible to transfer if they granted him a another year....

That's a pretty big "except".

Of course that second stat will probably change next year, but that won't make us feel any better.

The one thing I think Jaaron did better than DJ was he was stronger once he got to the rim and could finish more creatively. He had so many reverse layups with opposite hands that he finished behind the basket that left my jaw dropping wondering how he even got it up there. His outside shot was also a touch better than DJ, although DJ probably hit more "big shots" when it counted.

That all being said, Jaaron was a great PG for us. But DJ...you guys already know.

career statistics for 2 Ohio PGs. One is a legend, the other one is Fredo. name them.


Player A - 36.2min, 15.7pts, .449 Tot%, .473 2pt%, .373 3pt%, .758 FT%, 3.5reb, 7.2asst, 0.9stl, 3.9TO, .652 tot winning %.

Player B - 33.8min, 14.5pts, .380 Tot%, .437 2pt%, .322 3pt%, .742 FT%, 4.3reb, 6.5asst, 2.3stl, 3.1TO, .657 tot winning %.

Well...

The short take: College basketball makes it hard to enjoy college basketball.
The longer take: The Mid-American Conference (and Ohio by association, though to a lesser extent) are in a long, protracted death spiral. Players of Simmons's quality may come though less often. The MAC is kinda bad, Ohio is kinda mediocre, and ultimately it shouldn't surprise anyone if a really good program comes calling for someone and they decide to leave. What does OU have over Michigan? Weather? A better band?

Since 2002, here is Ohio's Kenpom numbers by year: 113, 168, 187, 85, 109, 125, 95, 169, 94, 150, 57, 82, 127, 232, 141, 105.

Since 2002, here's the MAC's Sagarin rankings by year: 11, 11, 15, 11, 13, 14, 12, 18, 15, 17, 15, 16, 12/19 (he started dividing by division to be difficult), 11/13, 13/14, 12/14.

Quite frankly, we've never been as good as we think we've been. And we can point to reasons or excuses... but you get to a point where that doesn't matter and all you have is the results. The MAC has had to fight furiously and make the best hires it possible could just to go to where it almost used to be... the problem is, the gap between, say, 8 and 11 is bigger than it was. And that gap is going to grow.

"This is all because of football!" Well, sure, but what do you mean? If you mean football is throwing trucks of money at middling power conference schools that enable them to spend on other programs, then yes, football is a factor here. If you mean the MAC and Ohio are throwing their money away on football and it's hurting basketball, I'm not so sure. I used to think that, but I'm looking at the Missouri Valley Conference. They don't have the football investment we do and they unquestionably have had more success than the MAC. Where did that get them? The loss of their best programs. Not sponsoring football seems to be less a vaccine than a palliative treatment that holds the pain off for a while. UNI is still kicking around (for now), but the MVC's days as mid-major ascendants are done. The Atlantic 10 isn't what it used to be, either, after the Big East split up. They don't play football either, but they have money. (I know most of these schools play football in some form; I'm talking about 1-A fubaw here.)

"Jim Christian ruined our opportunity in 2013!" Not really. First, there was no guarantee John Groce even gets us back to the tournament. We just don't know. Perhaps he holds practice at a different hour and DJ breaks his foot and the whole thing is shot. We probably lose to BG or something and don't go 14-2 in the conference. We probably don't beat Memphis anyway and we're hoping to win in Cleveland like always and who knows what happens on any given night? And if we do repeat, who do we draw? VCU would've licked us, too. Fact of the matter is, our tournament draw in 2012 was WAY more helpful than we had any reason to hope for. There's so much luck that goes into this and that's not a thing many want to admit.

Groce leaving was something largely beyond our control. So let's say Christian gets us back to the dance and we win another game or two. What after that? I don't see his recruiting getting and better. Here's the secret for a mid-major to rise to the national stage: You have to do it for more than one recruiting cycle. Every conference that's not a bottom feeder has a team that was really good for a couple years, then fell back to the back. There wasn't another DJ Cooper walking through that door. People point to Gonzaga and Butler. What they did was follow a once-in-a-generation coach with a once-in-a-lifetime coach who could bring in a superstar player to keep the momentum going. Both schools had to made *several* good runs in the tournament to be a national player. Seeing as we can count on one hand how many times that's happened at our level, appreciate how rare that is. It just wasn't going to happen in Athens, no matter how awesome it would be.

We're something like #120 in spending. And with some peaks and valleys, that's pretty much where we've been as a program. And that's not bad! There's a lot of debate on Saul as a coach. I think he's pretty good and most of the time we'll be in the high double digits or the low triple digits. Maybe one year we catch fire and get into the top 60 or something. I'm not expecting that as the norm because the history suggests that's not realistic.

So that's where we are: An OK program in a decidedly unexciting conference. And that's where we've been for a long time, if not always. There's two things to do about it: Find an Appalachian T. Boone Pickens or enjoy it for what it is. Most programs would trade their history for ours. Don't lose sight of that. We've gotten to witness some really cool stuff! I'm going to root for Ohio, be happy when they win, and be sad for a little bit when they lose. If that's not good enough for you, that's your right. Just be prepared to put something behind your words. And, for Heaven's sake, Golden Rule. What happened here? Everything here is just bitter fighting, trolling, and arguing. That's not what Bobcat Attack was. People wonder why some don't come around anymore. Maybe it's because they don't recognize the place and it doesn't seem like a good use of time or energy. That goes to the people here AND our former players. I hope Jaaron does well at Michigan; I think it makes us look better when our people succeed in other places rather than fail.

Just... just hope they find a way to replace that ESPN money when it runs out. Because it's going to get *real* ugly otherwise.

Post season record

Player A - 4-3 (MAC and CBI)

Player B - 13-6 (4-2 NCAA Tournament including win over Player A's Greener Pasture team)

I think we're all getting to the same conclusion, but it took different amounts of time. The MAC will be diminished, if not dissolved, in the coming years.

JSF's point about the MVC blowing up was one that struck me when I heard Valpo was joining. We always thought the goal was to build up a deep, talented conference with one or two nationally-recognized programs that made NCAA tournament appearances. What I didn't count on was that the way conferences expanded/shifted over the past decade meant that even if you did it perfectly, you'd just lose the best program in your conference and you'd be starting from scratch again.

The MVC did everything it possibly could to be a powerful basketball conference. Remember back in the mid-aughts when we were so excited to be playing Northern Iowa? That was a GET. We all posted we'd love to someday be invited into the conference. A decade later, would it even be that big of a step up from the MAC, with the losses of Creighton and Wichita State?

If Akron or Ohio had become a juggernaut, made back-to-back Sweet 16 runs and built a recruiting apparatus that made them a Baby Gonzaga...well, that program would've been poached. Keith Dambrot did everything he could to try to build one of those and that guy just waved the white flag a month ago and took the briefcase full of money after battling inevitable forces for a long time.

So, we learn to be happy on our little plot of basketball land here and try to build something sustainable, enjoyable and productive. That can still be done.

Very insightful. In thinking about Gonzaga and Butler, two things come to mind. Both are private schools in conferences very much better than the MAC, and neither has a FBS football program. How that factors into their hoops success I cannot quantify, but I think it means something.

I'll co-sign that. In particular, he makes great points about realistic expectations since 2010-2012, and this:

"What happened here? Everything here is just bitter fighting, trolling, and arguing. That's not what Bobcat Attack was. People wonder why some don't come around anymore. Maybe it's because they don't recognize the place and it doesn't seem like a good use of time or energy. That goes to the people here AND our former players."

Worthwhile to consider if we're a part of the problem or the solution related to that statement.

Very interesting posts, particularly from JSF. I truly wonder if anyone really saw the college sports arms race coming--say 15 years ago. We all know about the rise of college football and Nick Saban's $11,000,000 contract and his coordinators making over a million each. However, there are over 300+ Division I college basketball programs and many of the MAC's members are barely in the top half of the 300+.

If this is indeed an arms race a la the old Cold War then the MAC is increasingly just trying to get some notice from the the superpowers. In the old days the USA and USSR tried to persuade new allies to join. The non-aligned movement had some 100 members and bigger countries like India could quickly get the attention of the Super Powers. However, smaller nations rarely caught the attention of Moscow or Washington unless there was some big geo-political threat or help they could provide.

Increasingly, the only time we get attention is when one of the super power conferences notices one of our coaches and or graduate eligible players. They won't schedule us and increasingly it seems are engaging in some kind of old fashion Dean Smith Four Corners stall until the next TV deal makes us increasingly more irrelevant in their eyes. The descending Georgetown's of the world fear the rising schools like Dayton. Sadly, I don't see anyone fearing a rising MAC school.

It still could happen. A young coach might take Coach Danny Nee's words to heart and realize that he could have built a Final Four contender if he had stayed. It will take something like that to happen. In the meantime, let's enjoy what we have and hope some small miracles come to Athens and other MAC schools.