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Topic: Sports Administration siding with Faculty Senate on ICA spending!
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OUPride
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Posted: 11/2/2010 11:26 AM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
The current level of athletics spending is simply unsustainable over the long-term without a significant increase in booster donations. 



Also, Vedder and Ridpath are just the academy protecting the academy. 


Actually, you're quite wrong about Vedder.  I disagree with pretty much all of his vision for higher education, but he has been a consistent proponent of shrinking higher education in the United States--not just college athletics.  Many of his proposals include lowering the number of students pursuing four year degrees (channeling them instead into for-profit schools and in-house corporate training), doing away with federal financial aid, federal and state support for academic research, and in extreme cases the very notion of public state universities.

Vedder has some dangerous, whacked out views of higher education.  But--credit where's it's due--he is being completely philosophically consistent and true to his beliefs here.
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 11/2/2010 1:02 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Certainly the Big 10 institutions would argue that Athletics has been an asset to their advancement, not a detriment as Bert and Ernie would have you believe.


There is a huge difference between the Big 10 athletics funding model and ours.  75% of our athletics budget comes from institutional (i.e. non-athletics generated) funds.  That is the 4th highest percentage out of all public FBS institutions.  The only schools more dependent on institutional funds on a percentage basis are EMU, Florida International, and Buffalo.  In fact, MAC teams make up 10 of the top 21 most subsidized athletic departments in all of FBS:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/01/19/subsidy

Now you might say, well the BCS conference schools all have significantly higher athletics budgets, so maybe they actually spend more institutional funds, even though it makes up a smaller percentage of their athletics budget.  But that would be wrong as well.  Only one BCS program - Rutgers - uses more institutional dollars to support athletics that Ohio does. 

Our funding model for athletics is thus radically different than the vast majority of FBS institutions.  Hardly anyone else in FBS does things the way we do.  And that's because unlike the vast majority of athletic programs, ours only sustains enough interest to generate a paltry sum of revenue.  In other words, most schools can justify increased athletics spending because there is significant demand for their programs.  We don't have that.  It hurts to admit it, but comparatively speaking very few people really care about or support Ohio athletics, by any measure (season ticket base, merchandise revenues, alumni donations, television packages, etc.). 

So why is that?  Part of the reason undoubtedly is a lack of tradition, especially in football.  But a bigger part of it is the fact that Ohio University is situated in an extremely small town smack dab in the middle one of the poorest regions in the entire country, in a state where college athletics are dominated by an institution 90 miles up the road.  Unlike a Butler, Xavier, Memphis, Louisville, TCU, or Dayton, we don't have significant business interests or a large alumni base in town to call upon for donations.  Unlike Boise State, we aren't the only show in a state without a BCS level college or professional sports team.  Rather, we compete with 6 professional teams (not inlcuding the semi-professional Suckeyes), 7 other FBS programs (2 of which went to BCS bowls last year), and 5 more Division I basketball programs just in the state of Ohio alone. 

We all want to believe in the potential of Ohio athletics.  And if all the stars magically align some day, maybe we have an outside chance of achieving those dreams.  But the fact of the matter is that every other Division I program in the country also harbors the belief that it too can be the next big thing.  Almost none of us will.  Yet, few of those schools divert anywhere near the amount of institutional money from academics that we do in order to pursue that pipe dream, especially when compared to how little revenue and interest our athletics programs actually generate. 

Again, this is simply not a sustainable model under any rational analysis.  For someone who prides himself on "real world" business sensibilities, you should be able to recognize that.

Edit: In short, throwing even more institutional funds at athletics is not the answer.  Rather, we must tap new lines of outside funding.  If athletics is a priority for this administration, it must push hard for private donations to athletics, perhaps even at the expense of donations to other university accounts.  Without a significant increase in outside donations, eventually the axe will fall on athletics, it is just a matter of time.


Given the size of MAC schools, I would expect them to show up on this list. Where are the per student metrics? How does an Ohio University student's fees compare to those of BCS and non-BCS? What impact does the fee have on college selection?

Everything is relative. If Ohio spends $20M on Athletics across its students, how does that compare to the $11M Wofford spends on athletics across its 1,400 students?

Also, this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. You're counting student fees at Ohio as institutional support. At Ohio St., your student fees wouldn't cover football or basketball tickets. You'd have to pay $160 for 5 football games and $120 for 10 basketball games. In your numbers, those would count as ticket revenue for Ohio St. while they are institutional support for Ohio. You would also have to include in institutional support for Big 10 schools the de facto Big 10 tax that, as cable or satellite TV subscribers, we all must pay.
Bobcat Love
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Posted: 11/2/2010 3:44 PM
Have you seen Annie Sprinkle's work, Jeff?

I would argue she was one of the more influential people in my life from the ages 12 thru 17.

She's a legend and a matriarch of her industry.

Tom Watson, Bill Clinton, Annie Sprinkle, and Jack Welch.

My ultimate dinner party.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 11/2/2010 4:07 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
Given the size of MAC schools, I would expect them to show up on this list. Where are the per student metrics? How does an Ohio University student's fees compare to those of BCS and non-BCS? What impact does the fee have on college selection?

Everything is relative. If Ohio spends $20M on Athletics across its students, how does that compare to the $11M Wofford spends on athletics across its 1,400 students?

Also, this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. You're counting student fees at Ohio as institutional support. At Ohio St., your student fees wouldn't cover football or basketball tickets. You'd have to pay $160 for 5 football games and $120 for 10 basketball games. In your numbers, those would count as ticket revenue for Ohio St. while they are institutional support for Ohio. You would also have to include in institutional support for Big 10 schools the de facto Big 10 tax that, as cable or satellite TV subscribers, we all must pay.


That's all fair.  I'm not sure that looking at BCS schools really helps our case, though.  Most of the public BCS programs are universities far larger than ours (Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, Georgia, etc.), so our per capita student spending is much higher given that we devote more institutional funds to these programs.

As for the fact that student fees don't cover the cost of tickets for Ohio State, that is true, but again I'm not sure that that helps our case.  In the Ohio State example, only students that want to consume athletics have to pay for them.  Here we tax all of our students equally for sports, even though only a small minority of them have any interest.  You are right about the Big 10 imposing a tax on all cable subscribers, though. 
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 11/2/2010 4:47 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Given the size of MAC schools, I would expect them to show up on this list. Where are the per student metrics? How does an Ohio University student's fees compare to those of BCS and non-BCS? What impact does the fee have on college selection?

Everything is relative. If Ohio spends $20M on Athletics across its students, how does that compare to the $11M Wofford spends on athletics across its 1,400 students?

Also, this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. You're counting student fees at Ohio as institutional support. At Ohio St., your student fees wouldn't cover football or basketball tickets. You'd have to pay $160 for 5 football games and $120 for 10 basketball games. In your numbers, those would count as ticket revenue for Ohio St. while they are institutional support for Ohio. You would also have to include in institutional support for Big 10 schools the de facto Big 10 tax that, as cable or satellite TV subscribers, we all must pay.


That's all fair.  I'm not sure that looking at BCS schools really helps our case, though.  Most of the public BCS programs are universities far larger than ours (Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, Georgia, etc.), so our per capita student spending is much higher given that we devote more institutional funds to these programs.

As for the fact that student fees don't cover the cost of tickets for Ohio State, that is true, but again I'm not sure that that helps our case.  In the Ohio State example, only students that want to consume athletics have to pay for them.  Here we tax all of our students equally for sports, even though only a small minority of them have any interest.  You are right about the Big 10 imposing a tax on all cable subscribers, though. 


I understand about the student fees but my point is why the numbers you cited are not apples to apples. They are labeling them in one case as ticket revenue. While for an Ohio student, even if that student is willing to partake of and pay for athletics, they are labeled as institutional support.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/2/2010 5:29 PM
All I know is that the student fee subsidy for athletics makes the price of an individual student season ticket a great deal more expensive than mine.  They pay more per quarter in fees than my basketball, volleyball and football season tickets combined.  I guess there are advantages to getting older.

Now if I can just get them to subsidize my Performing Arts Series tickets.
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Posted: 11/2/2010 6:02 PM
Al not to mention that our students pay more to attend an Ohio Football game than students at Ohio State.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:02 AM
Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Wow, if we are going to use a corporate business model why not have faculty in the class room 40 hours per week...hahaha!  Oh, I forgot, they are doing "student advising and counseling" and "administrative" work in addition to teaching and that is how they get to 40 hours...hahaha. 


I've been holding my peace in this debate but I can't let this one stand.  I would venture to guess that most faculty are working more than 40 hours a week even if it's not all in the classroom.  With numerous friends who are young PhD in their first job, I hear plenty about 6/7 day work weeks and days "off" spent in the office devoted to researching so that they can work towards tenure and maintain their position. Between teaching (and all it's responsibilities), the service component, committees, research, etc., I think you are barking up the wrong tree of criticism.  Sure, there's some young faculty who are disengaged and under-working and some long-standing tenured faculty who may be coasting, but the majority of faculty, I'm sure, put in a full work week and have nothing to be embarrassed about.  Those quotation marks are mis-used and your sarcasm misplaced. 
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:06 AM
intrpdtrvlr wrote:expand_more
Wow, if we are going to use a corporate business model why not have faculty in the class room 40 hours per week...hahaha!  Oh, I forgot, they are doing "student advising and counseling" and "administrative" work in addition to teaching and that is how they get to 40 hours...hahaha. 


I've been holding my peace in this debate but I can't let this one stand.  I would venture to guess that most faculty are working more than 40 hours a week even if it's not all in the classroom.  With numerous friends who are young PhD in their first job, I hear plenty about 6/7 day work weeks and days "off" spent in the office devoted to researching so that they can work towards tenure and maintain their position. Between teaching (and all it's responsibilities), the service component, committees, research, etc., I think you are barking up the wrong tree of criticism.  Sure, there's some young faculty who are disengaged and under-working and some long-standing tenured faculty who may be coasting, but the majority of faculty, I'm sure, put in a full work week and have nothing to be embarrassed about.  Those quotation marks are mis-used and your sarcasm misplaced. 


That's a good one...
intrpdtrvlr
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:10 AM
Kinggeorge4 (George Cheripko) wrote:expand_more
That's a good one...


George, the myopic anti-faculty sentiments by some on this board are no more accurate, measured, or reasonable than the positions of those who criticize funding for athletics.  Of that, if nothing else, I am sure.  
Last Edited: 11/3/2010 11:11:06 AM by intrpdtrvlr
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 11/3/2010 12:05 PM
Kinggeorge4 (George Cheripko) wrote:expand_more
I've been holding my peace in this debate but I can't let this one stand.  I would venture to guess that most faculty are working more than 40 hours a week even if it's not all in the classroom.  With numerous friends who are young PhD in their first job, I hear plenty about 6/7 day work weeks and days "off" spent in the office devoted to researching so that they can work towards tenure and maintain their position. Between teaching (and all it's responsibilities), the service component, committees, research, etc., I think you are barking up the wrong tree of criticism.  Sure, there's some young faculty who are disengaged and under-working and some long-standing tenured faculty who may be coasting, but the majority of faculty, I'm sure, put in a full work week and have nothing to be embarrassed about.  Those quotation marks are mis-used and your sarcasm misplaced. 


That's a good one...


Says the guy that has taught how many college courses exactly?  Or written how many peer-reviewed research papers?  Books?
Last Edited: 11/3/2010 12:25:12 PM by Flomo-genized
DublinCat
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Posted: 11/3/2010 12:58 PM
intrpdtrvlr wrote:expand_more
Wow, if we are going to use a corporate business model why not have faculty in the class room 40 hours per week...hahaha!  Oh, I forgot, they are doing "student advising and counseling" and "administrative" work in addition to teaching and that is how they get to 40 hours...hahaha. 


I've been holding my peace in this debate but I can't let this one stand.  I would venture to guess that most faculty are working more than 40 hours a week even if it's not all in the classroom.  With numerous friends who are young PhD in their first job, I hear plenty about 6/7 day work weeks and days "off" spent in the office devoted to researching so that they can work towards tenure and maintain their position. Between teaching (and all it's responsibilities), the service component, committees, research, etc., I think you are barking up the wrong tree of criticism.  Sure, there's some young faculty who are disengaged and under-working and some long-standing tenured faculty who may be coasting, but the majority of faculty, I'm sure, put in a full work week and have nothing to be embarrassed about.  Those quotation marks are mis-used and your sarcasm misplaced. 



There are clearly some great hard working professors and educators at Ohio University.  The difference in athletics is you actually have to accomplish something to keep your job.  Either as a player or as a marquee program coach. There is not much room for coasting.


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Posted: 11/3/2010 1:13 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
I've been holding my peace in this debate but I can't let this one stand.  I would venture to guess that most faculty are working more than 40 hours a week even if it's not all in the classroom.  With numerous friends who are young PhD in their first job, I hear plenty about 6/7 day work weeks and days "off" spent in the office devoted to researching so that they can work towards tenure and maintain their position. Between teaching (and all it's responsibilities), the service component, committees, research, etc., I think you are barking up the wrong tree of criticism.  Sure, there's some young faculty who are disengaged and under-working and some long-standing tenured faculty who may be coasting, but the majority of faculty, I'm sure, put in a full work week and have nothing to be embarrassed about.  Those quotation marks are mis-used and your sarcasm misplaced. 


That's a good one...


Says the guy that has taught how many college courses exactly?  Or written how many peer-reviewed research papers?  Books?

Nice one!!!!!!
Stand_Up_And_Cheer
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Posted: 11/3/2010 1:59 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
In the Ohio State example, only students that want to consume athletics have to pay for them.  Here we tax all of our students equally for sports, even though only a small minority of them have any interest.


Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
All I know is that the student fee subsidy for athletics makes the price of an individual student season ticket a great deal more expensive than mine.  They pay more per quarter in fees than my basketball, volleyball and football season tickets combined.


John C. Wanamaker wrote:expand_more
not to mention that our students pay more to attend an Ohio Football game than students at Ohio State


Setting aside the actual Athletics budget and the relative impact of cost-cutting there versus elsewhere for the moment...

My OU-attending daughters can waive their quarterly legal fee if they don't want to use the services, but can't do the same for their (expensive) athletics tickets.  With the cost of education what it is, isn't there something wrong with that arrangement?
BobcatJH
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Posted: 11/3/2010 3:17 PM
"The difference in athletics is you actually have to accomplish something to keep your job.  Either as a player or as a marquee program coach. There is not much room for coasting."

Let's not pull at that thread.

Nor should anyone who has no idea about what they're talking about (i.e., quite a few of you) spend one second speculating about how little time professors put into their jobs. You're really looking foolish when you do that. Really, really foolish.
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 11/3/2010 3:22 PM
BobcatJH wrote:expand_more
"The difference in athletics is you actually have to accomplish something to keep your job.  Either as a player or as a marquee program coach. There is not much room for coasting."

Let's not pull at that thread.

Nor should anyone who has no idea about what they're talking about (i.e., quite a few of you) spend one second speculating about how little time professors put into their jobs. You're really looking foolish when you do that. Really, really foolish.


But this is what happens when threads start getting pulled. You go after someone, you can't be surprised when they come after you.
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Posted: 11/3/2010 4:28 PM
BobcatJH wrote:expand_more
"The difference in athletics is you actually have to accomplish something to keep your job.  Either as a player or as a marquee program coach. There is not much room for coasting."

Let's not pull at that thread.

Nor should anyone who has no idea about what they're talking about (i.e., quite a few of you) spend one second speculating about how little time professors put into their jobs. You're really looking foolish when you do that. Really, really foolish.


You left of the top sentence- 
There are clearly some great hard working professors and educators at Ohio University. 



Flomo-genized
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Posted: 11/3/2010 5:00 PM
DublinCat wrote:expand_more
There are clearly some great hard working professors and educators at Ohio University.  The difference in athletics is you actually have to accomplish something to keep your job.  Either as a player or as a marquee program coach. There is not much room for coasting.


Joe Carbone might beg to differ...
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Posted: 11/3/2010 5:10 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
There are clearly some great hard working professors and educators at Ohio University.  The difference in athletics is you actually have to accomplish something to keep your job.  Either as a player or as a marquee program coach. There is not much room for coasting.


Joe Carbone might beg to differ...


As would Bob Cooley....
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Posted: 11/3/2010 5:50 PM
Bobcat Love wrote:expand_more
There are clearly some great hard working professors and educators at Ohio University.  The difference in athletics is you actually have to accomplish something to keep your job.  Either as a player or as a marquee program coach. There is not much room for coasting.


Joe Carbone might beg to differ...


As would Bob Cooley....
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