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General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events Topic
Topic: Nellis planning public input forums
Page: 7 of 9
DelBobcat
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Posted: 8/24/2017 12:44 PM
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TheBobcatBandit wrote:expand_more
Except now you reply to my reply against a broad brush term (coastal elites) with several broad brushes or your own and a mythical creature: elites who are not capable of applying their education to the real world.

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.


...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.
If that isn't an elitist statement, I don't know what is. Again, what school in Akron did you graduate from? Coming from someone who did graduate from an Akron high school, it would help me a bit better understand your point of view.
How is that an elitist statement? You obviously have no idea what being an elitist means. Way to completely twist his words and take him out of context to disprove his point.

All the Optimist said was he had exposure that other people in his area didn't. That's not an elitist. To me an elitist is someone who has that exposure and somehow it makes them think they're better then everyone else.

If you don't like that definition we can use googles which says "relating or supporting the view that society should be run by elites. Which goes exactly with optimist point earlier and why he is using the term elitist I think. By raising the requirement of test score emissions, yes you're getting kids who do better in high school. The thing is though doing better in high school doesn't make you smarter than someone who doesn't do as well as you. In many cases all it means is that you tried harder. There are millions of kids out there who are super smart but just don't apply themselves in school. This could be for a number of reasons. Maybe they weren't interested in the subjects, maybe they were lazy, maybe they just wanted to socialize more or focus on sports, whatever, but the idea that beacaue they don't meet a high GPA or testing standard makes them any less smart is ridiculous. These kids who score less bring there own knowledge and expertise on many areas of life or a specialized field. By raising emissions standard you're spreading the elitist idea that only these elite people who do well in school should get a chance at college and by doing so you're ensuring that society is run by these intellectual elites. Also by doing this you're eliminating a population from the Ohio student body which bring there own unique expertise to our school. In my view this would be detrimental to the culture of our school.

In summary there are many different ways to be elite. Let's not just select those who are intellectually elite.
But he's making a statement that others from Akron do not have the "exposure" to the outside world that he does and therefore his opinion on the issue is more valid. I think it is wrong and elitist to assume that people from Akron are not well-traveled. I know lots of intelligent, well-traveled folks from Akron.
Where does he say that makes his opinion more valid? You're adding that in.
I can't believe I have to spell this out but here we go.

He said that people on the coasts have bought into the idea that people in middle America are inferior.

I responded that it seems to me he's never actually met anyone on the coasts because that's not true of my experience.

His response to that was that he's had more exposure to the outside world than other people in his area. The implication being that yes, he has met people from the coasts, unlike most people in his area. Therefore, he is in a position to weigh in on the attitudes of people from the coasts that others from Akron are not.

I don't know how else to take his statement.
Last Edited: 8/24/2017 12:45:25 PM by DelBobcat
The Optimist
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Posted: 8/24/2017 4:54 PM
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I can't believe I have to spell this out but here we go.

...

The only reason I mentioned my personal travel and the geographic distribution of my work contacts was due to this comment:
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
I feel like you've never actually talked to someone who lives on the coasts.

Classic coastal elite statement: You must live in a bubble.

So, I mention that I travel and have to talk to people from all over for my job...
DelBobat wrote:expand_more
But he's making a statement that others from Akron do not have the "exposure" to the outside world that he does

I'm stating a verfiable fact. I travel more, on average, than others from my area do. My job requires contact with people from a wider geography than many (but not all) other jobs.
There's 100 different data sets you could use to verify something like this: averages flight bookings, annual miles driven, passport registrations... Compare company employee geography, company supplier and customer geography, average communication based on job role. I really don't care how you look at it...


DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
and therefore his opinion on the issue is more valid. I think it is wrong and elitist to assume that people from Akron are not well-traveled. I know lots of intelligent, well-traveled folks from Akron.

DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
The implication being that yes, he has met people from the coasts, unlike most people in his area. Therefore, he is in a position to weigh in on the attitudes of people from the coasts that others from Akron are not.

I never said people from Akron are not well-traveled. I said I travel more on average than others do.

You came up with your own implications about what I said and tried to cast them as my own. Ironically, you've reinforced the point I was making...
Optimist wrote:expand_more
What I find extremely troubling is the media narrative about all the people from my area who haven't seen as much of the outside world. I don't believe that preferring to live a "local" life over a "global" life makes you a bad person. I also don't believe it makes you uneducated which means I certainly don't believe that Ohio University continuing to attract students who have demonstrated success in academics without the GPA or test scores to qualify as "elite" is something we should be looking to change.

The media and coastal elites LOVE making implications about people based on how much they travel. It's an embarassing way to define people that completely ignores the skillsets and culture of a large part of this country.

TheBobcatBandit wrote:expand_more
In summary there are many different ways to be elite. Let's not just select those who are intellectually elite.

+1
The Optimist
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Posted: 8/24/2017 5:04 PM
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Lets jump back into the "make a personal statement and see what coastal elites can imply from it" rabbit hole.

Alan is well aware I attended Highland, a suburban/rural school bordering Copley (mentioned earlier in this thread)
I had a supposedly desirable 27 ACT although my GPA was trash due to my strict personally policy against homework.

I love that Ohio attracts students with a mixed set of educational success. The experience offered at Ohio University outside the classroom is equally important to what is offered inside the classroom. I think we're still in the sweet spot and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 8/24/2017 7:55 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
Lets jump back into the "make a personal statement and see what coastal elites can imply from it" rabbit hole.

Alan is well aware I attended Highland, a suburban/rural school bordering Copley (mentioned earlier in this thread)
I had a supposedly desirable 27 ACT although my GPA was trash due to my strict personally policy against homework.

I love that Ohio attracts students with a mixed set of educational success. The experience offered at Ohio University outside the classroom is equally important to what is offered inside the classroom. I think we're still in the sweet spot and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Medina Highland is not Akron, not even close to it. That's like saying you're from Canton but went to Louisville.
Last Edited: 8/24/2017 8:00:10 PM by Alan Swank
DelBobcat
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Posted: 8/25/2017 10:15 AM
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This is dumb, but I feel like I have to defend myself.

I didn't cast any aspersions on you or anyone based on how much they travel.

I said you must not know anyone from the coasts because, in my daily experience, the things you are saying are COMPLETELY UNTRUE.

You're the one who brought up travel and is putting so much weight on it. I honestly don't care how much you travel. It's silly. All I'm saying is you're doing the same thing you're accusing other people of doing. Full stop. And that's the last I'll address this.
OUPride
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Posted: 8/25/2017 11:41 AM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
Lets jump back into the "make a personal statement and see what coastal elites can imply from it" rabbit hole.

Alan is well aware I attended Highland, a suburban/rural school bordering Copley (mentioned earlier in this thread)
I had a supposedly desirable 27 ACT although my GPA was trash due to my strict personally policy against homework.

I love that Ohio attracts students with a mixed set of educational success. The experience offered at Ohio University outside the classroom is equally important to what is offered inside the classroom. I think we're still in the sweet spot and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
And that's fine. We just have to agree to disagree on our respective visions for what Ohio should be and where in the state of Ohio hierarchy it will fall.

But you do have to understand that your vision of a college that's one step above open admissions will have repercussions in other areas: rankings obviously but also faculty recruitment (and the subsequent ability to attract high end research funding), the ability to attract 30+ ACT kids away from OSU, Miami and UC, the breadth of companies and other organizations willing to come to Ohio to recruit and the university's reputation around the state.
cbus cat fan
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Posted: 8/25/2017 5:55 PM
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We have to find a way to be the best we can be without changing our character. For example, a few of you might remember some of my posts on my line of work that takes me to interview students at job fairs both at university and non-university sites. In the spring, I had an interesting conversation with a gentleman from NYC, who was an Ivy League alum. Honestly, I don't remember what company he owns, but his ears perked up when I said I was a Bobcat alum.

On the east coast he likes to hire Ivy League grads who came from non-blue blood type backgrounds. When he interviews in the Midwest, he told me he likes to interview as many Bobcats as possible. He told me he had great experience with those in his company.

Honestly, I am amazed at how many employers are partial to one school or another often based on current employees who were recent hires. Some of their rationale seems evidenced based, for others it is more of a gut feeling. However, we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking that employers have their biases both for and against us. I would have not guessed it would be this crucial until I talked with these employers myself.
Last Edited: 8/25/2017 5:59:08 PM by cbus cat fan
TWT
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Posted: 8/25/2017 9:51 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
Lets jump back into the "make a personal statement and see what coastal elites can imply from it" rabbit hole.

Alan is well aware I attended Highland, a suburban/rural school bordering Copley (mentioned earlier in this thread)
I had a supposedly desirable 27 ACT although my GPA was trash due to my strict personally policy against homework.

I love that Ohio attracts students with a mixed set of educational success. The experience offered at Ohio University outside the classroom is equally important to what is offered inside the classroom. I think we're still in the sweet spot and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
I hate to break it to you but admissions are slowly inching up. IMO that sweet spot is 3.7 GPA and 26.5 ACT with a respected STEM component. That still provides for a chunk of students with potential but lower boards.
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Posted: 8/27/2017 12:47 PM
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Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
Lets jump back into the "make a personal statement and see what coastal elites can imply from it" rabbit hole.

Alan is well aware I attended Highland, a suburban/rural school bordering Copley (mentioned earlier in this thread)
I had a supposedly desirable 27 ACT although my GPA was trash due to my strict personally policy against homework.

I love that Ohio attracts students with a mixed set of educational success. The experience offered at Ohio University outside the classroom is equally important to what is offered inside the classroom. I think we're still in the sweet spot and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
I hate to break it to you but admissions are slowly inching up. IMO that sweet spot is 3.7 GPA and 26.5 ACT with a respected STEM component. That still provides for a chunk of students with potential but lower boards.
As I said earlier, I think that's a realistic target that maintains a good reputation and a spot among the top 4 universities in the state system. Unfortunately, demographics are no longer going to be as favorable as they were the last decade to make those improvements in the coming years, which is why Ohio needs to get creative if they're going to increase their profle. OSU sent 600 kids to their branch campuses last year that are 26+. That might be a good place to start.

OTOH, Nellis says he doesn't plan on increasing admissions standards, so who knows where Ohio is heading. I'll be interested to see what comes from these public forums.
Last Edited: 8/27/2017 1:49:06 PM by OUPride
The Optimist
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Posted: 8/27/2017 8:40 PM
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Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
I hate to break it to you but admissions are slowly inching up. IMO that sweet spot is 3.7 GPA and 26.5 ACT with a respected STEM component. That still provides for a chunk of students with potential but lower boards.

What you are stating here about admissions is precisely what I said when I first posted in this thread a couple pages back.

OUPride stated Ohio University had a "lost decade" under McDavis which is complete nonsense. Our total applications for the Athens campus continuously increased while our admission standards slowly rose during that time-frame.

Attracting a record number of applicants year over year while slowly raising admission standards is exactly the approach OU needed during a demographic bubble. It capitalizes on the demographics of today without sacrificing the long-term core student-base that Ohio has successfully attracted for decades.


OUPride wrote:expand_more
And that's fine. We just have to agree to disagree on our respective visions for what Ohio should be and where in the state of Ohio hierarchy it will fall.

But you do have to understand that your vision of a college that's one step above open admissions will have repercussions in other areas: rankings obviously but also faculty recruitment (and the subsequent ability to attract high end research funding), the ability to attract 30+ ACT kids away from OSU, Miami and UC, the breadth of companies and other organizations willing to come to Ohio to recruit and the university's reputation around the state.

OUPride wrote:expand_more
As I said earlier, I think that's a realistic target that maintains a good reputation and a spot among the top 4 universities in the state system. Unfortunately, demographics are no longer going to be as favorable as they were the last decade to make those improvements in the coming years, which is why Ohio needs to get creative if they're going to increase their profle.

OTOH, Nellis says he doesn't plan on increasing admissions standards, so who knows where Ohio is heading. I'll be interested to see what comes from these public forums.

I could not be less concerned about Ohio's ability to attract the same kind of kids it has attracted for decades and decades.

It's very simple for me: Ohio University is the complete "college experience." The way your talking, you'd think Ohio has completely abandoned all our academic standards. That just isn't the case. Our standards have slowly risen while applications have boomed.

Many other schools are going to struggle as online classes cut into the value of attending a 4-year University.

OU isn't immune to that entirely, but we could not be better positioned to fight that. Ohio Unviersity can offer "more" than just classes. They can offer college.

I'm simply not afraid that talented students from the region are going to lose interest in living in Athens for 4 years.

Quote:expand_more
OSU sent 600 kids to their branch campuses last year that are 26+. That might be a good place to start.
Surefire way to decrease applicants and admissions: stop selling Athens.
cbus cat fan
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Posted: 8/27/2017 9:15 PM
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For the life of me, I can't understand why a student, who in his/her school's top 10% with a ACT of 27, would go to an Ohio State branch campus (Marion or Mansfield) when they could get scholarship money going to another highly rated state or private school.

I can tell you in my field many educational administrators and students, whom I have taught and who now supervise branch campus Education graduates, don't believe branch campuses rise to the same level as their main campus.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 8/28/2017 10:44 AM
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Did anyone answer my question much earlier in the thread about OHIO's admissions standards for our Honors Tutorial Program? If it was answered, I missed it, and I apologize, but I've follow this thread fairly carefully, and haven't seen an answer. It seems to me when looking at our overall admissions standards one has to consider the higher admissions standards for this prestigious program. I'm also curious how large the program is now. I think when it started it only had a handful of students, but the last I heard (more than a decade ago), it had grown to more than a hundred students.
mf279801
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Posted: 8/28/2017 11:55 AM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Did anyone answer my question much earlier in the thread about OHIO's admissions standards for our Honors Tutorial Program? If it was answered, I missed it, and I apologize, but I've follow this thread fairly carefully, and haven't seen an answer. It seems to me when looking at our overall admissions standards one has to consider the higher admissions standards for this prestigious program. I'm also curious how large the program is now. I think when it started it only had a handful of students, but the last I heard (more than a decade ago), it had grown to more than a hundred students.
From the website "Because of the rigorous, one-on-one nature of our tutorial-based program, we are a highly selective institution. While exceptional circumstances are considered, ideal HTC applicants should have minimum standardized test scores of about a 30 on the ACT and/or 1300 on the SAT and should be in the top 10 percent of their high school graduating class. Strong portfolio work is also a must for those students applying for programs in Journalism, Film, Dance or Theater. An on-campus interview is also required."

In short:
-30 on ACT and/or 1300 SAT
-AND top 10% of HS Graduating class
-Interview (which does seem to play a role in determining whether or not an offer will be made)
-Some of the programs require a portfolio that will also be judged


(though exceptions will be made if the student's interview, portfolio, enthusiasm, or other circumstances warrant)


Edited to add: approximately 225 current students.
Last Edited: 8/28/2017 11:56:59 AM by mf279801
OUPride
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Posted: 8/28/2017 1:07 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE]OSU sent 600 kids to their branch campuses last year that are 26+. That might be a good place to start.
Surefire way to decrease applicants and admissions: stop selling Athens.
You misunderstand me. My aim would be to attract some of those kids to Athens precisely by selling them on Athens and the complete 4-year experience.
The Optimist
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Posted: 8/28/2017 3:57 PM
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OUPride wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE]OSU sent 600 kids to their branch campuses last year that are 26+. That might be a good place to start.
Surefire way to decrease applicants and admissions: stop selling Athens.
You misunderstand me. My aim would be to attract some of those kids to Athens precisely by selling them on Athens and the complete 4-year experience.
You're right, I completely mistook what you meant. I thought you were suggesting we follow OSU's model with our own branch campuses. You seem to be suggesting we target those applicants at OSU branch campuses with a 26+ ACT.

Students going to an OSU branch with a 26+ ACT almost always fall into 1 of 2 categories:
1. Local kid to the branch who is being practical to save $.
2. Kids who didn't have the scores to get into OSU-Main but wanted to attend "Ohio State." I don't know what % end up transferring to the main campus, but nearly 100% start at the branch telling themselves they will one day transfer to the main campus.

While I agree being attractive to that market is important, I don't know how much control we have to attract those types of applicants.

The vast majority of those kids are going the route they are because they are drawn heavily to the "Ohio State" name. I'm all for Ohio University fighting against the evil empire's "Buckeye" propaganda, but those kids have likely been exposed to years of brainwashing.

That's the war, not the battle.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 8/29/2017 12:18 PM
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mf279801 wrote:expand_more
Did anyone answer my question much earlier in the thread about OHIO's admissions standards for our Honors Tutorial Program? If it was answered, I missed it, and I apologize, but I've follow this thread fairly carefully, and haven't seen an answer. It seems to me when looking at our overall admissions standards one has to consider the higher admissions standards for this prestigious program. I'm also curious how large the program is now. I think when it started it only had a handful of students, but the last I heard (more than a decade ago), it had grown to more than a hundred students.
From the website "Because of the rigorous, one-on-one nature of our tutorial-based program, we are a highly selective institution. While exceptional circumstances are considered, ideal HTC applicants should have minimum standardized test scores of about a 30 on the ACT and/or 1300 on the SAT and should be in the top 10 percent of their high school graduating class. Strong portfolio work is also a must for those students applying for programs in Journalism, Film, Dance or Theater. An on-campus interview is also required."

In short:
-30 on ACT and/or 1300 SAT
-AND top 10% of HS Graduating class
-Interview (which does seem to play a role in determining whether or not an offer will be made)
-Some of the programs require a portfolio that will also be judged


(though exceptions will be made if the student's interview, portfolio, enthusiasm, or other circumstances warrant)


Edited to add: approximately 225 current students.
Thanks for all the good info. I see the size is more than double what I remembered.
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Posted: 9/18/2017 3:36 PM
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https://www.ohio.edu/compass/stories/17-18/09/Fall-2017-E...

For those who were previously spewing out what they thought our present enrollment figures were, see the link for the most current data.
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Posted: 9/18/2017 5:23 PM
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Serious question. Both Akron and Kent distributed similar press releases in the past week, with emphasis on the record-breaking academic character of their freshman classes. If there isn't some level of grade inflation at play here, where, may I ask, are all the lower performing high school grads going to college? (If not Akron?!)
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Posted: 9/18/2017 8:47 PM
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D.A. wrote:expand_more
https://www.ohio.edu/compass/stories/17-18/09/Fall-2017-E...

For those who were previously spewing out what they thought our present enrollment figures were, see the link for the most current data.
Not sure if that was directed at me, but the data I've posted on Ohio's class profiles has come directly from the university's official common data sets. Those are the best way to cut through the bs and the press releases and really see how the numbers are breaking down and compare how Ohio is doing relative to its competition.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/CDS /

And then of course, there's the sticky situation that Ohio said its average ACT in 2015 was 24.1 (see the document linked near the top of the first page). So is 24.1 in 2017 a record or is it not? Was it 24.13 in 2015 and 24.16 in 2017, so the university releases a press release screaming RECORD!. Either way, I'm not impressed. Average freshman ACT was 25.7 at Cincinnati this Fall. And Ohio has now dropped down to 151 in the US News rankings. I think we were right around 104-106 when McDavis entered the picture.
Last Edited: 9/19/2017 9:26:30 AM by OUPride
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Posted: 9/19/2017 12:03 PM
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SBH wrote:expand_more
Serious question. Both Akron and Kent distributed similar press releases in the past week, with emphasis on the record-breaking academic character of their freshman classes. If there isn't some level of grade inflation at play here, where, may I ask, are all the lower performing high school grads going to college? (If not Akron?!)

That sir is an excellent question!
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Posted: 9/19/2017 11:45 PM
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OUPride wrote:expand_more
https://www.ohio.edu/compass/stories/17-18/09/Fall-2017-E...

For those who were previously spewing out what they thought our present enrollment figures were, see the link for the most current data.
Not sure if that was directed at me, but the data I've posted on Ohio's class profiles has come directly from the university's official common data sets. Those are the best way to cut through the bs and the press releases and really see how the numbers are breaking down and compare how Ohio is doing relative to its competition.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/CDS /

And then of course, there's the sticky situation that Ohio said its average ACT in 2015 was 24.1 (see the document linked near the top of the first page). So is 24.1 in 2017 a record or is it not? Was it 24.13 in 2015 and 24.16 in 2017, so the university releases a press release screaming RECORD!. Either way, I'm not impressed. Average freshman ACT was 25.7 at Cincinnati this Fall. And Ohio has now dropped down to 151 in the US News rankings. I think we were right around 104-106 when McDavis entered the picture.
Its UC which is headed to the "sweet spot" of Top 100 USNWR ranking and 26.5 ACT. Meanwhile Ohio is patting itself on the back for record number of first time college students. I find it difficult to believe there are that many Ohio families out there yet from kids born in the year 2000 that are first generation college students.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 2:41 PM
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Let us not ignore that overall enrollment is down.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 10:33 PM
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Athens News enrollment story: http://tinyurl.com/yd8vfuom

And, a trend continues . . . OHIO is changing in many ways, with less emphasis on the classical humanities and more on areas such as health sciences, engineering and various communication disciplines on the undergraduate level. This probably has an effect on total enrollment numbers. Then, there's this quote about the increasing graduate enrollment. It's part of the same change as OHIO transitions to a more mature university:

"OU’s graduate student population and medical student population have both increased this fall semester from the same time last year, with 161 more graduate students (up 3.1 percent) and 117 more medical students (up 14.5 percent)."
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Posted: 9/24/2017 9:07 AM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Athens News enrollment story: http://tinyurl.com/yd8vfuom

And, a trend continues . . . OHIO is changing in many ways, with less emphasis on the classical humanities and more on areas such as health sciences, engineering and various communication disciplines on the undergraduate level. This probably has an effect on total enrollment numbers. Then, there's this quote about the increasing graduate enrollment. It's part of the same change as OHIO transitions to a more mature university:

"OU’s graduate student population and medical student population have both increased this fall semester from the same time last year, with 161 more graduate students (up 3.1 percent) and 117 more medical students (up 14.5 percent)."
Not happy about that. More "mature" universities don't lose focus on the core arts & sciences disciplines. Even the AAU cautions its members to not neglect the arts & sciences in pursuit of engineering and medical research dollars. What's interesting from Ohio's perspective is that humanities and social science majors have some of the highest entering ACT scores (according to data linked on first page) for Ohio.
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Posted: 9/24/2017 10:06 PM
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OUPride wrote:expand_more
Athens News enrollment story: http://tinyurl.com/yd8vfuom

And, a trend continues . . . OHIO is changing in many ways, with less emphasis on the classical humanities and more on areas such as health sciences, engineering and various communication disciplines on the undergraduate level. This probably has an effect on total enrollment numbers. Then, there's this quote about the increasing graduate enrollment. It's part of the same change as OHIO transitions to a more mature university:

"OU’s graduate student population and medical student population have both increased this fall semester from the same time last year, with 161 more graduate students (up 3.1 percent) and 117 more medical students (up 14.5 percent)."
Not happy about that. More "mature" universities don't lose focus on the core arts & sciences disciplines. Even the AAU cautions its members to not neglect the arts & sciences in pursuit of engineering and medical research dollars. What's interesting from Ohio's perspective is that humanities and social science majors have some of the highest entering ACT scores (according to data linked on first page) for Ohio.
Perhaps, they don't lose focus, but on the other hand they don't let those areas control their agenda either. OHIO is emerging from being an arts and sciences college with a few appendages in other disciplines to a much more diverse institution where A&S is important, and still a large area of focus, but is no longer in the driver's seat. This does upset a lot of the entrenched oligarchy that has controlled the agenda at OHIO for a long, long time. I could name, names, but I will refrain.
Last Edited: 9/24/2017 10:06:56 PM by OhioCatFan
Showing Messages: 151 - 175 of 203
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