Let's be realistic about this: we're at a point where shut-downs are being deemed necessary specifically because we sat on our ass and did nothing for four weeks. Graf is willing to accuse everybody of acting to score political points except for Donald Trump, who is the person in all of this most guilty of fucking this situation up specifically because he feared the political ramifications of acknowledging the problem.

He gave away four weeks of response time insisting this wasn't a problem. We're here because of him.

You can try and blame everybody else all you want and insist the difficult decisions being made are responsible for the economic collapse, but our leadership got us to this point. Pretending anything but is willful ignorance. If you're unwilling to acknowledge that, you don't get to accuse others of trying to "score political points" because it proves just how blindly political you're being about this whole thing.

What alternative to this are you all suggesting, exactly? It seems like you all's stance is essentially "let's just deal with the sicknesses because economic well-being is more important." I can see that view, even if I don't agree with it.

But from everything I read on this -- and from the decisions made willingly by the private sector in the face of those facts, it seems like our healthcare system can't actually deal with such a high level of sicknesses simultaneously. There are very real scenarios -- maybe not the most likely scenarios, but statistically viable scenarios -- in which the US healthcare system ends up so taxed that the death toll ends up very high. Do we just accept that as a possibility because of the economic strain social distancing creates?

Surely the richest country on earth doesn't have to choose between letting a deadly virus sweep through the country unchecked and economic collapse.

Well, we got to sit on our hands a little longer than some other countries because Trump was quick to stop flights to China. Still, all countries, rich and poor, have the same choices. Suppose Trump had ordered all events cancelled, and all bars and restaurants closed at the same time he cancelled flights from China? Do you think that would have been accepted?

Do I wish we had rolled out millions of tests 3 weeks ago? Absolutely. But, still, the virus would spread, and difficult choices would need to be made.

What I'd like to see from here is a quick roll-out of the S. Korean model, where anyone who wants to be tested drives up to a pod, and a guy in a hazmat suit checks his ID and tests him or her, and there is no cost for it, and the results are available same day. That's the only thing that has worked outside of shutting down everything.

Lot's of misinformation about COVID-19. Here's a page on the CDC website that dispels some myths. Thought it might be of interest to those engaged in this discussion.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/symptoms-testin...

At the early stage, testing anyone who wants to be tested will create problems: namely it will overwhelm resources. How many people hear that a runny nose and cough are early signs, and then convince themselves that they do have those symptoms? It's the exact response we have in people buying toilet paper. Everyone panics, rushes to the store, and buys far more than they need. If you tell the public tests are free to anyone/everyone, then you can bet resources will be overrun.

The economic hit to the country will outweigh the health hit. All the while, politicians will attempt to smear their opposition. Partisans will point fingers. Everyone will be second-guessed. [/QUOTE]
Actually, a side effect of the extreme quarantining and social distancing in some countries has been the virtual elimination of colds and the regular flu as well, so the effect is probably not as extreme as you might think. Singapore is right now in their peak flu season, for example, and has 0 cases, for the first time ever.

S. Korea ramped up testing much faster than the US, and they were doing 10,000 tests a day. as of a couple weeks ago, and they are probably doing more now. There is no excuse for the fact that S. Korea was able to administer 100,000 tests before the US could do 1,000. I understand that as the US ramps up testing capacity, they can't test everyone who wants one. Allowing them only to people who have a doctor's orders is a very reasonable compromise, certainly more reasonable than limiting it to only people with known contacts.

As for the economic hit, don't kid yourself. Any course of action will involve a massive economic hit. At this point I only know of four approaches. All have tremendous costs:
1. S. Korea - free tests to anyone, plus an app to identify areas where the risk is high
2. China - Shut down all non-essential businesses for two months, require everyone to stay home. One person per household can leave every 5 days to get supplies.
3. Italy/Spain - Ignore it until the hospitals are overwhelmed, and the death rate approaches 10%, then implement the Chinese solution.
4. Japan/Singapore/Taiwan/Hong Kong - An aggressive compromise, with a lot of testing, a lot of social distancing, and aggressive contact tracing.

At this point, there is no course of action that doesn't have costs. We have to try to pick the best course of action. The US sort of has tried to take alternative 4, but waited too long to start the social distancing, and to ramp up testing, so that choice may no longer be available. Of the others, it seems to me that #1 is the lowest cost of the three.

As for politicians, this is a time when we should have unity as a country. Any politician from either party that tries to make this a political issue should be condemned.

[QUOTE=rpbobcat] My wife is a nurse.

She had a "head cold" (congestion,cough,no fever).
Went to work on Friday,not even a suggestion she get a covid 19 test.

[QUOTE=L.C.]
Well, we got to sit on our hands a little longer than some other countries because Trump was quick to stop flights to China.

the President's leadership because he shut down flights to China.

CDC has been way behind on their info. They seem more worried about stopping "stigma" than stopping the spread. According to the page you linked to, you are not to call them, even if you have all the symptoms, unless you have been in close contact with someone who has the disease, or you visited an area with "ongoing spread". So, I guess that means that if the clerk at McDonalds, or the cashier at Walmart, develops symptoms, they shouldn't bother calling because they aren't going to get tested. Apparently they need to get to the stage where they require hospitalization before they can be tested. Now, I suppose that if you consider the entire US to be areas of "ongoing spread", then they could be tested if they have symptoms.

I presume the reason the web site says this is because they didn't have the testing capacity to test very many people. Supposedly this week that will change.

Yes, the identifying traits of an established infection are a cough and a fever. Earlier, however, most people experience rhinitis, followed by an asymptiomatic stage where they are contagious that can last 4-9 days. You saw examples of that on the Diamond Princess. Some people said something along the lines of "I thought I had gotten a cold, and gotten over it quickly. When I tested positive, I couldn't believe it."

CDC does mention that it is possible that asymptiomatic spread is happening, but doesn't think it is a significant driver in the spread, and that we should focus on people with symptoms. That doesn't really match up with experiences in other countries, however. In China, they were able to control SARS, which didn't spread until you had symptoms, by quickly identifying and quarantining people with symptoms. That didn't work with COVID19, so they quarantined everyone. Here's an article on the subject in the US:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/14/health/coronavirus-asympto...

South Korea has been very successful in controlling it because they made the tests fast and free, and available to anyone. If someone has symptoms, they can get tested without having to prove they were in contact with someone who had it. If someone was in contact with someone who had it, they can get tested without symptoms. The result has been a tremendous number of negative tests, but also has been to catch a lot of cases very early, dramatically reducing the spread. [/QUOTE]
https://www.wionews.com/world/are-dormant-carriers-of-cov...
Another article showing disagreement with CDC's statement that "Some spread might be possible before people show symptoms; there have been reports of this occurring with this new coronavirus, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads".

[QUOTE=allen] The false flag stories should come to an end at this point, no my uncle bubba went to work with a cold and a fever. If you are sick stay home. This virus is very infectious, the White House officially ended their this is just a flu campaign and they have experts like Dr. Fauci, please don’t give your opinions unless you are an epidemiologist. Stay safe Bobcats

please don’t give your opinions unless you are an epidemiologist.

Oh wow! I don't know whether to laugh or to shake my head.