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Topic: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 8/30/2020 10:28 AM
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Bobcat1996 wrote:expand_more
If the Bobcats were to drop a division, then no more Pitt, Iowa State, Minnesota or Kansas visiting Peden.
Iowa State came through Athens 19 years ago. They were 7-5 that year and wouldn't win more than 7 games until 2017. Pitt came through 15 years ago and ended up 5-6 that year. Minnesota played in Athens in 2003. With the exception of Kansas, who is very likely the worst football program in the P5, all of those games were scheduled by a different coaching regime.

They're also, you know, not super exciting games. If the best competitive argument you can make to stay at the FBS level is that over the course of 19 years, 4 P5 teams played in Athens, color me unimpressed.


Bobcat1996 wrote:expand_more
Wouldn't be playing Penn State in Happy Valley or Ohio State in the shoe. Doubt Marshall home or away would be played.
Why wouldmn't we be playing Penn State and Ohio State? FCS teams play at Ohio State just as frequently as we do. Penn State's played plenty of FCS teams at home.

Bobcat1996 wrote:expand_more
Throw in no more trips to Northwestern and others. The UC Bearcats wouldn't be on the schedule.
Why?

Bobcat1996 wrote:expand_more
Let's turn the table and ask how would Bobcat hoops fans feel about playing a schedule full of Detroit, Morehead St., Cleveland St., IUPUI, Youngstown, Oakland, Tenn. Tech, UT Martin, Lehigh, VMI, High Point, Evansville and Drexel on top of the regular MAC schools? No more Purdue or back in the day, Kentucky Wildcats playing in the Convo. It doesn't happen every season, but it is nice to play a larger "name" school in Athens in both basketball and football.
Again, why? Just picking a random one off of your list -- VMI. Their basketball team's played Kentucky, Butler, Ohio State, Dayton, Richmond, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, NC State, VCU, and Pitt over the last few years. Why would our basketball schedule change?
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 8/30/2020 10:39 AM
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Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
How would I feel? Disappointed and angry.

How would it affect me? I would attend one or two games a year - no more season tickets. I would stop following the team closely. I would shift to being a fan of a P5 team. Probably UNC because of a number of personal and familial relationships.

No more money game trips like to UT. No more bowl games. My relationship to the university would drift. No doubt about it.
In the scenario posed, the whole MAC is coming along to FCS, right? So you but season tickets to see Ohio play Kent, Miami, BG, etc. solely because they're FBS schools? The schools on our schedule year to year would be identical. We'd be playing for the same thing -- a MAC championship. The only difference would be that we might go to a tournament at the end of the season to play for a national championship, instead of a bowl game to determine if we're better than the Sun Belt.

Also, as pointed out, FCS teams play P5 teams all the time. Why would that change?
The sport is moving toward the P5 playing more conference games to help their smaller drawing programs at the gate. Less G5 games and very few FCS games.

But I would be canceling my season tickets with a move to FCS would mark the end of advancing the university through athletics. Department would downsize as a result and cut more sports to get down to the D1 minimum.

Again I can't see it after spending the past 75 years to try to compete at the major conference level, between building The Convo, investing in football ect. That OU would raise the white flag and voluntarily move down but that is what it would be.
You mention the university 'advancing' through athletics. I've got no doubt that's the strategy, but what's your opinion on the success of that strategy?
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 8/30/2020 10:43 AM
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Pataskala wrote:expand_more
What you're talking about is an "opportunity" to get in a playoff. That opportunity may be slim. Ohio would either have to win the MAC title (which, as we know, hasn't happened in 52 years) or otherwise finish in the top 24 teams in 1AA (out of 119, if the MAC dropped to 1AA, in conferences that compete in the playoff). In order to have a real chance at getting into the 1AA playoff a team needs to win at least eight games; last year three seven-win teams made it while more than 20 didn't; six eight-win teams were in while only two were out. To win at least eight games in 1AA Ohio would need to improve in the MAC. Over the past eight years, Ohio has been 5-3 three times, 4-4 three times and 6-2 only twice. That means Ohio would have to win at least two or three OOC games to even have a chance at a playoff. Even then, getting into the playoff would be up to the selection committee. About half the current 1AA teams (53) haven't made the playoffs once in the last five years.

And even though we haven't lost to a 1AA team in the Solich era, that's largely because (a) we've played them all at home and (b) we have a 20 schollie edge over 1AA opponents. Both of those advantages would go away if we dropped to 1AA. And even with those advantages, we struggled against several 1AA teams.

I think most players would rather play in a post-season bowl game practically every year than sit at home in December half the time or more.
The best stretch of success in the modern history of Ohio University involves 0 conference championships.

I don't think anybody's naive enough to think the drop to FCS would mean we're immediately a national contender. We're not a good football school. Full stop. We never have been. Solich's done a lot to improve our standing, but we're still comfortably in the latter half of FBS programs.

So the argument isn't, from my point of view, that a drop to FCS guarantees us anything. It's that at least we're eligible to participate. That seems infinitely better to me than an exhibition game for bragging rights with the Sun Belt, or whatever.
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Posted: 8/30/2020 11:41 AM
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Syracuse is coming to Peden next year. Last I checked they're an ACC Power 5 school.
Last Edited: 8/30/2020 11:41:31 AM by NashvilleKat
TWT
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Posted: 8/30/2020 11:52 AM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
How would I feel? Disappointed and angry.

How would it affect me? I would attend one or two games a year - no more season tickets. I would stop following the team closely. I would shift to being a fan of a P5 team. Probably UNC because of a number of personal and familial relationships.

No more money game trips like to UT. No more bowl games. My relationship to the university would drift. No doubt about it.
In the scenario posed, the whole MAC is coming along to FCS, right? So you but season tickets to see Ohio play Kent, Miami, BG, etc. solely because they're FBS schools? The schools on our schedule year to year would be identical. We'd be playing for the same thing -- a MAC championship. The only difference would be that we might go to a tournament at the end of the season to play for a national championship, instead of a bowl game to determine if we're better than the Sun Belt.

Also, as pointed out, FCS teams play P5 teams all the time. Why would that change?
The sport is moving toward the P5 playing more conference games to help their smaller drawing programs at the gate. Less G5 games and very few FCS games.

But I would be canceling my season tickets with a move to FCS would mark the end of advancing the university through athletics. Department would downsize as a result and cut more sports to get down to the D1 minimum.

Again I can't see it after spending the past 75 years to try to compete at the major conference level, between building The Convo, investing in football ect. That OU would raise the white flag and voluntarily move down but that is what it would be.
You mention the university 'advancing' through athletics. I've got no doubt that's the strategy, but what's your opinion on the success of that strategy?
The athletic goals of the Boeh revolution were largely achieved, namely to compete on national TV at the CUSA level with Bobcat 2.0 coaches that can effectively recruit every position. Post season play if the Bobcats are over .500 be it a bowl or CIT/CBI to help build for next season. This all while keeping spending in check.

On the academic side the vision has been to enroll as many students as possible by keeping up with market demands (development of the nursing program) instead of concentrating resources in research to try to advance the university reputation. Its promoted the idea of OU as an access school rather than a top tier university.

The only way I see to turn it around is to create incentives to recruit and retain better faculty. More endowed chairs would help the situation. Competitive Students are picking schools on research reputation when all things are equal.
Bobcat1996
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Posted: 8/30/2020 12:43 PM
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NashvilleKat wrote:expand_more
Syracuse is coming to Peden next year. Last I checked they're an ACC Power 5 school.
Yes the Orange are scheduled to play in Athens next season and Iowa State in 2023. I think the UC Bearcats got shoved back to 2026? As for the Ohio State playing FCS schools, they haven't played someone like that in the shoe since 2013. Only once in the last ten seasons has Ohio State played an FCS team. None are on the horizon either as they are moving away from scheduling those teams.
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Posted: 8/30/2020 2:10 PM
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Bobcat1996 wrote:expand_more
Syracuse is coming to Peden next year. Last I checked they're an ACC Power 5 school.
Yes the Orange are scheduled to play in Athens next season and Iowa State in 2023. I think the UC Bearcats got shoved back to 2026? As for the Ohio State playing FCS schools, they haven't played someone like that in the shoe since 2013. Only once in the last ten seasons has Ohio State played an FCS team. None are on the horizon either as they are moving away from scheduling those teams.
Maybe I'm alone in this, but the fact that we get a mid-tier P5 team to come to Peden once every 4 or 5 years doesn't strike me as a very good reason on its own to stay in FBS and fund the additional scholarships.

Honestly? It just feels super sad to me that our fanbase is at a point where getting Iowa State to come to Athens once every 11 years is mentioned as a point in favor of remaining an FBS school. It feels like a better argument against.
Terry Lee
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Posted: 8/30/2020 3:18 PM
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I really enjoyed going to Penn State, Illinois and Kentucky and seeing a win.
Bobcat1996
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Posted: 8/30/2020 9:28 PM
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Terry Lee wrote:expand_more
I really enjoyed going to Penn State, Illinois and Kentucky and seeing a win.
With you Terry and include Pitt home win and Kansas win away and h in there also. I also enjoyed the Bobcats beating the Tar Heels hoops team a few years back at UNC even knowing that was a very bad UNC team. These wins are special.
Last Edited: 8/30/2020 9:29:49 PM by Bobcat1996
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The best recruiting tool is W's. Ohio is able to schedule a FCS at home as a tune up and has a shot at extra wins in the MACC and bowl game. The bowl games provide extra practice time so the program can get better. More home games increases the chances of winning and Ohio plays 6 a year on a 12 game schedule.

Say what you want about the playoff access in FBS being unrealistic (at least right now) but going 14-0 with a MACC and a bowl win would make waves nationally.

FCS is going to be only 4-5 home games a year plus low odds of making the playoff. Its not going to be as easy to build a program around as the bowl system is set up to be.
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Posted: 8/30/2020 11:03 PM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
What you're talking about is an "opportunity" to get in a playoff. That opportunity may be slim. Ohio would either have to win the MAC title (which, as we know, hasn't happened in 52 years) or otherwise finish in the top 24 teams in 1AA (out of 119, if the MAC dropped to 1AA, in conferences that compete in the playoff). In order to have a real chance at getting into the 1AA playoff a team needs to win at least eight games; last year three seven-win teams made it while more than 20 didn't; six eight-win teams were in while only two were out. To win at least eight games in 1AA Ohio would need to improve in the MAC. Over the past eight years, Ohio has been 5-3 three times, 4-4 three times and 6-2 only twice. That means Ohio would have to win at least two or three OOC games to even have a chance at a playoff. Even then, getting into the playoff would be up to the selection committee. About half the current 1AA teams (53) haven't made the playoffs once in the last five years.

And even though we haven't lost to a 1AA team in the Solich era, that's largely because (a) we've played them all at home and (b) we have a 20 schollie edge over 1AA opponents. Both of those advantages would go away if we dropped to 1AA. And even with those advantages, we struggled against several 1AA teams.

I think most players would rather play in a post-season bowl game practically every year than sit at home in December half the time or more.
The best stretch of success in the modern history of Ohio University involves 0 conference championships.

I don't think anybody's naive enough to think the drop to FCS would mean we're immediately a national contender. We're not a good football school. Full stop. We never have been. Solich's done a lot to improve our standing, but we're still comfortably in the latter half of FBS programs.
There are levels and ceilings to programs. Regardless of conference Ohio probably maxes out with an access bowl appearance. At least in the MAC Ohio can be a serious annual contender for a conference championship whereas in a P5 that is not happening.

Move to FCS and it puts handcuffs on the program with a 65 scholarship limit, less home games ect. The level of athlete on the field isn't the same either so less big plays, more dropped passes. Nobody in their right mind would want this except for someone who doesn't realize what they are asking for.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 8/31/2020 9:13 AM
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Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
What you're talking about is an "opportunity" to get in a playoff. That opportunity may be slim. Ohio would either have to win the MAC title (which, as we know, hasn't happened in 52 years) or otherwise finish in the top 24 teams in 1AA (out of 119, if the MAC dropped to 1AA, in conferences that compete in the playoff). In order to have a real chance at getting into the 1AA playoff a team needs to win at least eight games; last year three seven-win teams made it while more than 20 didn't; six eight-win teams were in while only two were out. To win at least eight games in 1AA Ohio would need to improve in the MAC. Over the past eight years, Ohio has been 5-3 three times, 4-4 three times and 6-2 only twice. That means Ohio would have to win at least two or three OOC games to even have a chance at a playoff. Even then, getting into the playoff would be up to the selection committee. About half the current 1AA teams (53) haven't made the playoffs once in the last five years.

And even though we haven't lost to a 1AA team in the Solich era, that's largely because (a) we've played them all at home and (b) we have a 20 schollie edge over 1AA opponents. Both of those advantages would go away if we dropped to 1AA. And even with those advantages, we struggled against several 1AA teams.

I think most players would rather play in a post-season bowl game practically every year than sit at home in December half the time or more.
The best stretch of success in the modern history of Ohio University involves 0 conference championships.

I don't think anybody's naive enough to think the drop to FCS would mean we're immediately a national contender. We're not a good football school. Full stop. We never have been. Solich's done a lot to improve our standing, but we're still comfortably in the latter half of FBS programs.
There are levels and ceilings to programs. Regardless of conference Ohio probably maxes out with an access bowl appearance. At least in the MAC Ohio can be a serious annual contender for a conference championship whereas in a P5 that is not happening.

Move to FCS and it puts handcuffs on the program with a 65 scholarship limit, less home games ect. The level of athlete on the field isn't the same either so less big plays, more dropped passes. Nobody in their right mind would want this except for someone who doesn't realize what they are asking for.
If the arguments you're making are as compelling as the arguments for sticking around in FBS get, I don't think it's so cut and dry that anybody who disagrees with you isn't "in their right mind."

In fact, you've only discussed football. The reality is that this conversation's genesis is the budgetary problems OU and universities across the country are facing, and the idea of the entire MAC moving down a level saves money on coaching salaries and scholarships.

That we won't have the same level of athlete on the field, or that we can no longer "make national waves" by going 14-0, or that the quality of play will be lower just doesn't matter all that much to me. Our football program, at it's absolute peak, is mediocre. The student body doesn't care about it, and by and large, alumni don't either. I think you'd be hard-pressed to make the case that our football program has accomplished what FBS programs, when run well, accomplish for their universities.

Given the budgetary crisis, it seems there are more people willing to acknowledge that and who are questioning the value of continuing to dump money into something with such questionable returns.

I think it's you who doesn't realize what I'm asking for. I'm asking for money from football to be diverted towards spending that's in line with the actual mission of Ohio University. And if there are more dropped passes as a result, I'm totally cool with that.
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Posted: 8/31/2020 10:53 AM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
What you're talking about is an "opportunity" to get in a playoff. That opportunity may be slim. Ohio would either have to win the MAC title (which, as we know, hasn't happened in 52 years) or otherwise finish in the top 24 teams in 1AA (out of 119, if the MAC dropped to 1AA, in conferences that compete in the playoff). In order to have a real chance at getting into the 1AA playoff a team needs to win at least eight games; last year three seven-win teams made it while more than 20 didn't; six eight-win teams were in while only two were out. To win at least eight games in 1AA Ohio would need to improve in the MAC. Over the past eight years, Ohio has been 5-3 three times, 4-4 three times and 6-2 only twice. That means Ohio would have to win at least two or three OOC games to even have a chance at a playoff. Even then, getting into the playoff would be up to the selection committee. About half the current 1AA teams (53) haven't made the playoffs once in the last five years.

And even though we haven't lost to a 1AA team in the Solich era, that's largely because (a) we've played them all at home and (b) we have a 20 schollie edge over 1AA opponents. Both of those advantages would go away if we dropped to 1AA. And even with those advantages, we struggled against several 1AA teams.

I think most players would rather play in a post-season bowl game practically every year than sit at home in December half the time or more.
The best stretch of success in the modern history of Ohio University involves 0 conference championships.

I don't think anybody's naive enough to think the drop to FCS would mean we're immediately a national contender. We're not a good football school. Full stop. We never have been. Solich's done a lot to improve our standing, but we're still comfortably in the latter half of FBS programs.
There are levels and ceilings to programs. Regardless of conference Ohio probably maxes out with an access bowl appearance. At least in the MAC Ohio can be a serious annual contender for a conference championship whereas in a P5 that is not happening.

Move to FCS and it puts handcuffs on the program with a 65 scholarship limit, less home games ect. The level of athlete on the field isn't the same either so less big plays, more dropped passes. Nobody in their right mind would want this except for someone who doesn't realize what they are asking for.
If the arguments you're making are as compelling as the arguments for sticking around in FBS get, I don't think it's so cut and dry that anybody who disagrees with you isn't "in their right mind."

In fact, you've only discussed football. The reality is that this conversation's genesis is the budgetary problems OU and universities across the country are facing, and the idea of the entire MAC moving down a level saves money on coaching salaries and scholarships.

That we won't have the same level of athlete on the field, or that we can no longer "make national waves" by going 14-0, or that the quality of play will be lower just doesn't matter all that much to me. Our football program, at it's absolute peak, is mediocre. The student body doesn't care about it, and by and large, alumni don't either. I think you'd be hard-pressed to make the case that our football program has accomplished what FBS programs, when run well, accomplish for their universities.

Given the budgetary crisis, it seems there are more people willing to acknowledge that and who are questioning the value of continuing to dump money into something with such questionable returns.

I think it's you who doesn't realize what I'm asking for. I'm asking for money from football to be diverted towards spending that's in line with the actual mission of Ohio University. And if there are more dropped passes as a result, I'm totally cool with that.
A lot of assumptions here that are off the mark.

-FBS football brings in more revenue than FCS football. That is just a fact between the TV money and other sources.

-FCS coaches make roughly half of what MAC coaches make. At best you are looking at saving 500,000 on salaries. Its just not very much savings.

-Ohio will always be on an average season in the second half of FBS programs because it plays in a G5 conference. Its nice to be in the Top 40 and receiving votes like the program has in the past but it is what it is.

-Ohio is a fundamentally mediocre program. Its a good G5 program all you need to do is look at the scoring ppg the last 3 years to see its far from mediocre plus there hasn't been a losing season since 2008 and a season with less than 4 wins since 2003. That is 17 years of good to half way decent football.

-Since you probably not aware this is where Ohio has ranked offensively in FBS the past 3 years ppg.

2019 33.8 #21
2018 40.2 #9
2017 37.4 #10

-On the defensive side of the ball and special teams there are years where we've had units and team statistics in the top 10.

-You'll produce more NFL talent in FBS and they become ambassadors for the program to further its development. MAC programs have had Top 5 NFL draft picks including the overall #1 a few years back.

-The difference between FBS and FCS is not like the difference between MLB and Triple AAA baseball where the players are 98% the same caliber of athlete as an average MLB guy so you can get the same enjoyment out of a Triple AAA game.

-Strategically as I've said in my posts the P5 could leave the NCAA and it would be better to be in the G5 and continue the advantages over the FCS conferences in a future situation than elect to join FCS.

-The argument that most of the fans are making that you give up the shot of P5 games at home is actually one of the weaker arguments for it. Financially FCS doesn't make sense and its a decidedly lower caliber of athletic and academic institution in FCS.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 8/31/2020 11:35 AM
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Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
A lot of assumptions here that are off the mark.

-FBS football brings in more revenue than FCS football. That is just a fact between the TV money and other sources.
Which assumption am I making that suggests otherwise? Also, revenue doesn't equal profit. We still lose money on football. I think we could lose less of it by dropping down a level, and don't believe football is part of our university's mission.

Oh, and take student fees out of the equation and then tell me about all of our revenue from FBS football.

Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
-FCS coaches make roughly half of what MAC coaches make. At best you are looking at saving 500,000 on salaries. Its just not very much savings.
Per year. You're welcome to hop on the phone with any of the faculty members who were laid off and explain to them how 500k a year isn't all that much.

Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
-Ohio will always be on an average season in the second half of FBS programs because it plays in a G5 conference. Its nice to be in the Top 40 and receiving votes like the program has in the past but it is what it is.
Yes, this is my point. Given that our ceiling's low, how do we justify the cost? A big part of your point seems to be we justify it through your enjoyment. That doesn't seem super compelling to me.

Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
-Ohio is a fundamentally mediocre program. Its a good G5 program all you need to do is look at the scoring ppg the last 3 years to see its far from mediocre plus there hasn't been a losing season since 2008 and a season with less than 4 wins since 2003. That is 17 years of good to half way decent football.
I still don't understand how that justifies the cost. "Half way decent football" isn't exactly a rallying cry.

Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
-Since you probably not aware this is where Ohio has ranked offensively in FBS the past 3 years ppg.

2019 33.8 #21
2018 40.2 #9
2017 37.4 #10
Given that you acknowledge our low ceiling as a football program, what value does any of this bring?

Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
-On the defensive side of the ball and special teams there are years where we've had units and team statistics in the top 10.
Ibid.

Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
-You'll produce more NFL talent in FBS and they become ambassadors for the program to further its development. MAC programs have had Top 5 NFL draft picks including the overall #1 a few years back.
Very proud of those MAC programs. What's our track record like? I'm genuinely unclear how this addresses anything I'm talking about. You think it'd be good to produce NFL talent. I don't think it's relevant at all. It doesn't make our program profitable.

Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
-The difference between FBS and FCS is not like the difference between MLB and Triple AAA baseball where the players are 98% the same caliber of athlete as an average MLB guy so you can get the same enjoyment out of a Triple AAA game.
I'm not at all concerned about your enjoyment. I'm not sure how to be more clear about that. You seem to think I'm arguing that FBS and FCS football teams play at the same level; I'm not making that argument. I'm saying I don't care, because our university is very bad shape financially.

Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
-The argument that most of the fans are making that you give up the shot of P5 games at home is actually one of the weaker arguments for it. Financially FCS doesn't make sense and its a decidedly lower caliber of athletic and academic institution in FCS.
I'm not sure I buy that FCS schools are a lower caliber of academic institution. Maybe you're qualifying that with "public FCS schools"? Because FCS includes the Ivy League and Patriot League, which are better academically than most if not all FBS conferences.

I'd also like to see the data on why FCS doesn't make sense financially. You estimate 500k annually in coaching salary savings. Add in the cost savings related to fewer salaries. What money's being lost? TV money. Maybe some gate revenue, though we gave a lot of that away for TV money already. How do the numbers look?
Last Edited: 8/31/2020 11:48:56 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
A lot of assumptions here that are off the mark.

-FBS football brings in more revenue than FCS football. That is just a fact between the TV money and other sources.
Which assumption am I making that suggests otherwise? Also, revenue doesn't equal profit. We still lose money on football. I think we could lose less of it by dropping down a level, and don't believe football is part of our university's mission.

Oh, and take student fees out of the equation and then tell me about all of our revenue from FBS football.
Its not about profit its about margin. If you spend 500,000 more but make 2.5 million more you are coming out ahead.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
-FCS coaches make roughly half of what MAC coaches make. At best you are looking at saving 500,000 on salaries. Its just not very much savings.
Per year. You're welcome to hop on the phone with any of the faculty members who were laid off and explain to them how 500k a year isn't all that much.
500k isn't significant on an annual university budget of $785 million. See page 53 of the fact book.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/factbook.pdf

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
-Ohio will always be on an average season in the second half of FBS programs because it plays in a G5 conference. Its nice to be in the Top 40 and receiving votes like the program has in the past but it is what it is.
Yes, this is my point. Given that our ceiling's low, how do we justify the cost? A big part of your point seems to be we justify it through your enjoyment. That doesn't seem super compelling to me.
All revenue flows whether directly or indirectly through the football program. It sets the value of the licensing and marketing for the athletic department, the TV deal money, then the majority of the direct ticket and donation revenue.

FCS football Ohio loses millions more than it does currently with a loss of about 5 million per year. You don't cut the main revenue stream in football; you cut sports that are not generating revenue.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
-Ohio is a fundamentally mediocre program. Its a good G5 program all you need to do is look at the scoring ppg the last 3 years to see its far from mediocre plus there hasn't been a losing season since 2008 and a season with less than 4 wins since 2003. That is 17 years of good to half way decent football.
I still don't understand how that justifies the cost. "Half way decent football" isn't exactly a rallying cry.
This is your argument; there are 130 FBS teams and Ohio since it regularly in the second division of that 130 that its mediocre. But what you are not considering is that by virtue of being in the G5 we will be in the bottom 65 or so programs. Ranking Ohio against the P5 isn't a fair comparison.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
-Since you probably not aware this is where Ohio has ranked offensively in FBS the past 3 years ppg.

2019 33.8 #21
2018 40.2 #9
2017 37.4 #10
Given that you acknowledge our low ceiling as a football program, what value does any of this bring?
To show you we've knocked on that door of that potential, to have the type of team that can play in a January 1st bowl game.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
-On the defensive side of the ball and special teams there are years where we've had units and team statistics in the top 10.
Ibid.
I don't want to nit pick over every statistic but Ohio's had very good performances in each unit over the past 15 years or so.


Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
-You'll produce more NFL talent in FBS and they become ambassadors for the program to further its development. MAC programs have had Top 5 NFL draft picks including the overall #1 a few years back.
Very proud of those MAC programs. What's our track record like? I'm genuinely unclear how this addresses anything I'm talking about. You think it'd be good to produce NFL talent. I don't think it's relevant at all. It doesn't make our program profitable.
Don't you think former players care and follow the program?

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
-The difference between FBS and FCS is not like the difference between MLB and Triple AAA baseball where the players are 98% the same caliber of athlete as an average MLB guy so you can get the same enjoyment out of a Triple AAA game.
I'm not at all concerned about your enjoyment. I'm not sure how to be more clear about that. You seem to think I'm arguing that FBS and FCS football teams play at the same level; I'm not making that argument. I'm saying I don't care, because our university is very bad shape financially.
If this about the money then why not advocate a move down to Division 2? A place where Ohio could compete in all sports for a national championship?

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
-The argument that most of the fans are making that you give up the shot of P5 games at home is actually one of the weaker arguments for it. Financially FCS doesn't make sense and its a decidedly lower caliber of athletic and academic institution in FCS.
I'm not sure I buy that FCS schools are a lower caliber of academic institution. Maybe you're qualifying that with "public FCS schools"? Because FCS includes the Ivy League and Patriot League, which are better academically than most if not all FBS conferences.

I'd also like to see the data on why FCS doesn't make sense financially. You estimate 500k annually in coaching salary savings. Add in the cost savings related to fewer salaries. What money's being lost? TV money. Maybe some gate revenue, though we gave a lot of that away for TV money already. How do the numbers look?
The public FCS schools with a few exceptions are low rated academically and so are the HBCUs. Ivy League is non-scholarship and doesn't compete in the playoff so hardly the MAC is going to be compared with them.

As to the numbers the CFP conference payout averages about 1.5 million then there is bonus for high APR of another 300k. That 1.8 million in CFP a year.

https://247sports.com/college/arkansas-state/Article/Play... /

https://collegefootballplayoff.com/sports/2017/9/20/reven...

The MAC TV deal is another 10 million per year ESPN.

https://apnews.com/d01c9d9805f6460bab475f8d93c32ef6#:~:te... .

NCAA gives the MAC about 20 million a year in combined distribution, part of which is grants in aid. It was 17 million back in 2012. FCS conferences pull in about half the amount.

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2011-12%2BDivisio...
Last Edited: 8/31/2020 6:14:33 PM by TWT
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 8/31/2020 6:15 PM
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I like option C...break the Non-P5 into new tier of college football with a playoff. I hate the concept of being in a "division" that we absolutely have 0 chance of ever winning. Even consistent programs that play a tough schedule and go undefeated have proven it won't happen. Just created a different division...still play P5 teams in non-conference.
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Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
I like option C...break the Non-P5 into new tier of college football with a playoff. I hate the concept of being in a "division" that we absolutely have 0 chance of ever winning. Even consistent programs that play a tough schedule and go undefeated have proven it won't happen. Just created a different division...still play P5 teams in non-conference.
Agree.
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I like option C...break the Non-P5 into new tier of college football with a playoff. I hate the concept of being in a "division" that we absolutely have 0 chance of ever winning. Even consistent programs that play a tough schedule and go undefeated have proven it won't happen. Just created a different division...still play P5 teams in non-conference.


Right with you Andrew not a bad suggestion!
Last Edited: 8/31/2020 8:16:52 PM by Bobcat1996
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Without reading through the whole thread, I can honestly say I would support it. I don't know any of the economics in terms of comparing such a move. I do think, over time, that FCS would be better in terms of having an opportunity to compete in a real national championship tournament, something we'll never have the chance to do as things stand right now. I think the time has come for the schools that won't, or can't try to "keep up with the Joneses" in terms of D1 football economics, to look at moving to FCS.

Beyond that, for my household, as a people whose first focus on football game days is simply the tailgating and hanging out in Athens on a great fall day, I don't think it would change much for me.
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Bobcat1996 wrote:expand_more
I like option C...break the Non-P5 into new tier of college football with a playoff. I hate the concept of being in a "division" that we absolutely have 0 chance of ever winning. Even consistent programs that play a tough schedule and go undefeated have proven it won't happen. Just created a different division...still play P5 teams in non-conference.


Right with you Andrew not a bad suggestion!
That's likely to happen within the next five years. The bar is just too high for G5 teams to make the playoff, even if it expands to eight teams. A G5 (or 4, if the American Conf is let into the "P" club) playoff would be good, especially if the championship is played at one of the NY6 bowls.
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Isn't "option C" the worst case scenario?

In that scenario, we no longer get the revenue share from the P5 schools, but for some reason we're still funding additional scholarships to remain a level above FCS schools? Unless you pull off some a serious marketing coup and turn your tournament into a revenue generator, I'm not sure I see why that's more feasible.

It seems like the argument in favor of staying in FBS basically boils down to the fact that we're on P5 welfare. Without that money, how is option C different than a move to FCS? That would seem to make justifying current salaries and scholarship numbers even harder.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
Isn't "option C" the worst case scenario?

In that scenario, we no longer get the revenue share from the P5 schools, but for some reason we're still funding additional scholarships to remain a level above FCS schools? Unless you pull off some a serious marketing coup and turn your tournament into a revenue generator, I'm not sure I see why that's more feasible.

It seems like the argument in favor of staying in FBS basically boils down to the fact that we're on P5 welfare. Without that money, how is option C different than a move to FCS? That would seem to make justifying current salaries and scholarship numbers even harder.
Yeah, in this scenario you'd probably still get to schedule P5 schools, but would receive none of the benefits from TV revenue or bowl games. So this seems like a worse option.

Unless certain criteria were made like less scholarships, attendance, etc etc etc
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Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
Even consistent programs that play a tough schedule and go undefeated have proven it won't happen.
Think about schools like Boise State, Cincinnati and UCF. They've been on the closest cusp you can be and the P5 would love nothing more than to shut the out from getting their piece of the pie. The only way to improve your standing is making it to one of those leagues (Utah and TCU are excellent examples of this).

I'm not a fan of Boise State, but part of me wishes they don't lose to Nevada in 2010. They were ranked #3 in the BCS at the time and were beating their opponents to a pulp. I doubt they leapfrog Oregon to make it to the title game, but the argument was there. TCU finished that year #2 after going 13-0 in the MWC and beating Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl.
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Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
Its not about profit its about margin. If you spend 500,000 more but make 2.5 million more you are coming out ahead.
Sure. But you haven't sufficiently explained to me how we make 2.5 million more. What you've laid out is that we bring in about $2.6 million dollars by being at the FBS level. But that only equates to 2.5 million more if FCS schools are bringing in 100 grand.

So looking at precise numbers:

Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
As to the numbers the CFP conference payout averages about 1.5 million then there is bonus for high APR of another 300k. That 1.8 million in CFP a year.

https://247sports.com/college/arkansas-state/Article/Play... /

https://collegefootballplayoff.com/sports/2017/9/20/reven...

The MAC TV deal is another 10 million per year ESPN.

https://apnews.com/d01c9d9805f6460bab475f8d93c32ef6#:~:te... .

NCAA gives the MAC about 20 million a year in combined distribution, part of which is grants in aid. It was 17 million back in 2012. FCS conferences pull in about half the amount.

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2011-12%2BDivisio...
That's $2.6 million. Our football coaching salaries are 1.6 million a year (using this to determine assistant salaries (https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/football/assistant ). That's before you consider salaries of non-coach staff (Football Ops, medical, etc).

And that's before you even start to consider money spent on dumb things like a hotel room before home games, or to get way-bigger-than-needed travel parties to away games, and to get Frank access to a plane to fly around and recruit. And, of course, on those extra 22 scholarships.

I'm just having a hard time seeing how the math works out well for us here. I may well be missing something though.
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Even consistent programs that play a tough schedule and go undefeated have proven it won't happen.
Think about schools like Boise State, Cincinnati and UCF. They've been on the closest cusp you can be and the P5 would love nothing more than to shut the out from getting their piece of the pie. The only way to improve your standing is making it to one of those leagues (Utah and TCU are excellent examples of this).

I'm not a fan of Boise State, but part of me wishes they don't lose to Nevada in 2010. They were ranked #3 in the BCS at the time and were beating their opponents to a pulp. I doubt they leapfrog Oregon to make it to the title game, but the argument was there. TCU finished that year #2 after going 13-0 in the MWC and beating Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl.
G5 teams just don't have a chance of making the playoff under the current system. Two years ago UCF was undefeated, but finished 8th in the final CFP ranking, behind two one-loss and two two-loss "P" teams. The highest a one-loss G5 team has finished in the current system (begun in 2014) is 17th (Memphis, last year). G5 teams have to schedule, and beat, multiple mid- to upper-tier "P" teams and go undefeated to even have a shot at the playoff. UCF's 2018 OOC schedule was 1AA SC State, Pitt and FAU. (A game vs UNC was cancelled because of a hurricane.) Not gonna cut it. Scheduling multiple "P" teams will become more difficult as they move to more conference games and more games vs other "P"s in order to boost their resumes.
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