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Topic: What's wrong with our Defense?
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colobobcat66
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Posted: 10/5/2022 11:27 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I believe we have quite a few good to very good players, so I don’t think it’s just lack of talent.

Really? I think our lack of talent explains the problem.

As to Jimmy Burrow, you must be forgetting his last 1-2 defensive squads, which had horrendous secondary play. There was one year (2017?) when I believe we gave up bombs for TDs on the first play of consecutive games, including Kent. I hadn't even found my seat before we were down 7-zip.

One definite problem on D is #8. He was playing flag football yesterday -- tapped a couple of receivers after their catches rather than tackling them. One went for 40 yards after his contact yesterday. He did the same thing against Penn State; the running back scampered 40ish yards along the sideline for a TD.
I disagree. Of course we don’t have a team of 4 and 5 stars and we never had. We have enough talent to be a lot better than we are. That falls on the coaches to get them prepared, develop them, play the right players, have good game plans, schemes etc. I don’t think that’s happening.
I am curious as to what you base this "talent" on? Our recruiting classes?

We’ll since they recruiting classes are made up of players-yes. Like I’ve said, we’ve never had highly rated recruiting classes, but we’ve never done this bad on defense. I’d throw out Cox, Drake, Floyd, Sanders, Scales as equal to what we usually have.
Last Edited: 10/5/2022 11:34:45 AM by colobobcat66
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/5/2022 12:17 PM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
I believe we have quite a few good to very good players, so I don’t think it’s just lack of talent.

Really? I think our lack of talent explains the problem.

As to Jimmy Burrow, you must be forgetting his last 1-2 defensive squads, which had horrendous secondary play. There was one year (2017?) when I believe we gave up bombs for TDs on the first play of consecutive games, including Kent. I hadn't even found my seat before we were down 7-zip.

One definite problem on D is #8. He was playing flag football yesterday -- tapped a couple of receivers after their catches rather than tackling them. One went for 40 yards after his contact yesterday. He did the same thing against Penn State; the running back scampered 40ish yards along the sideline for a TD.
I disagree. Of course we don’t have a team of 4 and 5 stars and we never had. We have enough talent to be a lot better than we are. That falls on the coaches to get them prepared, develop them, play the right players, have good game plans, schemes etc. I don’t think that’s happening.
I am curious as to what you base this "talent" on? Our recruiting classes?

We’ll since they recruiting classes are made up of players-yes. Like I’ve said, we’ve never had highly rated recruiting classes, but we’ve never done this bad on defense. I’d throw out Cox, Drake, Floyd, Sanders, Scales as equal to what we usually have.
We have guys like Daxson, that so many swooned over and crowned the 2nd coming and predicted all these great things for. Now through two different DC's, still nothing? And really? Look at the number of defensive players we've had in NFL camps, you really think the people on this team are that caliber?
colobobcat66
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Posted: 10/5/2022 12:49 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I believe we have quite a few good to very good players, so I don’t think it’s just lack of talent.

Really? I think our lack of talent explains the problem.

As to Jimmy Burrow, you must be forgetting his last 1-2 defensive squads, which had horrendous secondary play. There was one year (2017?) when I believe we gave up bombs for TDs on the first play of consecutive games, including Kent. I hadn't even found my seat before we were down 7-zip.

One definite problem on D is #8. He was playing flag football yesterday -- tapped a couple of receivers after their catches rather than tackling them. One went for 40 yards after his contact yesterday. He did the same thing against Penn State; the running back scampered 40ish yards along the sideline for a TD.
I disagree. Of course we don’t have a team of 4 and 5 stars and we never had. We have enough talent to be a lot better than we are. That falls on the coaches to get them prepared, develop them, play the right players, have good game plans, schemes etc. I don’t think that’s happening.
I am curious as to what you base this "talent" on? Our recruiting classes?

We’ll since they recruiting classes are made up of players-yes. Like I’ve said, we’ve never had highly rated recruiting classes, but we’ve never done this bad on defense. I’d throw out Cox, Drake, Floyd, Sanders, Scales as equal to what we usually have.
We have guys like Daxson, that so many swooned over and crowned the 2nd coming and predicted all these great things for. Now through two different DC's, still nothing? And really? Look at the number of defensive players we've had in NFL camps, you really think the people on this team are that caliber?

Time will tell on that. I have no idea.-why don’t you just say they all stink if that’s what you say since you know everything.. Daxson was highly rated, so what? You know the rating services make lots of mistakes, at least he’s playing.
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/5/2022 1:22 PM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
I believe we have quite a few good to very good players, so I don’t think it’s just lack of talent.

Really? I think our lack of talent explains the problem.

As to Jimmy Burrow, you must be forgetting his last 1-2 defensive squads, which had horrendous secondary play. There was one year (2017?) when I believe we gave up bombs for TDs on the first play of consecutive games, including Kent. I hadn't even found my seat before we were down 7-zip.

One definite problem on D is #8. He was playing flag football yesterday -- tapped a couple of receivers after their catches rather than tackling them. One went for 40 yards after his contact yesterday. He did the same thing against Penn State; the running back scampered 40ish yards along the sideline for a TD.
I disagree. Of course we don’t have a team of 4 and 5 stars and we never had. We have enough talent to be a lot better than we are. That falls on the coaches to get them prepared, develop them, play the right players, have good game plans, schemes etc. I don’t think that’s happening.
I am curious as to what you base this "talent" on? Our recruiting classes?

We’ll since they recruiting classes are made up of players-yes. Like I’ve said, we’ve never had highly rated recruiting classes, but we’ve never done this bad on defense. I’d throw out Cox, Drake, Floyd, Sanders, Scales as equal to what we usually have.
We have guys like Daxson, that so many swooned over and crowned the 2nd coming and predicted all these great things for. Now through two different DC's, still nothing? And really? Look at the number of defensive players we've had in NFL camps, you really think the people on this team are that caliber?

Time will tell on that. I have no idea.-why don’t you just say they all stink if that’s what you say since you know everything.. Daxson was highly rated, so what? You know the rating services make lots of mistakes, at least he’s playing.
Oh, I'm sorry, not sure how players of this high caliber ended up at OHIO! They are playing hard, they are trying and giving effort. I'm happy with that! No one here even gave us a chance to be in the game with Kent, when we are in the game then we find something else to complain about. This team is not that talented, and has not been since the 2018-19 campaign. Many forget that COVID saved us from a bad year, the games that were cancelled all happened to be games where we were not favored and against the better teams in the league. And our highest rated player ever was rated like that when people thought he was actually 18 on those films. But I digress, I fail to see where some of you believe we have all this talent and it's just not being used properly.
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Posted: 10/5/2022 2:42 PM
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Burrows defense was NFL-like. Our old DBs used to pass WRs off to the next zone defender (ala Steelers). Our safeties blitzed on 3rd downs (ala Mitchell at Ohio State).

The new age game is to bend dont break. However Georgia and Bama switched from man after Clemson title lose. They play "catch zone" and pass defender off to next zone.

Do we have the personnel to blitz and not get beat? Not yet.
Last Edited: 10/5/2022 2:43:55 PM by ExCat21
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 10/5/2022 3:46 PM
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Thinking of current DB troubles got me to thinking of what might have been Ohio's best DB unit going back to the arrival of Jim Grobe in 1995.

I've long thought that Ohio's best DB unit since then was the 1997 bunch.
* Tevell Jones. Very athletic. 7 ints. One of those pics saw him diving and parallel to the turf when he made the catch.
* Dennis Fitzgerald. The intimidator. Saw many WRs short-arm reception attempts when they knew Fitzgerald was nearby.
* Mark Stubbs. 2 ints.
* Sean Williams. 1 int. He also did kick return duty and averaged 26.4 yards per return.

The 1996 unit also included Brandon Cade who had 3 ints.

Hmmm...Where did Grobe find those guys? How did he get them to Athens? Once there, who coached them?
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Posted: 10/5/2022 4:30 PM
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That secondary was insane. Hitters and cover guys. It’s so hard to compare to the game today. Nobody was slinging it 50 plus times a game back then. Make no mistake that group was great.
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Posted: 10/5/2022 4:45 PM
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Mike Johnson wrote:expand_more
Thinking of current DB troubles got me to thinking of what might have been Ohio's best DB unit going back to the arrival of Jim Grobe in 1995.

I've long thought that Ohio's best DB unit since then was the 1997 bunch.
* Tevell Jones. Very athletic. 7 ints. One of those pics saw him diving and parallel to the turf when he made the catch.
* Dennis Fitzgerald. The intimidator. Saw many WRs short-arm reception attempts when they knew Fitzgerald was nearby.
* Mark Stubbs. 2 ints.
* Sean Williams. 1 int. He also did kick return duty and averaged 26.4 yards per return.

The 1996 unit also included Brandon Cade who had 3 ints.

Hmmm...Where did Grobe find those guys? How did he get them to Athens? Once there, who coached them?
Cade started in 1997 also. Williams was the nickleback.
colobobcat66
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Posted: 10/5/2022 4:54 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I believe we have quite a few good to very good players, so I don’t think it’s just lack of talent.

Really? I think our lack of talent explains the problem.

As to Jimmy Burrow, you must be forgetting his last 1-2 defensive squads, which had horrendous secondary play. There was one year (2017?) when I believe we gave up bombs for TDs on the first play of consecutive games, including Kent. I hadn't even found my seat before we were down 7-zip.

One definite problem on D is #8. He was playing flag football yesterday -- tapped a couple of receivers after their catches rather than tackling them. One went for 40 yards after his contact yesterday. He did the same thing against Penn State; the running back scampered 40ish yards along the sideline for a TD.
I disagree. Of course we don’t have a team of 4 and 5 stars and we never had. We have enough talent to be a lot better than we are. That falls on the coaches to get them prepared, develop them, play the right players, have good game plans, schemes etc. I don’t think that’s happening.
I am curious as to what you base this "talent" on? Our recruiting classes?

We’ll since they recruiting classes are made up of players-yes. Like I’ve said, we’ve never had highly rated recruiting classes, but we’ve never done this bad on defense. I’d throw out Cox, Drake, Floyd, Sanders, Scales as equal to what we usually have.
We have guys like Daxson, that so many swooned over and crowned the 2nd coming and predicted all these great things for. Now through two different DC's, still nothing? And really? Look at the number of defensive players we've had in NFL camps, you really think the people on this team are that caliber?

Time will tell on that. I have no idea.-why don’t you just say they all stink if that’s what you say since you know everything.. Daxson was highly rated, so what? You know the rating services make lots of mistakes, at least he’s playing.
Oh, I'm sorry, not sure how players of this high caliber ended up at OHIO! They are playing hard, they are trying and giving effort. I'm happy with that! No one here even gave us a chance to be in the game with Kent, when we are in the game then we find something else to complain about. This team is not that talented, and has not been since the 2018-19 campaign. Many forget that COVID saved us from a bad year, the games that were cancelled all happened to be games where we were not favored and against the better teams in the league. And our highest rated player ever was rated like that when people thought he was actually 18 on those films. But I digress, I fail to see where some of you believe we have all this talent and it's just not being used properly.

You’re speculating about the 2020 year to prove your point-pretty meaningless. My point has been that the talent is probably comparable to many previous years and that coaching may be responsible for some of the drop off in results. Even last year, four of the losses were games that were competitive( within one score or single digits)even against some of the better teams. Losses in close games often come down to coaching decisions. By the way, I’m not sure Albin is necessarily the reason we’re so bad on defense. As pointed out above, it’s way worse than previous years. Why is that? Some kind of huge drop off in talent? I think not.
Last Edited: 10/5/2022 5:01:21 PM by colobobcat66
GoCats105
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Posted: 10/5/2022 5:24 PM
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Mike Johnson wrote:expand_more
Thinking of current DB troubles got me to thinking of what might have been Ohio's best DB unit going back to the arrival of Jim Grobe in 1995.

I've long thought that Ohio's best DB unit since then was the 1997 bunch.
* Tevell Jones. Very athletic. 7 ints. One of those pics saw him diving and parallel to the turf when he made the catch.
* Dennis Fitzgerald. The intimidator. Saw many WRs short-arm reception attempts when they knew Fitzgerald was nearby.
* Mark Stubbs. 2 ints.
* Sean Williams. 1 int. He also did kick return duty and averaged 26.4 yards per return.

The 1996 unit also included Brandon Cade who had 3 ints.

Hmmm...Where did Grobe find those guys? How did he get them to Athens? Once there, who coached them?
I'll see that and raise you the 2008 squad. I don't remember why we went 4-8 that season but I can't imagine it was a problem with this secondary.

Mike Mitchell
TJ Carrie
Julian Posey
Mark Parson
Steven Jackson
Thad Turner
Patrick Tafua
Idris Lawrence
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Posted: 10/5/2022 5:38 PM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=Mike Johnson]

I'll see that and raise you the 2008 squad. I don't remember why we went 4-8 that season but I can't imagine it was a problem with this secondary.

Mike Mitchell
TJ Carrie
Julian Posey
Mark Parson
Steven Jackson
Thad Turner
Patrick Tafua
Idris Lawrence
For big wins and big play makers, I'd go two years later with Carrie and Posey, the Leftwiches in reserve and Nathan Carpenter and Moore. Of course Mike Mitchell made it in the NFL but I'm not sure he made as many game changing plays as little Nathan Carpenter (Marshall win comes to mind)
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Posted: 10/5/2022 8:37 PM
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How about 2005? They had four DBs that later had NFL contracts:
Dion Byrum
Mark Parson
Mark Mitchell
TJ Wright

Wright, unfortunately, was injured shortly after signing, and never played. Parson and Bryrum mostly were on practice squads, but both did play some.
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Posted: 10/6/2022 8:47 AM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
I believe we have quite a few good to very good players, so I don’t think it’s just lack of talent.

Really? I think our lack of talent explains the problem.

As to Jimmy Burrow, you must be forgetting his last 1-2 defensive squads, which had horrendous secondary play. There was one year (2017?) when I believe we gave up bombs for TDs on the first play of consecutive games, including Kent. I hadn't even found my seat before we were down 7-zip.

One definite problem on D is #8. He was playing flag football yesterday -- tapped a couple of receivers after their catches rather than tackling them. One went for 40 yards after his contact yesterday. He did the same thing against Penn State; the running back scampered 40ish yards along the sideline for a TD.
I disagree. Of course we don’t have a team of 4 and 5 stars and we never had. We have enough talent to be a lot better than we are. That falls on the coaches to get them prepared, develop them, play the right players, have good game plans, schemes etc. I don’t think that’s happening.
I am curious as to what you base this "talent" on? Our recruiting classes?

We’ll since they recruiting classes are made up of players-yes. Like I’ve said, we’ve never had highly rated recruiting classes, but we’ve never done this bad on defense. I’d throw out Cox, Drake, Floyd, Sanders, Scales as equal to what we usually have.
We have guys like Daxson, that so many swooned over and crowned the 2nd coming and predicted all these great things for. Now through two different DC's, still nothing? And really? Look at the number of defensive players we've had in NFL camps, you really think the people on this team are that caliber?

Time will tell on that. I have no idea.-why don’t you just say they all stink if that’s what you say since you know everything.. Daxson was highly rated, so what? You know the rating services make lots of mistakes, at least he’s playing.
Oh, I'm sorry, not sure how players of this high caliber ended up at OHIO! They are playing hard, they are trying and giving effort. I'm happy with that! No one here even gave us a chance to be in the game with Kent, when we are in the game then we find something else to complain about. This team is not that talented, and has not been since the 2018-19 campaign. Many forget that COVID saved us from a bad year, the games that were cancelled all happened to be games where we were not favored and against the better teams in the league. And our highest rated player ever was rated like that when people thought he was actually 18 on those films. But I digress, I fail to see where some of you believe we have all this talent and it's just not being used properly.

You’re speculating about the 2020 year to prove your point-pretty meaningless. My point has been that the talent is probably comparable to many previous years and that coaching may be responsible for some of the drop off in results. Even last year, four of the losses were games that were competitive( within one score or single digits)even against some of the better teams. Losses in close games often come down to coaching decisions. By the way, I’m not sure Albin is necessarily the reason we’re so bad on defense. As pointed out above, it’s way worse than previous years. Why is that? Some kind of huge drop off in talent? I think not.
Your correct, now that I see these other posts about various secondaries of the past, this unit is every bit as good as any group we've ever had here at OHIO.
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Posted: 10/6/2022 8:49 AM
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How about:

David White
Donnie White
Joe Sellers
Chris London

That was the backend of one of the best defenses in OHIO history. But as CC66 tells me, they are not as talented as what we have now.
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Posted: 10/6/2022 8:55 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
How about:

David White
Donnie White
Joe Sellers
Chris London

That was the backend of one of the best defenses in OHIO history. But as CC66 tells me, they are not as talented as what we have now.
Just out of curiosity, what leads you to assert that? Evidence?
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Posted: 10/6/2022 8:57 AM
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Mike Johnson wrote:expand_more
How about:

David White
Donnie White
Joe Sellers
Chris London

That was the backend of one of the best defenses in OHIO history. But as CC66 tells me, they are not as talented as what we have now.
Just out of curiosity, what leads you to assert that? Evidence?
Assert what? two things in that statement.

The 2000 defense was 18th in the nation in scoring against, allowing 18.9 ppg. I would say that is pretty good.
Last Edited: 10/6/2022 9:02:38 AM by BillyTheCat
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 10/6/2022 9:24 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
How about:

David White
Donnie White
Joe Sellers
Chris London

That was the backend of one of the best defenses in OHIO history. But as CC66 tells me, they are not as talented as what we have now.
Just out of curiosity, what leads you to assert that? Evidence?
Assert what? two things in that statement.

The 2000 defense was 18th in the nation in scoring against, allowing 18.9 ppg. I would say that is pretty good.
I apologize. I misread your post as saying this 2022 unit is the equal of those cited above.
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Posted: 10/6/2022 10:29 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
How about:

David White
Donnie White
Joe Sellers
Chris London

That was the backend of one of the best defenses in OHIO history. But as CC66 tells me, they are not as talented as what we have now.
Just out of curiosity, what leads you to assert that? Evidence?
Assert what? two things in that statement.

The 2000 defense was 18th in the nation in scoring against, allowing 18.9 ppg. I would say that is pretty good.
Being the stat guru that you are, I think you know that there is a reason for those stats that has nothing to do with defensive efficiency.
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Posted: 10/6/2022 10:56 AM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
How about:

David White
Donnie White
Joe Sellers
Chris London

That was the backend of one of the best defenses in OHIO history. But as CC66 tells me, they are not as talented as what we have now.
Just out of curiosity, what leads you to assert that? Evidence?
Assert what? two things in that statement.

The 2000 defense was 18th in the nation in scoring against, allowing 18.9 ppg. I would say that is pretty good.
Being the stat guru that you are, I think you know that there is a reason for those stats that has nothing to do with defensive efficiency.

A ball control offense that eats the clock can shorten the game considerably. Yards given up per play may be a better metric for comparing different years.
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Posted: 10/6/2022 11:05 AM
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L.C. wrote:expand_more
How about:

David White
Donnie White
Joe Sellers
Chris London

That was the backend of one of the best defenses in OHIO history. But as CC66 tells me, they are not as talented as what we have now.
Just out of curiosity, what leads you to assert that? Evidence?
Assert what? two things in that statement.

The 2000 defense was 18th in the nation in scoring against, allowing 18.9 ppg. I would say that is pretty good.
Being the stat guru that you are, I think you know that there is a reason for those stats that has nothing to do with defensive efficiency.

A ball control offense that eats the clock can shorten the game considerably. Yards given up per play may be a better metric for comparing different years.

When you look at the QB's that defense went against, I would say they were a pretty good group. But the entire point of this, is the claim that todays secondary is as talented as ones in the past.
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Posted: 10/6/2022 11:21 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
How about:

David White
Donnie White
Joe Sellers
Chris London

That was the backend of one of the best defenses in OHIO history. But as CC66 tells me, they are not as talented as what we have now.
Just out of curiosity, what leads you to assert that? Evidence?
Assert what? two things in that statement.

The 2000 defense was 18th in the nation in scoring against, allowing 18.9 ppg. I would say that is pretty good.
Being the stat guru that you are, I think you know that there is a reason for those stats that has nothing to do with defensive efficiency.

A ball control offense that eats the clock can shorten the game considerably. Yards given up per play may be a better metric for comparing different years.

When you look at the QB's that defense went against, I would say they were a pretty good group. But the entire point of this, is the claim that todays secondary is as talented as ones in the past.
Plus CL produced some amazing snot bubbles when he played.
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Posted: 10/6/2022 10:41 PM
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L.C. wrote:expand_more
How about 2005? They had four DBs that later had NFL contracts:
Dion Byrum
Mark Parson
Mark Mitchell
TJ Wright

Wright, unfortunately, was injured shortly after signing, and never played. Parson and Bryrum mostly were on practice squads, but both did play some.
This is true of the 2008 squad posted earlier. I felt during most of the Knorr years and the early Solich era that the secondary was almost always the strongest unit Ohio had.
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Posted: 10/7/2022 10:33 AM
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Victory wrote:expand_more
How about 2005? They had four DBs that later had NFL contracts:
Dion Byrum
Mark Parson
Mark Mitchell
TJ Wright

Wright, unfortunately, was injured shortly after signing, and never played. Parson and Bryrum mostly were on practice squads, but both did play some.
This is true of the 2008 squad posted earlier. I felt during most of the Knorr years and the early Solich era that the secondary was almost always the strongest unit Ohio had.
Great secondary as well with talent. I'm still miffed how some posters think this defense is loaded with talent. They are playing hard, but talent? Just not much there. That being said, they will win ball games this year.
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Posted: 10/7/2022 10:45 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
How about 2005? They had four DBs that later had NFL contracts:
Dion Byrum
Mark Parson
Mark Mitchell
TJ Wright

Wright, unfortunately, was injured shortly after signing, and never played. Parson and Bryrum mostly were on practice squads, but both did play some.
This is true of the 2008 squad posted earlier. I felt during most of the Knorr years and the early Solich era that the secondary was almost always the strongest unit Ohio had.
Great secondary as well with talent. I'm still miffed how some posters think this defense is loaded with talent. They are playing hard, but talent? Just not much there. That being said, they will win ball games this year.
So tells us how good a recruiter do you think Albin will be if he's given an extenstion. Will our talent level increase? Also, how do you rate Albin as a head coach? As good as Solich? Better than Solich? Worse than Solich?
Last Edited: 10/7/2022 10:46:19 AM by OhioCatFan
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/7/2022 10:55 AM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
How about 2005? They had four DBs that later had NFL contracts:
Dion Byrum
Mark Parson
Mark Mitchell
TJ Wright

Wright, unfortunately, was injured shortly after signing, and never played. Parson and Bryrum mostly were on practice squads, but both did play some.
This is true of the 2008 squad posted earlier. I felt during most of the Knorr years and the early Solich era that the secondary was almost always the strongest unit Ohio had.
Great secondary as well with talent. I'm still miffed how some posters think this defense is loaded with talent. They are playing hard, but talent? Just not much there. That being said, they will win ball games this year.
So tells us how good a recruiter do you think Albin will be if he's given an extenstion. Will our talent level increase? Also, how do you rate Albin as a head coach? As good as Solich? Better than Solich? Worse than Solich?
Well first off, Solich had 16 years to produce no MAC titles, and go to Bowl games in the age of 65% of schools going Bowling. Tim has had 1 recruiting class. ONE! He's had one year where he has been able to work with a staff of his choosing. I mean, I get we are a fickle society, but really? Some of you are something else!

As for my thoughts, I see improvement in many areas, but there is a LOT of work to do. In some areas I see more positivity than has been in a long time.
Last Edited: 10/7/2022 10:57:17 AM by BillyTheCat
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