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Topic: Would You Rather Have... (NT)
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L.C.
12/18/2018 8:02 AM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
... BG and Toledo are right along the Ohio Turnpike and much closer to points in Michigan and Illinois.

I think that is exactly their advantage, along with NIU and WMU, and to a lesser degree, Miami. If you look at the map of college football, Ohio and Michigan are packed with G5 programs, as is the entire SE, and Texas. There are more G5 teams out west, in the MWC, but in between are a number of states with no G5 programs at all, states like Wisconsin, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Montana, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, and Missouri. These aren't states that produce huge numbers of Division I players, but if a player from that area doesn't get a P5 offer, what is their next choice?

BG, Toledo, WMU, and especially NIU are closest to that large, under-served area. The lack of G5 teams in that area, by the way, is probably also why the FCS teams from that area are among the best in the country, year in and year out. Teams like North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, EIU, and SIU are some of the teams that come to mind when I think of FCS powers.
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bshot44
12/18/2018 10:34 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
... BG and Toledo are right along the Ohio Turnpike and much closer to points in Michigan and Illinois.

I think that is exactly their advantage, along with NIU and WMU, and to a lesser degree, Miami. If you look at the map of college football, Ohio and Michigan are packed with G5 programs, as is the entire SE, and Texas. There are more G5 teams out west, in the MWC, but in between are a number of states with no G5 programs at all, states like Wisconsin, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Montana, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, and Missouri. These aren't states that produce huge numbers of Division I players, but if a player from that area doesn't get a P5 offer, what is their next choice?

BG, Toledo, WMU, and especially NIU are closest to that large, under-served area. The lack of G5 teams in that area, by the way, is probably also why the FCS teams from that area are among the best in the country, year in and year out. Teams like North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, EIU, and SIU are some of the teams that come to mind when I think of FCS powers.
I wouldn't say Michigan is packed with G5s ... it's the three MAC schools and that's it.

I would also say that the west is sporadic when it comes to G5s ... the 12 MWC schools and that's pretty much it.

Texas has 8 of them in CUSA, AAC and Sun Belt and 5 P5 schools.

I get your point about the midwest not having a ton of D-1 options outside of P5 schools ... but I will say that SIU hasn't been a national anything in nearly a decade. EIU has one FCS playoff win in 30 years.

Regardless, I'm not sure any of this puts Ohio at a disadvantage recruiting? Should Ohio not be the #1 option in Ohio outside of OSU and UC? Why would they not be able to land just as much talent from the state as Toledo? They should be better than Kent, Akron, Miami and BG? No? If not, why?

And if you draw the analogy that kids in the midwest that don't receive P5 offers end up at BG, Toledo, NIU, directional Michigan ... where do kids in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky end up that don't receive P5 offers? Is Ohio not just as close to those areas as those turnpike teams/non-G5 midwestern states you mentioned? If anything, there are fewer G5 options in east. Temple?
UConn? Buffalo? Where do all those kids in the northeast that don't get P5 offers end up?

I'm sorry ... I just don't look at Ohio as some isolated, middle-of-nowhere place that is impossible to get to. I'm not sure the last time you were in Athens, but they have four-lanes into town now and a major airport about an hour away. It's not a desolate area. So location is a nonsense excuse today when it comes to recruiting to me.
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OhioStunter
12/18/2018 10:44 AM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
I think everyone knows my vote...

I just find it humorous that people think if a new coach came in and led Ohio to MACC that he'd A) immediately leave or even more hilariously B) suddenly lead Ohio to losing seasons right after and run the program into the ground.
Why wouldn't people think that? Other than NIU, history has shown that to be the case in the MAC.

PJ Fleck immediately left WMU after a magical season and the team has gone 13-11 since.

Dino Babers immediately left after a MAC title and BG has gone 7-24 since.

Haywood immediately left Miami after a MAC title in 2010 and the program has gone 29-67 since.

Once powerful CMU has its MACC winning coach immediately leave after the title and they've gone 48-65 since.

There are only two current MAC coaches with conference titles still coaching in the conference -- Rod Carey (2014 and 2018) and Jason Candle (2017).
Ok ... now look at the foundation that was built by Haywood at Miami ... or Brookhart at Akron or Gill at Buffalo.

Nowhere near what Solich has built at Ohio. Ohio is on solid footing. Much like NIU who has seen Novak, Kill, Doeren & Carey .... and haven't missed much of a beat.

Similar to Toledo with Pinkel, Amstutz, Beckman, Campbell & Candle. Solid foundation built. 12 bowls since 2000. Pinkel laid the foundation & the rest help strengthen it. Yeah ... they had a few down years just like Solich did early while building Ohio.

The jury is still out on WMU after Fleck ... but I still don't think he built what Frank has.

Not many programs can survive what BG ia going thru ... four head coaches in seven years.

My point is we should trust what Frank has built. It's not a house of cards. I really think when the time comes for him to pass the baton, the right person should be able to come in and continue to elevate things. And, for the record, I don't think that person is currently on staff.

The fear of this thing deflating like a balloon is kind of funny to me. All these Solich fanatics ... quick to defend him ... but tentative to trust in what he's built.
New coaches are not famous for building on the old coaches work, but, for bringing in what they know which got them the opportunity. Case in point in 2003 this Big 12 school let go a coach at 9-3, 58-19, with one championship expecting new coaching to bring more/better. Fifteen years, four coaches and no championships later later they are 4-8 to Ohio's 8-4. So no, "past performance is no indication of future performance." This salesman was once obligated to share this with me.
This is a good point.

bshot44, do you really think a young new head coach would come in and run things the way Solich did? If so, then why bring in a new young head coach? If not, then your "build on the Solich foundation" point is moot.
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bshot44
12/18/2018 11:01 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
I think everyone knows my vote...

I just find it humorous that people think if a new coach came in and led Ohio to MACC that he'd A) immediately leave or even more hilariously B) suddenly lead Ohio to losing seasons right after and run the program into the ground.
Why wouldn't people think that? Other than NIU, history has shown that to be the case in the MAC.

PJ Fleck immediately left WMU after a magical season and the team has gone 13-11 since.

Dino Babers immediately left after a MAC title and BG has gone 7-24 since.

Haywood immediately left Miami after a MAC title in 2010 and the program has gone 29-67 since.

Once powerful CMU has its MACC winning coach immediately leave after the title and they've gone 48-65 since.

There are only two current MAC coaches with conference titles still coaching in the conference -- Rod Carey (2014 and 2018) and Jason Candle (2017).
Ok ... now look at the foundation that was built by Haywood at Miami ... or Brookhart at Akron or Gill at Buffalo.

Nowhere near what Solich has built at Ohio. Ohio is on solid footing. Much like NIU who has seen Novak, Kill, Doeren & Carey .... and haven't missed much of a beat.

Similar to Toledo with Pinkel, Amstutz, Beckman, Campbell & Candle. Solid foundation built. 12 bowls since 2000. Pinkel laid the foundation & the rest help strengthen it. Yeah ... they had a few down years just like Solich did early while building Ohio.

The jury is still out on WMU after Fleck ... but I still don't think he built what Frank has.

Not many programs can survive what BG ia going thru ... four head coaches in seven years.

My point is we should trust what Frank has built. It's not a house of cards. I really think when the time comes for him to pass the baton, the right person should be able to come in and continue to elevate things. And, for the record, I don't think that person is currently on staff.

The fear of this thing deflating like a balloon is kind of funny to me. All these Solich fanatics ... quick to defend him ... but tentative to trust in what he's built.
New coaches are not famous for building on the old coaches work, but, for bringing in what they know which got them the opportunity. Case in point in 2003 this Big 12 school let go a coach at 9-3, 58-19, with one championship expecting new coaching to bring more/better. Fifteen years, four coaches and no championships later later they are 4-8 to Ohio's 8-4. So no, "past performance is no indication of future performance." This salesman was once obligated to share this with me.
This is a good point.

bshot44, do you really think a young new head coach would come in and run things the way Solich did? If so, then why bring in a new young head coach? If not, then your "build on the Solich foundation" point is moot.
1. bcat2's point is trying compare what happened at Nebraska to firing Solich at Ohio. He has an axe to grind with how Solich was treated in Lincoln. That's his agenda.

2. Frank is 74 years old. He can't coach forever. I'm NOT saying fire him. No way, shape or form that should happen. But he's going to be gone at some point relatively soon, right?

3. 14 years and no title. That's why I think some new blood might be what's needed to get over the hump. Frank has built a stable program ... and one that is arguably the best in the MAC the last two seasons. And zero titles. I just don't know if this staff is capable of winning one?

So to answer you question, no I don't think a young new head coach would come in and run things the way Solich did. But I do think a young new head coach would be able to take the stable, strong foundation that has been laid by Solich and build upon that.
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L.C.
12/18/2018 12:13 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
...
Regardless, I'm not sure any of this puts Ohio at a disadvantage recruiting? Should Ohio not be the #1 option in Ohio outside of OSU and UC? Why would they not be able to land just as much talent from the state as Toledo? They should be better than Kent, Akron, Miami and BG? No? If not, why?

And if you draw the analogy that kids in the midwest that don't receive P5 offers end up at BG, Toledo, NIU, directional Michigan ... where do kids in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky end up that don't receive P5 offers? Is Ohio not just as close to those areas as those turnpike teams/non-G5 midwestern states you mentioned? If anything, there are fewer G5 options in east. Temple?
UConn? Buffalo? Where do all those kids in the northeast that don't get P5 offers end up?
...

I just took a quick look at this year's recruiting:
WMU - seems heavily from Illinois and Michigan
Toledo - Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania
BG - Michigan, Ohio
NIU - Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin
CMU - Michigan, Florida
EMU - Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois
Miami - Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Missouri
Ohio - Ohio, plus scattered all over (FL, WV, NY, Kentucky, Canada, Texas, etc)

Most of the above seems logical to me
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bshot44
12/18/2018 1:31 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...
Regardless, I'm not sure any of this puts Ohio at a disadvantage recruiting? Should Ohio not be the #1 option in Ohio outside of OSU and UC? Why would they not be able to land just as much talent from the state as Toledo? They should be better than Kent, Akron, Miami and BG? No? If not, why?

And if you draw the analogy that kids in the midwest that don't receive P5 offers end up at BG, Toledo, NIU, directional Michigan ... where do kids in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky end up that don't receive P5 offers? Is Ohio not just as close to those areas as those turnpike teams/non-G5 midwestern states you mentioned? If anything, there are fewer G5 options in east. Temple?
UConn? Buffalo? Where do all those kids in the northeast that don't get P5 offers end up?
...

I just took a quick look at this year's recruiting:
WMU - seems heavily from Illinois and Michigan
Toledo - Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania
BG - Michigan, Ohio
NIU - Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin
CMU - Michigan, Florida
EMU - Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois
Miami - Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Missouri
Ohio - Ohio, plus scattered all over (FL, WV, NY, Kentucky, Canada, Texas, etc)

Most of the above seems logical to me
How? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding. Because Ohio is in Athens, they don't have ability to recruit midwest like other MAC schools? And they can't recruit northeast because??

I just don't understand how Ohio's location is a hindrance to any recruiting options?
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L.C.
12/18/2018 4:49 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
...
How? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding. Because Ohio is in Athens, they don't have ability to recruit midwest like other MAC schools? And they can't recruit northeast because??

I just don't understand how Ohio's location is a hindrance to any recruiting options?

What I'm saying is that each of the schools is primarily recruiting in places close to them, but all of them are also recruiting some players from further away. I'm also saying that for Ohio, there aren't a lot of Division I players close to them, so a larger percentage of their players have to be recruited from further away. I'm not saying they can't get players to come to Athens; I'm saying that they have to go further to do it.

I totally agree that the goal is to make Ohio be in the top three choices for players from Ohio. If they can accomplish that, their future is secure. I think they have been working towards that for years, but it's been a challenge.
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Buck.Cat
12/18/2018 10:57 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
What I'm saying is that each of the schools is primarily recruiting in places close to them, but all of them are also recruiting some players from further away. I'm also saying that for Ohio, there aren't a lot of Division I players close to them, so a larger percentage of their players have to be recruited from further away. I'm not saying they can't get players to come to Athens; I'm saying that they have to go further to do it.

I totally agree that the goal is to make Ohio be in the top three choices for players from Ohio. If they can accomplish that, their future is secure. I think they have been working towards that for years, but it's been a challenge.
Central Ohio/Columbus is an hour away up 33 from Athens so I don't really get the far away excuse. Although, we all have to remember that you are postulating over Google maps from the cornfields of Nebraska.
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L.C.
12/18/2018 11:43 PM
From memory, Ohio has been able to get probably 4-5 good recruits a year from Central Ohio, especially Pickerington, and probably about an average of one a year from SE Ohio. They also usually get a few from SW Ohio, and a couple from NE Ohio, though rarely anyone from NW Ohio. Together that's about half the recruits they need in a given year.

In recent years I think they are spending more money on recruiting than they used to, and the result has been more players from diverse places. This year's outstanding class includes players from NY, TX, VA, FL, WV, AZ, KY, and Canada. Last year's class included players from KS, IN, PA, NE, MS, SC, MO and GA. In just two years, that is 16 states and one foreign country. Going back a few years you can also find IL, MI, MD, NM, DC, OK, CA, and even Guam.

I'm a little confused by the point you're trying to make. Are you suggesting that they should be able to find all the players they need in Central and SW Ohio?
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bshot44
12/19/2018 12:38 AM
Not at all. I love that Ohio is willing and able to look outside the box. It's more the idea that Ohio isn't big in more places that is otherwise to lure other recruits.
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L.C.
12/19/2018 12:52 PM
I'm also a little confused by buck.cat's use of the word "excuse". Excuse for what? I just said it was a disadvantage that there was no permanent fix for. I view it as an obstacle which much be overcome on an ongoing basis. Today Ohio does have a large recruiting profile, and they are able to get talented recruiting classes. When a new coach takes over, he will inherit significantly improved facilities, but even with those, he will still have to face and overcome the fact that there is less local talent than some other places.
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bshot44
12/19/2018 1:38 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
I'm also a little confused by buck.cat's use of the word "excuse". Excuse for what? I just said it was a disadvantage that there was no permanent fix for. I view it as an obstacle which much be overcome on an ongoing basis. Today Ohio does have a large recruiting profile, and they are able to get talented recruiting classes. When a new coach takes over, he will inherit significantly improved facilities, but even with those, he will still have to face and overcome the fact that there is less local talent than some other places.
When you say local area are you meaning southeast ohio only? Of course that area is weak.

But an hour up the road, Columbus is loaded with division one talent. And north 2+ hrs Cleveland is the same.

I don't know what point you're trying make with less local talent?
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L.C.
12/19/2018 1:57 PM
My point is that each school has an area that is closer them than any other school, and all things being equal, they should have more exposure to those athletes, and get most of them that they want as recruits. Here is a chart Ted posted to the recruiting thread, of all the 4 and 5 star recruits in the country the last couple years:
https://twitter.com/SportSourceA/status/10750380361472163...

The recruits are mostly on a diagonal line through the state, including SE, Central, and NE Ohio. Miami and UC are G5 schools in the SW. Akron and Kent are G5 schools in the NE. Central Ohio is an area that is heavily recruited by all the G5 schools in the state.

Note that I'm not saying Ohio can't recruit players from SW Ohio, or NE Ohio, or Central Ohio. They should be able to, and they can, and they do. I'm saying it's something that they have to work at. The current coaches work at it, and the regional camps were one idea that seems to have helped tremendously because it gives them exposure to athletes from all those areas. When new coaches take over, they will have to work at it, too.

I think people are trying to read way too much into my comments on this. If a school is in a recruit rich location, great for them. If they aren't, they just need to work a little harder, but they can still get the job done.
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Buck.Cat
12/19/2018 8:36 PM
The issue is that you have probably never stepped foot in Athens or Ohio. Or if you did, it was years ago. You have no idea what you are blabbering about. You are correct that southeast Ohio lacks in FBS recruits but central Ohio is relatively close and other major areas are 2-3 hours away. And now we all find ourselves slipping into the vortex.
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The Optimist
12/20/2018 12:05 AM
Buck.Cat wrote:expand_more
The issue is that you have probably never stepped foot in Athens or Ohio. Or if you did, it was years ago. You have no idea what you are blabbering about. You are correct that southeast Ohio lacks in FBS recruits but central Ohio is relatively close and other major areas are 2-3 hours away. And now we all find ourselves slipping into the vortex.
Slipping into the vortex? From where I'm sitting typing this post, I can see the top of Akron's stadium a couple miles west. A couple miles east is where Joe Lowery played high school football. A couple miles further east is Kent State.

Ohio's a great state for high school football, but we've also got a huge number of D-1 college football programs. That makes it one of the most competitive recruiting environments in the nation.

(I'm going on record now that Joe Lowery is going to make a rapid climb up NFL draft boards this Spring. I'm also going on the record that despite losing an NFL-caliber Left Tackle, our offensive line will still be great next season because under Frank Solich our oline looks like the Wisconsin of the MAC.)
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RSBobcat
12/20/2018 12:27 AM
Stoopid Trap Poll
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TWT
12/20/2018 7:43 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...
How? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding. Because Ohio is in Athens, they don't have ability to recruit midwest like other MAC schools? And they can't recruit northeast because??

I just don't understand how Ohio's location is a hindrance to any recruiting options?

What I'm saying is that each of the schools is primarily recruiting in places close to them, but all of them are also recruiting some players from further away. I'm also saying that for Ohio, there aren't a lot of Division I players close to them, so a larger percentage of their players have to be recruited from further away. I'm not saying they can't get players to come to Athens; I'm saying that they have to go further to do it.
It prevents Ohio from cleaning up in Midwest recruiting like Boise does in the Mountain West when the MAC West has a completely different recruiting range. For this reason the MAC has always been as long as I've followed it 5 teams deep every season compared to 2 or 3 deep in most G5s. That split is almost always 3 MAC West teams to 2 MAC East. Makes it vastly more difficult to get the total MACC dominance some on here want. At least however this year the staff was able to pull even with top MAC teams in recruiting using a combination of states. 24/7 has Ohio at 14 recruits 3 stars and above which is in the ball park of WMU with 17.
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TWT
12/20/2018 7:51 AM
Buck.Cat wrote:expand_more
The issue is that you have probably never stepped foot in Athens or Ohio. Or if you did, it was years ago. You have no idea what you are blabbering about. You are correct that southeast Ohio lacks in FBS recruits but central Ohio is relatively close and other major areas are 2-3 hours away. And now we all find ourselves slipping into the vortex.
To add to what your saying here, the corridor from Lancaster to Athens and the towns in between is a big tourism corridor for the entire state. Loaded with state parks, B&Bs, festivals so that definitely helps compared to NIU stuck in the corn fields. Also weather is mild for the Midwest, sometimes hits 70 by end of February which is an advantage recruiting out-of-state.
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OhioCatFan
12/20/2018 10:00 AM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
. . . At least however this year the staff was able to pull even with top MAC teams in recruiting using a combination of states. 24/7 has Ohio at 14 recruits 3 stars and above which is in the ball park of WMU with 17.
Casper71 should be doing backflips and giving everyone hi-fives! ;-)
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