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General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events Topic
Topic: An assault on old OU
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cc-cat
2/7/2017 11:54 PM
cc-cat wrote:expand_more
And while some may argue that "that is why it is best left to local politicians" they are too often unaware at how politically charged and motivated local school boards and politicians are (they all want the stack of money) so checks and balances must be in place. [/QUOTE]
And therein lies the rub. You just dismissed the conservative point of view. How can we find common ground with that kind of dismissal?
Where did I outright dismiss the conservative view? I said there needs to be checks and balances which includes local, state and federal. If the premise of having any input at the federal level is dismissed because it is polar to conservative views then how can we find common ground? I also find it interesting that conservatives (not saying you) want decisions made at the local level, except when they go against them. Charlotte passes the now famous LGBT law for OUR community, but the state says it must be made in Raleigh. And pass a law that says local communities can not over-ride. And while we are at it, this same law says local communities can't have their own minimum wage. Power to the People...not.

Are you suggesting that I and others like me are not aware of local school boards, how they function, and how they are elected into office?
No - never said you or your buds - but yes, can name many that do not have an appreciation of the local corruption and incompetence. As a quick example, the mayor of Laurinburg, NC wants every teacher to live in the county for economic impact reasons. He has stated that he wants a law that says we will only hire and pay people who live in the county to teach, even if they have no education or qualification to teach. That's some smart governing.

[QUOTE=Robert Fox]How can a "check and balance" dictated by the federal government effectively apply to all local school districts?
I can make the same statement about the state level. Laurinburg, NC is very different than Charlotte. The first step is appreciating the complexity. and all groups having open minds. But we need to make education a cornerstone of our country's future. No one on here disagrees with that, the path is the debate. And here is the shocking news Republicans don't have it figured out. Democrats don;t have it figured out. Conservatives don't have it figured out and Liberals don;t have it figured out. We better all come together and leave our monikers and labels at the door and figure it out.

As Alan and Billy state above, the family is the critical element. Unfortunately family is not always a support. As a closing story (then I'm done - I'll leave this debate to my five relatives who are teachers), I grew up in western PA. Right smack in the political "T" in Pennsylvania. Rural and white. In fact there were no minority families in my county or the county next to us.

Went to school with a kid named Paul. One day in 8th grade, Paul came to school beaten and bruised. He was a solidly built kid. So we figured an older kid jumped him. He finally broke down and told us his dad had beaten him. Turns out that Paul had sneaked into his bedroom after dinner. And his father surprised him and caught him....doing his homework. "What are you doing Paul" "Ah nothing" "what are you doing" "ah I have some homework" "homework. You a smart guy. You think you're smarter than me. You think you're better than me." He then starting beating on him. "Who's better now? (whack) Who's better now? (whack) Who's better now? (whack) Who's better now? (whack) Who's better now?" (whack). By the way, Paul got a perfect score on his math SATs. Never did go to college.

We need great public education for kids like Paul. Is the system "right" now - no. Are vouchers the answer? Perhaps in some communities, but not others. Is shifting money from public schools to for profit schools the answer. Not from what I can see.

A kid in Mississippi needs to have the same access to a quality education as a kid in Rhode Island. And a kid in Laurinburg the same as the kid in Charlotte and the kid in West Charlotte the same as the kid in Myers Park.

And yes, to do that we need to get the best and brightest to be teachers. we need to seek them out and direct kids to the profession the same as we did for the sciences in the 60's and 70's. And then, gasp, we need to pay them well, and yes, then hold them accountable.

I'm a democrat and social liberal - and no, "my kind" don't have the answer. Republican and conservatives don't have the answer. And I'm 100% certain a lobbyist from Michigan does not have the answer, because as her hearing showed - she doesn't even know the questions.
Last Edited: 2/8/2017 12:04:33 AM by cc-cat
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Ohio69
2/8/2017 8:19 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
It starts with the family - their presence, their education and their money. It continues with educational leadership in the local school house and at the superintendent's level. Short of those things, all the money in the world won't solve the problems that some schools face.
Amen to that.
Last Edited: 2/8/2017 8:19:13 AM by Ohio69
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Robert Fox
2/8/2017 8:32 AM
CC, I agree with the vast majority of your post. The disagreement arises (most?) when we discuss where the control should reside.

This may surprise you, but I completely agree with you regarding the NC bathroom law being a Charlotte issue. Why? Not because I agree with the bathroom concept, but because of just what you stated: that the decision should be made at the local level, in this case Charlotte. If Charlotte wants that decision, then they should have it, and tell the state to pound sand. The state should say, "If that's what Charlotte wants, well, Charlotte gets it."

By the same logic, I think most local schools are equipped to make their own decisions. Are there state guidelines? Absolutely. But those guidelines should be few. Federal guidelines? No.
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Alan Swank
2/8/2017 9:38 AM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
CC, I agree with the vast majority of your post. The disagreement arises (most?) when we discuss where the control should reside.

This may surprise you, but I completely agree with you regarding the NC bathroom law being a Charlotte issue. Why? Not because I agree with the bathroom concept, but because of just what you stated: that the decision should be made at the local level, in this case Charlotte. If Charlotte wants that decision, then they should have it, and tell the state to pound sand. The state should say, "If that's what Charlotte wants, well, Charlotte gets it."

By the same logic, I think most local schools are equipped to make their own decisions. Are there state guidelines? Absolutely. But those guidelines should be few. Federal guidelines? No.
Most schools are not equipped to make their own decisions. The leadership often has a very narrow view of education and they think they are doing a good job. I've had the luxury of visiting 100's of schools over the last 35 years and there are tremendous gaps in curricular offerings and outcomes. I mentioned a school in Delaware County with a middle school broadcast journalism program in another post. Check out this newscast from a school I visited in Indiana. It rivals WOUB. Our local schools in SE Ohio don't even offer journalism 1.

http://www2.cps.k12.in.us/cptv/?woo_video=cptv-jan-11-2017
Last Edited: 2/8/2017 9:39:50 AM by Alan Swank
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DelBobcat
2/8/2017 11:02 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Exactly. Vouchers are really about creating two school systems. Separate and unequal. They will only exacerbate educational and income inequality.
Interesting allusion to a quote from the majority opinion in Brown V. Board of Education back in the most recent Civil Rights Era; however, I think it is misdirected. Why do black parents in the inner city overwhelmingly approve vouchers in virtually every survey that has been done of that cohort? It seems to me that they are saying they want to be able to send their children to a better school, rather than the one in their neighborhood. It's almost like volunteer rather than forced busing.
Because white Americans have fought hard to preserve a paradigm of completely unequal schools and de facto segregation? Parents want a voucher because it'll get their own kid out of the failing school, that's understandable. But it doesn't address the issue of why the school was failing in the first place and it leaves behind all of the kids who can't/won't be able to get a voucher. It leaves the systemic problem in place--that's the major issue.

In Philly, there is a program where kids from a poor neighborhood in North Philly spend a day in a rich suburban school. The idea behind it is to give the kids on both sides some perspective. But to me it seems cruel. You bus these poor kids out to a rich district for a day and the differences are stark. One kid in a news report I listened to talked about the fancy new football stadium in the suburban school and how he had cuts on his arms from practicing on his school's field, which is full of rocks and divots. He said visiting the suburban school made him wonder why society didn't care as much about him and his classmates as they did the suburban kids.
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OhioCatFan
2/8/2017 11:47 AM
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
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OhioCatFan
2/8/2017 11:50 AM
P.S. I agree that the Philly program might end up being counterproductive. Good intentions, but not well thought out. Seems to me to be the case with many, many government programs. And, we tend not to judge the results but the intentions when it comes time to reassess and fund for the next year.
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DelBobcat
2/8/2017 12:56 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
I'm not denying that corruption and mismanagement exists, but I think it is often used as a scapegoat. There is a constant chorus from Harrisburg that Philly School District is corrupt and inept and if they just got their act together they'd "clean up their act." But that's just not reflective of the actual reality in this city. The actual reality is that PSD spends about $13,000 per pupil, while Lower Merion (a wealthy suburban district abutting the city) spends about $28,000 per pupil. So Lower Merion spend more than twice as much and has very few special needs or high poverty students, while Philly is full of special needs and high poverty students and is expected to do more with less. I find it appalling that inequality like that exists in this country.

And it's not just Philly either. Looking at 2012 data (the newest I can find) it appears that Eastern Local SD in Meigs County spent about $5,500 per pupil, while Beachwood City SD in Cuyahoga County spent about $19,000 per pupil. It's not hard to imagine which students have a better outcome. My own experience is that I graduated from Ohio Valley Local SD in Adams County ($9,100 per pupil) and came to Ohio University woefully unprepared because my school didn't offer AP classes or other opportunities that the (mostly suburban) students surrounding me had. And I was a lucky one because I had involved parents. When you combine lack of resources with uninvolved parents you get a recipe for disaster. Many of my high school classmates ended up addicted to drugs or dead as a result.
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Monroe Slavin
2/9/2017 1:41 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Exactly. Vouchers are really about creating two school systems. Separate and unequal. They will only exacerbate educational and income inequality.
Interesting allusion to a quote from the majority opinion in Brown V. Board of Education back in the most recent Civil Rights Era; however, I think it is misdirected. Why do black parents in the inner city overwhelmingly approve vouchers in virtually every survey that has been done of that cohort? It seems to me that they are saying they want to be able to send their children to a better school, rather than the one in their neighborhood. It's almost like volunteer rather than forced busing.

But OCF, what about the actualities of these surveyed parents in terms of available options?

That is, aren't the parents really saying that they want better schools for their kids? Who wouldn't say that?

But are they near 'voucher' such that transportation means and time make them realistic options? What about all the costs (tuition, books, clothing, activities, facilities, etc)--do the vouchers cover that? Are the alternative/voucher schools actually any good?


Everyone is going to answer a poll that asks something like 'do you want your kids to have better education options for your kids?' in the affirmative. That's a long, long way from there actually being such alternatives. There may be such alternatives...or there may not.
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OhioCatFan
2/9/2017 11:05 AM
Monroe, I think these parents after years -- in some cases generations -- of frustration, see vouchers as one of the few options that appears to have a chance of working. They see it as a way to hold the local schools accountable. If a robust voucher program was in place, just the threat of mass migrations from the failing local school might bring about some needed reform. Power to the people!
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BillyTheCat
2/9/2017 11:20 AM
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
I'm not denying that corruption and mismanagement exists, but I think it is often used as a scapegoat. There is a constant chorus from Harrisburg that Philly School District is corrupt and inept and if they just got their act together they'd "clean up their act." But that's just not reflective of the actual reality in this city. The actual reality is that PSD spends about $13,000 per pupil, while Lower Merion (a wealthy suburban district abutting the city) spends about $28,000 per pupil. So Lower Merion spend more than twice as much and has very few special needs or high poverty students, while Philly is full of special needs and high poverty students and is expected to do more with less. I find it appalling that inequality like that exists in this country.

And it's not just Philly either. Looking at 2012 data (the newest I can find) it appears that Eastern Local SD in Meigs County spent about $5,500 per pupil, while Beachwood City SD in Cuyahoga County spent about $19,000 per pupil. It's not hard to imagine which students have a better outcome. My own experience is that I graduated from Ohio Valley Local SD in Adams County ($9,100 per pupil) and came to Ohio University woefully unprepared because my school didn't offer AP classes or other opportunities that the (mostly suburban) students surrounding me had. And I was a lucky one because I had involved parents. When you combine lack of resources with uninvolved parents you get a recipe for disaster. Many of my high school classmates ended up addicted to drugs or dead as a result.
+1

And the troubling part of DeVos confirmation interviews was her refusal to answer the question regarding the rights of those with special needs, and the standards being applied equally across the board.
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Alan Swank
2/9/2017 11:53 AM
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
I'm not denying that corruption and mismanagement exists, but I think it is often used as a scapegoat. There is a constant chorus from Harrisburg that Philly School District is corrupt and inept and if they just got their act together they'd "clean up their act." But that's just not reflective of the actual reality in this city. The actual reality is that PSD spends about $13,000 per pupil, while Lower Merion (a wealthy suburban district abutting the city) spends about $28,000 per pupil. So Lower Merion spend more than twice as much and has very few special needs or high poverty students, while Philly is full of special needs and high poverty students and is expected to do more with less. I find it appalling that inequality like that exists in this country.

And it's not just Philly either. Looking at 2012 data (the newest I can find) it appears that Eastern Local SD in Meigs County spent about $5,500 per pupil, while Beachwood City SD in Cuyahoga County spent about $19,000 per pupil. It's not hard to imagine which students have a better outcome. My own experience is that I graduated from Ohio Valley Local SD in Adams County ($9,100 per pupil) and came to Ohio University woefully unprepared because my school didn't offer AP classes or other opportunities that the (mostly suburban) students surrounding me had. And I was a lucky one because I had involved parents. When you combine lack of resources with uninvolved parents you get a recipe for disaster. Many of my high school classmates ended up addicted to drugs or dead as a result.
For 2015 - 2016, Meigs Eastern was at $8283 and Ohio Valley was at $7876. The state average was $8840. OV got 69% of it's money and 15% from local sources. Eastern was at 66% and 15%. For comparison sake, those of us in Athens pay 54% and the state pays 28% and we spend $9664 per pupil. All numbers are from the most recent Ohio report cards.
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DelBobcat
2/10/2017 9:45 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
I'm not denying that corruption and mismanagement exists, but I think it is often used as a scapegoat. There is a constant chorus from Harrisburg that Philly School District is corrupt and inept and if they just got their act together they'd "clean up their act." But that's just not reflective of the actual reality in this city. The actual reality is that PSD spends about $13,000 per pupil, while Lower Merion (a wealthy suburban district abutting the city) spends about $28,000 per pupil. So Lower Merion spend more than twice as much and has very few special needs or high poverty students, while Philly is full of special needs and high poverty students and is expected to do more with less. I find it appalling that inequality like that exists in this country.

And it's not just Philly either. Looking at 2012 data (the newest I can find) it appears that Eastern Local SD in Meigs County spent about $5,500 per pupil, while Beachwood City SD in Cuyahoga County spent about $19,000 per pupil. It's not hard to imagine which students have a better outcome. My own experience is that I graduated from Ohio Valley Local SD in Adams County ($9,100 per pupil) and came to Ohio University woefully unprepared because my school didn't offer AP classes or other opportunities that the (mostly suburban) students surrounding me had. And I was a lucky one because I had involved parents. When you combine lack of resources with uninvolved parents you get a recipe for disaster. Many of my high school classmates ended up addicted to drugs or dead as a result.
For 2015 - 2016, Meigs Eastern was at $8283 and Ohio Valley was at $7876. The state average was $8840. OV got 69% of it's money and 15% from local sources. Eastern was at 66% and 15%. For comparison sake, those of us in Athens pay 54% and the state pays 28% and we spend $9664 per pupil. All numbers are from the most recent Ohio report cards.
Thanks for the updated numbers. I'm curious why the state pays such a higher percentage in Athens. Any insights? Looking at the 2016 Report Cards and I see that Beachwood was at $16,800.
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DelBobcat
2/10/2017 10:38 AM
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
I'm not denying that corruption and mismanagement exists, but I think it is often used as a scapegoat. There is a constant chorus from Harrisburg that Philly School District is corrupt and inept and if they just got their act together they'd "clean up their act." But that's just not reflective of the actual reality in this city. The actual reality is that PSD spends about $13,000 per pupil, while Lower Merion (a wealthy suburban district abutting the city) spends about $28,000 per pupil. So Lower Merion spend more than twice as much and has very few special needs or high poverty students, while Philly is full of special needs and high poverty students and is expected to do more with less. I find it appalling that inequality like that exists in this country.

And it's not just Philly either. Looking at 2012 data (the newest I can find) it appears that Eastern Local SD in Meigs County spent about $5,500 per pupil, while Beachwood City SD in Cuyahoga County spent about $19,000 per pupil. It's not hard to imagine which students have a better outcome. My own experience is that I graduated from Ohio Valley Local SD in Adams County ($9,100 per pupil) and came to Ohio University woefully unprepared because my school didn't offer AP classes or other opportunities that the (mostly suburban) students surrounding me had. And I was a lucky one because I had involved parents. When you combine lack of resources with uninvolved parents you get a recipe for disaster. Many of my high school classmates ended up addicted to drugs or dead as a result.
For 2015 - 2016, Meigs Eastern was at $8283 and Ohio Valley was at $7876. The state average was $8840. OV got 69% of it's money and 15% from local sources. Eastern was at 66% and 15%. For comparison sake, those of us in Athens pay 54% and the state pays 28% and we spend $9664 per pupil. All numbers are from the most recent Ohio report cards.
Thanks for the updated numbers. I'm curious why the state pays such a higher percentage in Athens. Any insights? Looking at the 2016 Report Cards and I see that Beachwood was at $16,800.
I think I misread your post. I think you meant to say "OV got 69% of its money from the state and 15% from local sources." And the proportion is reversed in Athens. That makes more sense to me intuitively.
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Alan Swank
2/10/2017 11:12 AM
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
I'm not denying that corruption and mismanagement exists, but I think it is often used as a scapegoat. There is a constant chorus from Harrisburg that Philly School District is corrupt and inept and if they just got their act together they'd "clean up their act." But that's just not reflective of the actual reality in this city. The actual reality is that PSD spends about $13,000 per pupil, while Lower Merion (a wealthy suburban district abutting the city) spends about $28,000 per pupil. So Lower Merion spend more than twice as much and has very few special needs or high poverty students, while Philly is full of special needs and high poverty students and is expected to do more with less. I find it appalling that inequality like that exists in this country.

And it's not just Philly either. Looking at 2012 data (the newest I can find) it appears that Eastern Local SD in Meigs County spent about $5,500 per pupil, while Beachwood City SD in Cuyahoga County spent about $19,000 per pupil. It's not hard to imagine which students have a better outcome. My own experience is that I graduated from Ohio Valley Local SD in Adams County ($9,100 per pupil) and came to Ohio University woefully unprepared because my school didn't offer AP classes or other opportunities that the (mostly suburban) students surrounding me had. And I was a lucky one because I had involved parents. When you combine lack of resources with uninvolved parents you get a recipe for disaster. Many of my high school classmates ended up addicted to drugs or dead as a result.
For 2015 - 2016, Meigs Eastern was at $8283 and Ohio Valley was at $7876. The state average was $8840. OV got 69% of it's money and 15% from local sources. Eastern was at 66% and 15%. For comparison sake, those of us in Athens pay 54% and the state pays 28% and we spend $9664 per pupil. All numbers are from the most recent Ohio report cards.
Thanks for the updated numbers. I'm curious why the state pays such a higher percentage in Athens. Any insights? Looking at the 2016 Report Cards and I see that Beachwood was at $16,800.
I think I misread your post. I think you meant to say "OV got 69% of its money from the state and 15% from local sources." And the proportion is reversed in Athens. That makes more sense to me intuitively.
Right I accidentally left out from the state. Yes, we pay a lot more locally and I'm afraid are nearing the tipping point for continued "blind" support for school levies. My guess is that OCF would agree with me even though we sit on different sides of the proverbial aisle.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
2/10/2017 11:47 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
...been short changed by an elitist, leftist cabal in DC, whose only goal is to control people and not educate or help them.
Are you out of your f***ing mind? Really?

If republicans put half as much energy into actual education as they do trying to shove the Bible into public education, we might be in a better spot. The education issues definitely deserve blame from both sides, but the idea that liberals are trying to control people? Yeah, that's rich. If republicans ever had an alternate name it would be "thought police".
You seem to be lost in the 1960s, or even earlier. The thought police today are clearly on the left. Look what just happened at UC-Beserkley. If you don't toe the liberal line you have no right to speak. The leftist thugs didn't want to attend his talk and then engage in questions and try to show intellectually the superiority of their arguments. They wanted to silence his speech. This on the campus that was once the birthplace of the free-speech movement. We are very much in danger of fascism of the left in this country. As you may recall from political science classes, the far-right and far-left have much in common and occupy close to the same space on the political spectrum.
There's a clear difference between Antifa anarchists and Cal Berkeley students. You can either be honest about that and and participate in a genuine conversation about the policing of free speech, or you can try to case those actions as being representative of the left as a whole and bring nothing to the conversation. Your choice.

I'd also ask this: is this truly a "fascism of the left" issue? What about when holiday coffee cups at Starbucks are the wrong color, or an SNL writer makes an off-color joke and is forced to resign, or Obama strategically doesn't use the phrase "islamic terrorism" and conservatives poop their drawers for 8 months, or Netflix launches a comedy called Dear White People and there's a boycott, or Colin Kaepernick kneels during the national anthem and becomes public enemy #1, or the Trump Administration tells us that nobody can even suggest that the recent mission in Yemen wasn't a success without being unpatriotic.

Aren't those equally egregious examples of conservatives acting like little "snowflakes" and getting outraged by speech they disagree with?

There's a culture of outrage in this country. Trying to pretend it only exists in one party is self-aggrandizing garbage.
Last Edited: 2/10/2017 11:50:31 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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BillyTheCat
2/10/2017 11:57 AM
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
I'm not denying that corruption and mismanagement exists, but I think it is often used as a scapegoat. There is a constant chorus from Harrisburg that Philly School District is corrupt and inept and if they just got their act together they'd "clean up their act." But that's just not reflective of the actual reality in this city. The actual reality is that PSD spends about $13,000 per pupil, while Lower Merion (a wealthy suburban district abutting the city) spends about $28,000 per pupil. So Lower Merion spend more than twice as much and has very few special needs or high poverty students, while Philly is full of special needs and high poverty students and is expected to do more with less. I find it appalling that inequality like that exists in this country.

And it's not just Philly either. Looking at 2012 data (the newest I can find) it appears that Eastern Local SD in Meigs County spent about $5,500 per pupil, while Beachwood City SD in Cuyahoga County spent about $19,000 per pupil. It's not hard to imagine which students have a better outcome. My own experience is that I graduated from Ohio Valley Local SD in Adams County ($9,100 per pupil) and came to Ohio University woefully unprepared because my school didn't offer AP classes or other opportunities that the (mostly suburban) students surrounding me had. And I was a lucky one because I had involved parents. When you combine lack of resources with uninvolved parents you get a recipe for disaster. Many of my high school classmates ended up addicted to drugs or dead as a result.
For 2015 - 2016, Meigs Eastern was at $8283 and Ohio Valley was at $7876. The state average was $8840. OV got 69% of it's money and 15% from local sources. Eastern was at 66% and 15%. For comparison sake, those of us in Athens pay 54% and the state pays 28% and we spend $9664 per pupil. All numbers are from the most recent Ohio report cards.
Thanks for the updated numbers. I'm curious why the state pays such a higher percentage in Athens. Any insights? Looking at the 2016 Report Cards and I see that Beachwood was at $16,800.
I think I misread your post. I think you meant to say "OV got 69% of its money from the state and 15% from local sources." And the proportion is reversed in Athens. That makes more sense to me intuitively.
This is a HUGE burden to the local community, not just the residents, but to the business community and respective employers. Due to so much of the local property being tax free (either University or Federal land) that the area is seen by some as anti-business. However, the issue is largely created by the State itself.
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DelBobcat
2/10/2017 12:02 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
I'm not denying that corruption and mismanagement exists, but I think it is often used as a scapegoat. There is a constant chorus from Harrisburg that Philly School District is corrupt and inept and if they just got their act together they'd "clean up their act." But that's just not reflective of the actual reality in this city. The actual reality is that PSD spends about $13,000 per pupil, while Lower Merion (a wealthy suburban district abutting the city) spends about $28,000 per pupil. So Lower Merion spend more than twice as much and has very few special needs or high poverty students, while Philly is full of special needs and high poverty students and is expected to do more with less. I find it appalling that inequality like that exists in this country.

And it's not just Philly either. Looking at 2012 data (the newest I can find) it appears that Eastern Local SD in Meigs County spent about $5,500 per pupil, while Beachwood City SD in Cuyahoga County spent about $19,000 per pupil. It's not hard to imagine which students have a better outcome. My own experience is that I graduated from Ohio Valley Local SD in Adams County ($9,100 per pupil) and came to Ohio University woefully unprepared because my school didn't offer AP classes or other opportunities that the (mostly suburban) students surrounding me had. And I was a lucky one because I had involved parents. When you combine lack of resources with uninvolved parents you get a recipe for disaster. Many of my high school classmates ended up addicted to drugs or dead as a result.
For 2015 - 2016, Meigs Eastern was at $8283 and Ohio Valley was at $7876. The state average was $8840. OV got 69% of it's money and 15% from local sources. Eastern was at 66% and 15%. For comparison sake, those of us in Athens pay 54% and the state pays 28% and we spend $9664 per pupil. All numbers are from the most recent Ohio report cards.
Thanks for the updated numbers. I'm curious why the state pays such a higher percentage in Athens. Any insights? Looking at the 2016 Report Cards and I see that Beachwood was at $16,800.
I think I misread your post. I think you meant to say "OV got 69% of its money from the state and 15% from local sources." And the proportion is reversed in Athens. That makes more sense to me intuitively.
Right I accidentally left out from the state. Yes, we pay a lot more locally and I'm afraid are nearing the tipping point for continued "blind" support for school levies. My guess is that OCF would agree with me even though we sit on different sides of the proverbial aisle.
Yes, and I would argue that we need to shit the burden away from local property taxes and toward the state. That way local property owners in certain areas aren't unfairly burdened and we can also have a more equal amount of spending across the state.
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BillyTheCat
2/10/2017 12:04 PM
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
DelBobcat, some interesting stuff in your reply.

IMHO, I think a widely available voucher program might in the very short term have the effect that you envision. However, I think after a year or two of grumbling, the school that is losing students because of the migration to better schools would get the message and start to clean up its act. It's my sense that a lot of these failing schools are failing not so much due to lack of money as due to gross mismanagement and some level of corruption. And, let me be clear, I'm not talking just about inner city schools. There's a lot of mismanagement and corruption in school systems right here in Southeastern Ohio. A number of years ago I witnessed first-hand what could only be called embezzlement in one SEO school. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to do much about it at that time.
I'm not denying that corruption and mismanagement exists, but I think it is often used as a scapegoat. There is a constant chorus from Harrisburg that Philly School District is corrupt and inept and if they just got their act together they'd "clean up their act." But that's just not reflective of the actual reality in this city. The actual reality is that PSD spends about $13,000 per pupil, while Lower Merion (a wealthy suburban district abutting the city) spends about $28,000 per pupil. So Lower Merion spend more than twice as much and has very few special needs or high poverty students, while Philly is full of special needs and high poverty students and is expected to do more with less. I find it appalling that inequality like that exists in this country.

And it's not just Philly either. Looking at 2012 data (the newest I can find) it appears that Eastern Local SD in Meigs County spent about $5,500 per pupil, while Beachwood City SD in Cuyahoga County spent about $19,000 per pupil. It's not hard to imagine which students have a better outcome. My own experience is that I graduated from Ohio Valley Local SD in Adams County ($9,100 per pupil) and came to Ohio University woefully unprepared because my school didn't offer AP classes or other opportunities that the (mostly suburban) students surrounding me had. And I was a lucky one because I had involved parents. When you combine lack of resources with uninvolved parents you get a recipe for disaster. Many of my high school classmates ended up addicted to drugs or dead as a result.
For 2015 - 2016, Meigs Eastern was at $8283 and Ohio Valley was at $7876. The state average was $8840. OV got 69% of it's money and 15% from local sources. Eastern was at 66% and 15%. For comparison sake, those of us in Athens pay 54% and the state pays 28% and we spend $9664 per pupil. All numbers are from the most recent Ohio report cards.
Thanks for the updated numbers. I'm curious why the state pays such a higher percentage in Athens. Any insights? Looking at the 2016 Report Cards and I see that Beachwood was at $16,800.
I think I misread your post. I think you meant to say "OV got 69% of its money from the state and 15% from local sources." And the proportion is reversed in Athens. That makes more sense to me intuitively.
Right I accidentally left out from the state. Yes, we pay a lot more locally and I'm afraid are nearing the tipping point for continued "blind" support for school levies. My guess is that OCF would agree with me even though we sit on different sides of the proverbial aisle.
Yes, and I would argue that we need to shit the burden away from local property taxes and toward the state. That way local property owners in certain areas aren't unfairly burdened and we can also have a more equal amount of spending across the state.

Hmmmm.....sounds like what the OHIO Supreme Court ruled in 1996, and ever legislator and governor since has conveniently ignored!
mail
OhioCatFan
2/10/2017 12:33 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
...been short changed by an elitist, leftist cabal in DC, whose only goal is to control people and not educate or help them.
Are you out of your f***ing mind? Really?

If republicans put half as much energy into actual education as they do trying to shove the Bible into public education, we might be in a better spot. The education issues definitely deserve blame from both sides, but the idea that liberals are trying to control people? Yeah, that's rich. If republicans ever had an alternate name it would be "thought police".
You seem to be lost in the 1960s, or even earlier. The thought police today are clearly on the left. Look what just happened at UC-Beserkley. If you don't toe the liberal line you have no right to speak. The leftist thugs didn't want to attend his talk and then engage in questions and try to show intellectually the superiority of their arguments. They wanted to silence his speech. This on the campus that was once the birthplace of the free-speech movement. We are very much in danger of fascism of the left in this country. As you may recall from political science classes, the far-right and far-left have much in common and occupy close to the same space on the political spectrum.
There's a clear difference between Antifa anarchists and Cal Berkeley students. You can either be honest about that and and participate in a genuine conversation about the policing of free speech, or you can try to case those actions as being representative of the left as a whole and bring nothing to the conversation. Your choice.

I'd also ask this: is this truly a "fascism of the left" issue? What about when holiday coffee cups at Starbucks are the wrong color, or an SNL writer makes an off-color joke and is forced to resign, or Obama strategically doesn't use the phrase "islamic terrorism" and conservatives poop their drawers for 8 months, or Netflix launches a comedy called Dear White People and there's a boycott, or Colin Kaepernick kneels during the national anthem and becomes public enemy #1, or the Trump Administration tells us that nobody can even suggest that the recent mission in Yemen wasn't a success without being unpatriotic.

Aren't those equally egregious examples of conservatives acting like little "snowflakes" and getting outraged by speech they disagree with?

There's a culture of outrage in this country. Trying to pretend it only exists in one party is self-aggrandizing garbage.
I didn't see the UCB students do anything to try and stop the destruction, or to stand up for the right of a man whose message they didn't like, to speak. That would have been in the spirit of the Free Speech Movement. The examples you give are all interesting and illustrative but none of them involve physical violence to silence dissenting speech. It's mainly speech against speech. Boycotts are, in essence, a form of symbolic speech, just like burning the U.S. flag is symbolic speech (see U.S. Supreme Court decisions).
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person
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
2/10/2017 12:37 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
...been short changed by an elitist, leftist cabal in DC, whose only goal is to control people and not educate or help them.
Are you out of your f***ing mind? Really?

If republicans put half as much energy into actual education as they do trying to shove the Bible into public education, we might be in a better spot. The education issues definitely deserve blame from both sides, but the idea that liberals are trying to control people? Yeah, that's rich. If republicans ever had an alternate name it would be "thought police".
You seem to be lost in the 1960s, or even earlier. The thought police today are clearly on the left. Look what just happened at UC-Beserkley. If you don't toe the liberal line you have no right to speak. The leftist thugs didn't want to attend his talk and then engage in questions and try to show intellectually the superiority of their arguments. They wanted to silence his speech. This on the campus that was once the birthplace of the free-speech movement. We are very much in danger of fascism of the left in this country. As you may recall from political science classes, the far-right and far-left have much in common and occupy close to the same space on the political spectrum.
There's a clear difference between Antifa anarchists and Cal Berkeley students. You can either be honest about that and and participate in a genuine conversation about the policing of free speech, or you can try to case those actions as being representative of the left as a whole and bring nothing to the conversation. Your choice.

I'd also ask this: is this truly a "fascism of the left" issue? What about when holiday coffee cups at Starbucks are the wrong color, or an SNL writer makes an off-color joke and is forced to resign, or Obama strategically doesn't use the phrase "islamic terrorism" and conservatives poop their drawers for 8 months, or Netflix launches a comedy called Dear White People and there's a boycott, or Colin Kaepernick kneels during the national anthem and becomes public enemy #1, or the Trump Administration tells us that nobody can even suggest that the recent mission in Yemen wasn't a success without being unpatriotic.

Aren't those equally egregious examples of conservatives acting like little "snowflakes" and getting outraged by speech they disagree with?

There's a culture of outrage in this country. Trying to pretend it only exists in one party is self-aggrandizing garbage.
I didn't see the UCB students do anything to try and stop the destruction, or to stand up for the right of a man whose message they didn't like, to speak. That would have been in the spirit of the Free Speech Movement. The examples you give are all interesting and illustrative but none of them involve physical violence to silence dissenting speech. It's mainly speech against speech. Boycotts are, in essence, a form of symbolic speech, just like burning the U.S. flag is symbolic speech (see U.S. Supreme Court decisions).
So I'm clear, your bar for claiming "fascism of the left" is Berkeley students not putting their safety at risk to stop violent protests? Or are you still trying to claim Antifa anarchists are somehow representative of the left?

Are Cliven Bundy and his crew representative of the right?
Last Edited: 2/10/2017 12:38:50 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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OhioCatFan
2/10/2017 1:13 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
...been short changed by an elitist, leftist cabal in DC, whose only goal is to control people and not educate or help them.
Are you out of your f***ing mind? Really?

If republicans put half as much energy into actual education as they do trying to shove the Bible into public education, we might be in a better spot. The education issues definitely deserve blame from both sides, but the idea that liberals are trying to control people? Yeah, that's rich. If republicans ever had an alternate name it would be "thought police".
You seem to be lost in the 1960s, or even earlier. The thought police today are clearly on the left. Look what just happened at UC-Beserkley. If you don't toe the liberal line you have no right to speak. The leftist thugs didn't want to attend his talk and then engage in questions and try to show intellectually the superiority of their arguments. They wanted to silence his speech. This on the campus that was once the birthplace of the free-speech movement. We are very much in danger of fascism of the left in this country. As you may recall from political science classes, the far-right and far-left have much in common and occupy close to the same space on the political spectrum.
There's a clear difference between Antifa anarchists and Cal Berkeley students. You can either be honest about that and and participate in a genuine conversation about the policing of free speech, or you can try to case those actions as being representative of the left as a whole and bring nothing to the conversation. Your choice.

I'd also ask this: is this truly a "fascism of the left" issue? What about when holiday coffee cups at Starbucks are the wrong color, or an SNL writer makes an off-color joke and is forced to resign, or Obama strategically doesn't use the phrase "islamic terrorism" and conservatives poop their drawers for 8 months, or Netflix launches a comedy called Dear White People and there's a boycott, or Colin Kaepernick kneels during the national anthem and becomes public enemy #1, or the Trump Administration tells us that nobody can even suggest that the recent mission in Yemen wasn't a success without being unpatriotic.

Aren't those equally egregious examples of conservatives acting like little "snowflakes" and getting outraged by speech they disagree with?

There's a culture of outrage in this country. Trying to pretend it only exists in one party is self-aggrandizing garbage.
I didn't see the UCB students do anything to try and stop the destruction, or to stand up for the right of a man whose message they didn't like, to speak. That would have been in the spirit of the Free Speech Movement. The examples you give are all interesting and illustrative but none of them involve physical violence to silence dissenting speech. It's mainly speech against speech. Boycotts are, in essence, a form of symbolic speech, just like burning the U.S. flag is symbolic speech (see U.S. Supreme Court decisions).
So I'm clear, your bar for claiming "fascism of the left" is Berkeley students not putting their safety at risk to stop violent protests? Or are you still trying to claim Antifa anarchists are somehow representative of the left?

Are Cliven Bundy and his crew representative of the right?
Back in the Free Speech Movement days UCB students certainly would have met the action of those trying to silence speech with force. I guess either the snowflakes today don't quite have that level of courage, or they actually sympathize at some level with the anarchists and/or the effect of their destruction (i.e, preventing free speech). No, I'm not saying the anarchists are representative of the left. I'm just saying what I said above. Bundy is not representative of right, but I will admit that too many on the right just kind of gave him a pass rather than speaking out against him forcefully.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
2/10/2017 1:53 PM
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
Yes, and I would argue that we need to shit the burden away ...
Shouldn't everything be that easy?
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person
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
2/10/2017 1:59 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
...been short changed by an elitist, leftist cabal in DC, whose only goal is to control people and not educate or help them.
Are you out of your f***ing mind? Really?

If republicans put half as much energy into actual education as they do trying to shove the Bible into public education, we might be in a better spot. The education issues definitely deserve blame from both sides, but the idea that liberals are trying to control people? Yeah, that's rich. If republicans ever had an alternate name it would be "thought police".
You seem to be lost in the 1960s, or even earlier. The thought police today are clearly on the left. Look what just happened at UC-Beserkley. If you don't toe the liberal line you have no right to speak. The leftist thugs didn't want to attend his talk and then engage in questions and try to show intellectually the superiority of their arguments. They wanted to silence his speech. This on the campus that was once the birthplace of the free-speech movement. We are very much in danger of fascism of the left in this country. As you may recall from political science classes, the far-right and far-left have much in common and occupy close to the same space on the political spectrum.
There's a clear difference between Antifa anarchists and Cal Berkeley students. You can either be honest about that and and participate in a genuine conversation about the policing of free speech, or you can try to case those actions as being representative of the left as a whole and bring nothing to the conversation. Your choice.

I'd also ask this: is this truly a "fascism of the left" issue? What about when holiday coffee cups at Starbucks are the wrong color, or an SNL writer makes an off-color joke and is forced to resign, or Obama strategically doesn't use the phrase "islamic terrorism" and conservatives poop their drawers for 8 months, or Netflix launches a comedy called Dear White People and there's a boycott, or Colin Kaepernick kneels during the national anthem and becomes public enemy #1, or the Trump Administration tells us that nobody can even suggest that the recent mission in Yemen wasn't a success without being unpatriotic.

Aren't those equally egregious examples of conservatives acting like little "snowflakes" and getting outraged by speech they disagree with?

There's a culture of outrage in this country. Trying to pretend it only exists in one party is self-aggrandizing garbage.
I didn't see the UCB students do anything to try and stop the destruction, or to stand up for the right of a man whose message they didn't like, to speak. That would have been in the spirit of the Free Speech Movement. The examples you give are all interesting and illustrative but none of them involve physical violence to silence dissenting speech. It's mainly speech against speech. Boycotts are, in essence, a form of symbolic speech, just like burning the U.S. flag is symbolic speech (see U.S. Supreme Court decisions).
So I'm clear, your bar for claiming "fascism of the left" is Berkeley students not putting their safety at risk to stop violent protests? Or are you still trying to claim Antifa anarchists are somehow representative of the left?

Are Cliven Bundy and his crew representative of the right?
Back in the Free Speech Movement days UCB students certainly would have met the action of those trying to silence speech with force. I guess either the snowflakes today don't quite have that level of courage, or they actually sympathize at some level with the anarchists and/or the effect of their destruction (i.e, preventing free speech). No, I'm not saying the anarchists are representative of the left. I'm just saying what I said above. Bundy is not representative of right, but I will admit that too many on the right just kind of gave him a pass rather than speaking out against him forcefully.
I wish the snowflakes on the right had the courage to stand up to Alexandre Bissonette. Hell, the President didn't even find the Quebec shooting worth mentioning. An attack in Paris with no casualties (save the attacker) was worth mention. A right-wing idiot attacking a mosque though? Nothing. I guess he must, on some level, sympathize with Bissonette's distruction.

See how we can do this all day? And how useless it is?

It's much more constructive to discuss the root problems than to try and cast blame on one party or the other.
Last Edited: 2/10/2017 2:02:03 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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rpbobcat
2/10/2017 2:04 PM
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
Yes, and I would argue that we need to shit the burden away from local property taxes and toward the state. That way local property owners in certain areas aren't unfairly burdened and we can also have a more equal amount of spending across the state.
I won't speak for anywhere else,but never gonna happen in North Jersey.

Home Rule is sacrosanct out here.

People move to certain towns,just for their schools.

People will pay higher taxes just for better schools.

The other issue,if schools are funded through the state,how much "control" do they exert?
Do you eliminate local control including tenure and transferring teachers ?
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