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Topic: 2021 MAC crossover opponents
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Pataskala
1/30/2021 1:16 PM
Victory wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
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BillyTheCat
1/30/2021 11:31 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
Last Edited: 1/31/2021 6:54:09 AM by BillyTheCat
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Pataskala
1/31/2021 11:39 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
Last Edited: 1/31/2021 12:15:07 PM by Pataskala
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BillyTheCat
1/31/2021 5:33 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
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Kevin Finnegan
2/1/2021 11:15 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
Sticking with facts...San Diego won playoff games in both 2016 and 2017 as a non-scholarship FCS school. They lost to perennial power North Dakota State both years in the second round. I'd say that's closer than OHIO has gotten to a national championship in quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League#:~:... .
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BillyTheCat
2/1/2021 12:03 PM
Kevin Finnegan wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
Yep, beat two Big Sky opponents, that's big stuff for the Toreros. But they are 2 - 7 in their playoff appearances. Combined score: 133 for 232 against. In their two 2nd round games they have been outscored 83-10. That's not challenging for a National Title.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
Sticking with facts...San Diego won playoff games in both 2016 and 2017 as a non-scholarship FCS school. They lost to perennial power North Dakota State both years in the second round. I'd say that's closer than OHIO has gotten to a national championship in quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League#:~:... .
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BillyTheCat
2/1/2021 12:26 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
Yep, beat two Big Sky opponents, that's big stuff for the Toreros. But they are 2 - 7 in their playoff appearances. Combined score: 133 for 232 against. In their two 2nd round games they have been outscored 83-10. That's not challenging for a National Title.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
Sticking with facts...San Diego won playoff games in both 2016 and 2017 as a non-scholarship FCS school. They lost to perennial power North Dakota State both years in the second round. I'd say that's closer than OHIO has gotten to a national championship in quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League#:~:... .
I am well aware of the Pioneer League, and have probably actually seen up close the Torores play more than you go. I've also seen Dayton, Morehead, etc., Yes they made the FCS playoffs, yes they have beat the Big Sky opponents twice. However, have they ever actually challenged for the title? They have been outscored in their 2nd round games 83-10. Is that competing? Again, why does it bother some of you so much that a non-scholarship school fails to compete at the highest level of their division FCS fully funded schools.

Also, as you say for the sake of facts: Cal Poly who SD beat in one of their play-off games is NOT fully funded, and when that game was played they operated at 30 scholarships, less than half allowed!!!! Northern Arizona was also NOT a fully funded scholarship football program. So it's not like San Diego was beating a team with 63 scholarships.
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BillyTheCat
2/1/2021 12:29 PM
Again, for a few of you, if scholarships are so over rated and not a determinate to success, why do we even bother spending the money on them?
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Pataskala
2/1/2021 12:54 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
Yep, beat two Big Sky opponents, that's big stuff for the Toreros. But they are 2 - 7 in their playoff appearances. Combined score: 133 for 232 against. In their two 2nd round games they have been outscored 83-10. That's not challenging for a National Title.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
Sticking with facts...San Diego won playoff games in both 2016 and 2017 as a non-scholarship FCS school. They lost to perennial power North Dakota State both years in the second round. I'd say that's closer than OHIO has gotten to a national championship in quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League#:~:... .
I am well aware of the Pioneer League, and have probably actually seen up close the Torores play more than you go. I've also seen Dayton, Morehead, etc., Yes they made the FCS playoffs, yes they have beat the Big Sky opponents twice. However, have they ever actually challenged for the title? They have been outscored in their 2nd round games 83-10. Is that competing? Again, why does it bother some of you so much that a non-scholarship school fails to compete at the highest level of their division FCS fully funded schools.

Also, as you say for the sake of facts: Cal Poly who SD beat in one of their play-off games is NOT fully funded, and when that game was played they operated at 30 scholarships, less than half allowed!!!! Northern Arizona was also NOT a fully funded scholarship football program. So it's not like San Diego was beating a team with 63 scholarships.
Considering that there are only two 1AA conferences that don't offer schollies and one of them (Ivy) has declined to participate in the playoff, playoff performance probably isn't a fair standard for comparison. In any given year as many as 23 of the 24 teams are probably going to be from conferences that offer schollies. And because conferences without schollies weren't allowed into the playoff before 2012, there are only eight seasons (2012-2019) for comparison. But checking over that time frame, Pioneer would be about on par with the Northeast Conference (which allows its schools to offer 38 scholarships) -- neither had an at-large team and neither usually got past the first or second round. They might not be powerhouses, but it's unfair to dismiss them outright.

And your argument always comes back to why other schools offer schollies. Good question. Depends on the school. That would be a good research project for the Sports Administration program, if someone hasn't already done it.
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BillyTheCat
2/1/2021 2:15 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
Yep, beat two Big Sky opponents, that's big stuff for the Toreros. But they are 2 - 7 in their playoff appearances. Combined score: 133 for 232 against. In their two 2nd round games they have been outscored 83-10. That's not challenging for a National Title.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
Sticking with facts...San Diego won playoff games in both 2016 and 2017 as a non-scholarship FCS school. They lost to perennial power North Dakota State both years in the second round. I'd say that's closer than OHIO has gotten to a national championship in quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League#:~:... .
I am well aware of the Pioneer League, and have probably actually seen up close the Torores play more than you go. I've also seen Dayton, Morehead, etc., Yes they made the FCS playoffs, yes they have beat the Big Sky opponents twice. However, have they ever actually challenged for the title? They have been outscored in their 2nd round games 83-10. Is that competing? Again, why does it bother some of you so much that a non-scholarship school fails to compete at the highest level of their division FCS fully funded schools.

Also, as you say for the sake of facts: Cal Poly who SD beat in one of their play-off games is NOT fully funded, and when that game was played they operated at 30 scholarships, less than half allowed!!!! Northern Arizona was also NOT a fully funded scholarship football program. So it's not like San Diego was beating a team with 63 scholarships.
Considering that there are only two 1AA conferences that don't offer schollies and one of them (Ivy) has declined to participate in the playoff, playoff performance probably isn't a fair standard for comparison. In any given year as many as 23 of the 24 teams are probably going to be from conferences that offer schollies. And because conferences without schollies weren't allowed into the playoff before 2012, there are only eight seasons (2012-2019) for comparison. But checking over that time frame, Pioneer would be about on par with the Northeast Conference (which allows its schools to offer 38 scholarships) -- neither had an at-large team and neither usually got past the first or second round. They might not be powerhouses, but it's unfair to dismiss them outright.

And your argument always comes back to why other schools offer schollies. Good question. Depends on the school. That would be a good research project for the Sports Administration program, if someone hasn't already done it.
Alright, well, go look up the head to head records of fully funded FCS schools vs. the Non-Scholarships. If head to head does not convince you, then I do not know what is. San Diego 0-2

So far, you've pulled out 1 player from Dayton, and one team that happens to be on a 37 game winning streak in their conference. Yet has not had any success against a fully funded FCS school. So scholarships still do not matter on the quality of team.

Should OHIO schedule San Diego? If they are that good, it should be a very very good game.
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Pataskala
2/1/2021 2:56 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
Yep, beat two Big Sky opponents, that's big stuff for the Toreros. But they are 2 - 7 in their playoff appearances. Combined score: 133 for 232 against. In their two 2nd round games they have been outscored 83-10. That's not challenging for a National Title.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
Sticking with facts...San Diego won playoff games in both 2016 and 2017 as a non-scholarship FCS school. They lost to perennial power North Dakota State both years in the second round. I'd say that's closer than OHIO has gotten to a national championship in quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League#:~:... .
I am well aware of the Pioneer League, and have probably actually seen up close the Torores play more than you go. I've also seen Dayton, Morehead, etc., Yes they made the FCS playoffs, yes they have beat the Big Sky opponents twice. However, have they ever actually challenged for the title? They have been outscored in their 2nd round games 83-10. Is that competing? Again, why does it bother some of you so much that a non-scholarship school fails to compete at the highest level of their division FCS fully funded schools.

Also, as you say for the sake of facts: Cal Poly who SD beat in one of their play-off games is NOT fully funded, and when that game was played they operated at 30 scholarships, less than half allowed!!!! Northern Arizona was also NOT a fully funded scholarship football program. So it's not like San Diego was beating a team with 63 scholarships.
Considering that there are only two 1AA conferences that don't offer schollies and one of them (Ivy) has declined to participate in the playoff, playoff performance probably isn't a fair standard for comparison. In any given year as many as 23 of the 24 teams are probably going to be from conferences that offer schollies. And because conferences without schollies weren't allowed into the playoff before 2012, there are only eight seasons (2012-2019) for comparison. But checking over that time frame, Pioneer would be about on par with the Northeast Conference (which allows its schools to offer 38 scholarships) -- neither had an at-large team and neither usually got past the first or second round. They might not be powerhouses, but it's unfair to dismiss them outright.

And your argument always comes back to why other schools offer schollies. Good question. Depends on the school. That would be a good research project for the Sports Administration program, if someone hasn't already done it.
Alright, well, go look up the head to head records of fully funded FCS schools vs. the Non-Scholarships. If head to head does not convince you, then I do not know what is. San Diego 0-2

So far, you've pulled out 1 player from Dayton, and one team that happens to be on a 37 game winning streak in their conference. Yet has not had any success against a fully funded FCS school. So scholarships still do not matter on the quality of team.

Should OHIO schedule San Diego? If they are that good, it should be a very very good game.
Probably no worse than some of the other games vs 1AA teams we've had during the Solich era. Like Hampton in 2017 (59-0) or Austin Peay in 2013 (38-0) or Norfolk State in 2012 (44-10). And even if we won 110-0, so what? Do we really schedule 1AA teams to get "a very very good game" or do we schedule them to get some PT for our backups? Given that we've scheduled few 1AA teams with winning records over the past 15 years, I'm sure it's the latter.
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BillyTheCat
2/1/2021 8:38 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
Yep, beat two Big Sky opponents, that's big stuff for the Toreros. But they are 2 - 7 in their playoff appearances. Combined score: 133 for 232 against. In their two 2nd round games they have been outscored 83-10. That's not challenging for a National Title.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
Sticking with facts...San Diego won playoff games in both 2016 and 2017 as a non-scholarship FCS school. They lost to perennial power North Dakota State both years in the second round. I'd say that's closer than OHIO has gotten to a national championship in quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League#:~:... .
I am well aware of the Pioneer League, and have probably actually seen up close the Torores play more than you go. I've also seen Dayton, Morehead, etc., Yes they made the FCS playoffs, yes they have beat the Big Sky opponents twice. However, have they ever actually challenged for the title? They have been outscored in their 2nd round games 83-10. Is that competing? Again, why does it bother some of you so much that a non-scholarship school fails to compete at the highest level of their division FCS fully funded schools.

Also, as you say for the sake of facts: Cal Poly who SD beat in one of their play-off games is NOT fully funded, and when that game was played they operated at 30 scholarships, less than half allowed!!!! Northern Arizona was also NOT a fully funded scholarship football program. So it's not like San Diego was beating a team with 63 scholarships.
Considering that there are only two 1AA conferences that don't offer schollies and one of them (Ivy) has declined to participate in the playoff, playoff performance probably isn't a fair standard for comparison. In any given year as many as 23 of the 24 teams are probably going to be from conferences that offer schollies. And because conferences without schollies weren't allowed into the playoff before 2012, there are only eight seasons (2012-2019) for comparison. But checking over that time frame, Pioneer would be about on par with the Northeast Conference (which allows its schools to offer 38 scholarships) -- neither had an at-large team and neither usually got past the first or second round. They might not be powerhouses, but it's unfair to dismiss them outright.

And your argument always comes back to why other schools offer schollies. Good question. Depends on the school. That would be a good research project for the Sports Administration program, if someone hasn't already done it.
Alright, well, go look up the head to head records of fully funded FCS schools vs. the Non-Scholarships. If head to head does not convince you, then I do not know what is. San Diego 0-2

So far, you've pulled out 1 player from Dayton, and one team that happens to be on a 37 game winning streak in their conference. Yet has not had any success against a fully funded FCS school. So scholarships still do not matter on the quality of team.

Should OHIO schedule San Diego? If they are that good, it should be a very very good game.
Probably no worse than some of the other games vs 1AA teams we've had during the Solich era. Like Hampton in 2017 (59-0) or Austin Peay in 2013 (38-0) or Norfolk State in 2012 (44-10). And even if we won 110-0, so what? Do we really schedule 1AA teams to get "a very very good game" or do we schedule them to get some PT for our backups? Given that we've scheduled few 1AA teams with winning records over the past 15 years, I'm sure it's the latter.
But shouldn't those schools compete since scholarship numbers really do not matter? The fact that we have more than 22 at minimum of a couple of them, and over 30 more than a few of them. You contradict yourself with that data. The entire point of this was that teams with scholarship reductions are simply not as good as schools that fully fund to their level, or the next level up. And IAA does not exist anymore, it's FCS.
Last Edited: 2/1/2021 8:41:44 PM by BillyTheCat
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OhioCatFan
2/2/2021 12:09 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
Yep, beat two Big Sky opponents, that's big stuff for the Toreros. But they are 2 - 7 in their playoff appearances. Combined score: 133 for 232 against. In their two 2nd round games they have been outscored 83-10. That's not challenging for a National Title.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
Sticking with facts...San Diego won playoff games in both 2016 and 2017 as a non-scholarship FCS school. They lost to perennial power North Dakota State both years in the second round. I'd say that's closer than OHIO has gotten to a national championship in quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League#:~:... .
I am well aware of the Pioneer League, and have probably actually seen up close the Torores play more than you go. I've also seen Dayton, Morehead, etc., Yes they made the FCS playoffs, yes they have beat the Big Sky opponents twice. However, have they ever actually challenged for the title? They have been outscored in their 2nd round games 83-10. Is that competing? Again, why does it bother some of you so much that a non-scholarship school fails to compete at the highest level of their division FCS fully funded schools.

Also, as you say for the sake of facts: Cal Poly who SD beat in one of their play-off games is NOT fully funded, and when that game was played they operated at 30 scholarships, less than half allowed!!!! Northern Arizona was also NOT a fully funded scholarship football program. So it's not like San Diego was beating a team with 63 scholarships.
Considering that there are only two 1AA conferences that don't offer schollies and one of them (Ivy) has declined to participate in the playoff, playoff performance probably isn't a fair standard for comparison. In any given year as many as 23 of the 24 teams are probably going to be from conferences that offer schollies. And because conferences without schollies weren't allowed into the playoff before 2012, there are only eight seasons (2012-2019) for comparison. But checking over that time frame, Pioneer would be about on par with the Northeast Conference (which allows its schools to offer 38 scholarships) -- neither had an at-large team and neither usually got past the first or second round. They might not be powerhouses, but it's unfair to dismiss them outright.

And your argument always comes back to why other schools offer schollies. Good question. Depends on the school. That would be a good research project for the Sports Administration program, if someone hasn't already done it.
Alright, well, go look up the head to head records of fully funded FCS schools vs. the Non-Scholarships. If head to head does not convince you, then I do not know what is. San Diego 0-2

So far, you've pulled out 1 player from Dayton, and one team that happens to be on a 37 game winning streak in their conference. Yet has not had any success against a fully funded FCS school. So scholarships still do not matter on the quality of team.

Should OHIO schedule San Diego? If they are that good, it should be a very very good game.
Probably no worse than some of the other games vs 1AA teams we've had during the Solich era. Like Hampton in 2017 (59-0) or Austin Peay in 2013 (38-0) or Norfolk State in 2012 (44-10). And even if we won 110-0, so what? Do we really schedule 1AA teams to get "a very very good game" or do we schedule them to get some PT for our backups? Given that we've scheduled few 1AA teams with winning records over the past 15 years, I'm sure it's the latter.
But shouldn't those schools compete since scholarship numbers really do not matter? The fact that we have more than 22 at minimum of a couple of them, and over 30 more than a few of them. You contradict yourself with that data. The entire point of this was that teams with scholarship reductions are simply not as good as schools that fully fund to their level, or the next level up. And IAA does not exist anymore, it's FCS.
Warning: we are entering Monroe Slavin territory here, and I'm not talking about the merits of the arguments, though against my better judgement I'm tending to agree more with BTC. Scholarships do make a big difference, and schools with more of them tend to field better teams. However, every once in a while you do get the team that defies the odds and is much better than expected based on scholarship numbers, ranking of recruits, past ineptness, conference ranking, etc. Big upsets can, and do happen -- App State when FCS did beat Michigan, Toledo and Ohio have beaten Penn State and Centre College did beat Harvard.
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Pataskala
2/2/2021 10:42 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I don't know that the whole a non-scholarship team won ten games and made the playoffs is a great argument that the non-scholarship team can play. A Pioneer League team plays almost all of its games against other non-scholarship teams and one is now guaranteed to make the playoffs. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen by the rules.

I don't think that the fact that every year there are basketball teams in the SWAC, MEAC, Big South, NEC... that win 20 games and make the NCAA tournament that these conferences are on the level of the better mid-majors and certainly not the P6.
All I'm saying is that teams that don't offer schollies shouldn't automatically be dismissed as inferior to teams that do. They frequently wind up with NFL-quality players. Dayton's Adam Troutman was drafted 105th last year. He wound up playing in 15 games for New Orleans this past season, with 15 catches and a TD. Just because their school isn't giving them a free ride doesn't mean they're lousy players.
Yep, beat two Big Sky opponents, that's big stuff for the Toreros. But they are 2 - 7 in their playoff appearances. Combined score: 133 for 232 against. In their two 2nd round games they have been outscored 83-10. That's not challenging for a National Title.
🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Yeah and that’s ONE player for Dayton. Again, if scholarships don’t matter why do schools give them? You think Alabama would still compete if they did not give scholarships? 🤦🏼‍♂️👌🤦🏼‍♂️ The last scholarship team Dayton beat was a 30 scholarship FCS program, which is actually a DII limit. Yes, the Dayton’s of the world have a player every 10 years make it. But that’s not a team, that’s not depth. If it was so easy, why has Mout Union not been in a NY6 Bowl?

And please show me where I said they are “lousy players”? I never said that. What I am sayin is man for man across the board they are seriously outmanned. Yes, many great players have come from DII, FCS, FCS non-schollies, and DIiI. But over all talent, size and speed is not even close.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't believe that football teams should be automatically dismissed as inferior simply because they don't offer schollies.
So, I’ll go above opinion with fact. Please tell me the last time an FCS non-scholarship team actually competed for a national championship? Or for that matter actually competed and won a playoff game.
Sticking with facts...San Diego won playoff games in both 2016 and 2017 as a non-scholarship FCS school. They lost to perennial power North Dakota State both years in the second round. I'd say that's closer than OHIO has gotten to a national championship in quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Football_League#:~:... .
I am well aware of the Pioneer League, and have probably actually seen up close the Torores play more than you go. I've also seen Dayton, Morehead, etc., Yes they made the FCS playoffs, yes they have beat the Big Sky opponents twice. However, have they ever actually challenged for the title? They have been outscored in their 2nd round games 83-10. Is that competing? Again, why does it bother some of you so much that a non-scholarship school fails to compete at the highest level of their division FCS fully funded schools.

Also, as you say for the sake of facts: Cal Poly who SD beat in one of their play-off games is NOT fully funded, and when that game was played they operated at 30 scholarships, less than half allowed!!!! Northern Arizona was also NOT a fully funded scholarship football program. So it's not like San Diego was beating a team with 63 scholarships.
Considering that there are only two 1AA conferences that don't offer schollies and one of them (Ivy) has declined to participate in the playoff, playoff performance probably isn't a fair standard for comparison. In any given year as many as 23 of the 24 teams are probably going to be from conferences that offer schollies. And because conferences without schollies weren't allowed into the playoff before 2012, there are only eight seasons (2012-2019) for comparison. But checking over that time frame, Pioneer would be about on par with the Northeast Conference (which allows its schools to offer 38 scholarships) -- neither had an at-large team and neither usually got past the first or second round. They might not be powerhouses, but it's unfair to dismiss them outright.

And your argument always comes back to why other schools offer schollies. Good question. Depends on the school. That would be a good research project for the Sports Administration program, if someone hasn't already done it.
Alright, well, go look up the head to head records of fully funded FCS schools vs. the Non-Scholarships. If head to head does not convince you, then I do not know what is. San Diego 0-2

So far, you've pulled out 1 player from Dayton, and one team that happens to be on a 37 game winning streak in their conference. Yet has not had any success against a fully funded FCS school. So scholarships still do not matter on the quality of team.

Should OHIO schedule San Diego? If they are that good, it should be a very very good game.
Probably no worse than some of the other games vs 1AA teams we've had during the Solich era. Like Hampton in 2017 (59-0) or Austin Peay in 2013 (38-0) or Norfolk State in 2012 (44-10). And even if we won 110-0, so what? Do we really schedule 1AA teams to get "a very very good game" or do we schedule them to get some PT for our backups? Given that we've scheduled few 1AA teams with winning records over the past 15 years, I'm sure it's the latter.
But shouldn't those schools compete since scholarship numbers really do not matter? The fact that we have more than 22 at minimum of a couple of them, and over 30 more than a few of them. You contradict yourself with that data. The entire point of this was that teams with scholarship reductions are simply not as good as schools that fully fund to their level, or the next level up. And IAA does not exist anymore, it's FCS.
Warning: we are entering Monroe Slavin territory here, and I'm not talking about the merits of the arguments, though against my better judgement I'm tending to agree more with BTC. Scholarships do make a big difference, and schools with more of them tend to field better teams. However, every once in a while you do get the team that defies the odds and is much better than expected based on scholarship numbers, ranking of recruits, past ineptness, conference ranking, etc. Big upsets can, and do happen -- App State when FCS did beat Michigan, Toledo and Ohio have beaten Penn State and Centre College did beat Harvard.

Thank you, OCF. That's exactly my point. Let's move on.
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bobcatsquared
2/2/2021 10:50 AM
The only thing more ridiculous than this back-and-forth between pataskala and btc is the absurdity of the ever-growing quote boxes. Am I the only one that sees the unnecessary redundancy in quote boxes?

And is "unnecessary redundancy" a redundancy?
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Pataskala
2/2/2021 11:03 AM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
The only thing more ridiculous than this back-and-forth between pataskala and btc is the absurdity of the ever-growing quote boxes. Am I the only one that sees the unnecessary redundancy in quote boxes?

And is "unnecessary redundancy" a redundancy?
It's from the Department of Redundancy, Needless Repetition and Useless Repetitiveness.

Sometimes it helps those who come in late to the discussion to figure out what's going on. I usually edit out earlier ones when the discussion changes direction.
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bobcatsquared
2/2/2021 11:39 AM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
It's from the Department of Redundancy, Needless Repetition and Useless Repetitiveness.
Monty Python skit?
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OhioCatFan
2/2/2021 12:08 PM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
The only thing more ridiculous than this back-and-forth between pataskala and btc is the absurdity of the ever-growing quote boxes. Am I the only one that sees the unnecessary redundancy in quote boxes?

And is "unnecessary redundancy" a redundancy?
You obviously aren’t inside the art object! ;-) It’s not the content, but the overall experience once immersed in this art form. Having said that, it may be an acquired taste. Monroe might be available to mentor you.
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Pataskala
2/2/2021 4:18 PM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
It's from the Department of Redundancy, Needless Repetition and Useless Repetitiveness.
Monty Python skit?
Here's what this thread turned into: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2hwqn9
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BillyTheCat
2/2/2021 7:25 PM
OCF, when we beat Penn State we actually had more scholarships due to the NCAA restrictions from the Sandusky fallout.

So there, you helped me prove a point.
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OhioCatFan
2/2/2021 10:39 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
OCF, when we beat Penn State we actually had more scholarships due to the NCAA restrictions from the Sandusky fallout.

So there, you helped me prove a point.
I'm always here to help you, BTC.
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RSBobcat
2/2/2021 11:37 PM
I need to look at investing in popcorn.....
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Kevin Finnegan
2/3/2021 10:34 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
OCF, when we beat Penn State we actually had more scholarships due to the NCAA restrictions from the Sandusky fallout.

So there, you helped me prove a point.
I don't think that's actually true. I believe at the time we played them, we were on similar footing scholarship-wise. The punishment of the loss of scholarships for Penn State was handed down on July 22, 2012. It called for a reduction of 10 scholarships a year with a cap at 65 scholarships rather than 85. However, those sanctions were not to kick in until 2014. We played them on September 1, 2012, only a month and a half after the sanctions were announced. At that point, Penn State was not yet required to decrease their scholarships. They had a little grace period. Now, what may have been the case is that, with the announcement in July, the NCAA also allowed any player from Penn State to transfer immediately without penalty. I'm not sure how many took the school up on that, but I think I recall a running back going to USC or something.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/sports/ncaafootball/pe...
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BillyTheCat
2/3/2021 3:49 PM
You miss the exudous of players that resulted in the investigations and that in preparing for the loss of scholarships the next year they did not fill the openings knowing the reduction was coming, so yes they did not field the 85 allowed in 2012. They were ultimately dropping to 65 which was eased the next year to their compliance and self actions and voluntary reductions they took earlier than 2014. But still in 2012 we had more scholarships and I’d put a paycheck on that.
Last Edited: 2/3/2021 3:53:19 PM by BillyTheCat
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colobobcat66
2/3/2021 8:08 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
You miss the exudous of players that resulted in the investigations and that in preparing for the loss of scholarships the next year they did not fill the openings knowing the reduction was coming, so yes they did not field the 85 allowed in 2012. They were ultimately dropping to 65 which was eased the next year to their compliance and self actions and voluntary reductions they took earlier than 2014. But still in 2012 we had more scholarships and I’d put a paycheck on that.
But visiting teams are limited in players so how many did we have there? Asking for a friend.
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