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Topic: Sports Administration siding with Faculty Senate on ICA spending!
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Athens
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Posted: 11/1/2010 4:19 PM
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Vedder wrote:expand_more
The OU Department of Intercollegiate Athletics spent around $1.5 million on team travel expenses last year, according to USA Today.

Vedder said that teams shouldn't be aligned in conferences where they have to travel 1,000 miles.

"I'm not talking just about football," said Vedder. "Other sports have to make those long trips to division opponents, and that is where we are losing a lot of extra money."



I love it. The longest divisional trip to Buffalo is 391 miles. If you count Temple in the football division a trip to Philly is 453 miles. Mobile, AL is 862 miles. Denton, TX is 1,097 miles. Does Richard Vedder think we play in the Sun Belt Conference? The average travel costs in the MAC are among the lowest in D1. Many schools out there would envy what Ohio has going in the Mid-American conference.

Last Edited: 11/1/2010 4:23:43 PM by Athens
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 11/1/2010 4:20 PM
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http://www.finearts.ohio.edu/art/galleries/current.htm

Prostitute/porn star turned sexologist/performance artist Annie Sprinkle is being brought in to Ohio University.  Her "art" and "show" is being sponsored by the Kennedy Lecture Series, Arts for Ohio, Ohio University, the Kennedy Museum of Art, and the School of Fine Arts.

It's really ironic how the same people who consider this stuff as a wise investment of university funds dismiss athletics as a waste of money. 

While "Sexecology" may be worth at least a look as a form of art, it's a questionable use of taxpayer funds in a time of fiscal austerity.  (If this event is being sponsored entirely by private and/or foundation funds, someone please enlighten me on this.) 

Also, it's worth checking out the doctoral research being conducted in schools like Communications.  Some of the doctoral research is on topics so obscure and eccentric that it's hard to find any "public value" in it...especially in a time of fiscal austerity. 
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 11/1/2010 4:21 PM
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Wes wrote:expand_more
The OU Department of Intercollegiate Athletics spent around $1.5 million on team travel expenses last year, according to USA Today.

Vedder said that teams shouldn't be aligned in conferences where they have to travel 1,000 miles.

"I'm not talking just about football," said Vedder. "Other sports have to make those long trips to division opponents, and that is where we are losing a lot of extra money."



I love it. The longest divisional trip to Buffalo is 391 miles. If you count Temple in the football division a trip to Philly is 453 miles. Mobile, AL is 862 miles. Denton, TX is 1,097 miles. Does Richard Vedder think we play in the Sun Belt Conference? The average travel cost in the MAC are the lowest in D1. Many schools out that would what Ohio has going in the Mid-American conference.



He probably wants us to play Youngstown State and Eastern Kentucky. 
Athens
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Posted: 11/1/2010 4:27 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
The OU Department of Intercollegiate Athletics spent around $1.5 million on team travel expenses last year, according to USA Today.

Vedder said that teams shouldn't be aligned in conferences where they have to travel 1,000 miles.

"I'm not talking just about football," said Vedder. "Other sports have to make those long trips to division opponents, and that is where we are losing a lot of extra money."



I love it. The longest divisional trip to Buffalo is 391 miles. If you count Temple in the football division a trip to Philly is 453 miles. Mobile, AL is 862 miles. Denton, TX is 1,097 miles. Does Richard Vedder think we play in the Sun Belt Conference? The average travel cost in the MAC are the lowest in D1. Many schools out that would what Ohio has going in the Mid-American conference.



He probably wants us to play Youngstown State and Eastern Kentucky. 


Or go back to the Ohio Athletic Conference and play old rivals like Ohio Wesleyan.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 11/1/2010 4:32 PM
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Wes wrote:expand_more
The OU Department of Intercollegiate Athletics spent around $1.5 million on team travel expenses last year, according to USA Today.

Vedder said that teams shouldn't be aligned in conferences where they have to travel 1,000 miles.

"I'm not talking just about football," said Vedder. "Other sports have to make those long trips to division opponents, and that is where we are losing a lot of extra money."



I love it. The longest divisional trip to Buffalo is 391 miles. If you count Temple in the football division a trip to Philly is 453 miles. Mobile, AL is 862 miles. Denton, TX is 1,097 miles. Does Richard Vedder think we play in the Sun Belt Conference? The average travel costs in the MAC are among the lowest in D1. Many schools out there would envy what Ohio has going in the Mid-American conference.



I don't believe Vedder was suggesting that Ohio has to travel 1,000 miles in conference, but rather was discussing scheduling trends more generally nationwide (reporters tend to lose nuances like that when incorporating quotations into their articles).  Regardless, you are measuring our longest divisional trip, not the longest overall for the entire conference.  By that measure, our trip to DeKalb is our longest at nearly 500 miles, while Temple's football roadtrip to NIU comes in at nearly 850 miles. 

This does raise a separate, interesting issue, though.  At the time we added NIU, Buffalo, and even Temple, the MAC hoped that these footholds in the Chicago, Buffalo, and Philadelphia media markets would boost the conference's profile and television presence.  In hindsight, it seems that adding these schools has had little appreciable benefit in either measure (although I grant that we might get even fewer scraps from ESPN without one or more of those schools).  As a result, given the travel costs that must be incurred by secondary sports to reach Dekalb and Buffalo, I wonder whether the benefits of including NIU and Buffalo in the MAC outweigh the costs.  It's an issue that I don't believe has been discussed, but one that might yield some budgetary relief to some MAC programs.

Overall, though, I agree that travel distances are not among the MAC's biggest problems.
Last Edited: 11/1/2010 5:04:23 PM by Flomo-genized
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Posted: 11/1/2010 4:40 PM
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I would love to have Vedder and Ridpath investigate the the financial woes of all universities and colleges compaing academia and athletics.  All that I ask, that they contribute all of their remaiining revenue collected from those rewarding grants be contributed back to the athletic department for athletic educational grants instead of their pockets.  From my experiences they will be making a very sizable research salary for this type of investigatioin that could lead the way for endowed athletic-academic scholarships. 

It is interesting that this battle between the academia and athletics has being an ongoing topic for many years in every institution that I have been associated professionally.  Yet athletics has survived. 

As a retired faculty member I love athletics. Because the present administration decided to bring a higher level of head coaching to this university I finally get to see a higher level of talent that provides a more enjoyable performance and experiences than the past 25 years of poor coaching performances and experiences. 

This university has many areas of concerns, financially. One could debate if the univeristy has an overload of administrative staff, as noted in a most regrettable experience by one who was relieved of his responsibilities making $156,000.  How many more of those administrators are still being retained.  We must remember this university pays a full professor very well. We could debate how many full professors on this campus, who are tenured and do not carry a full load or do not conduct  active research that would benefit this university still receive their high level salary until retirement  We could debate the priviledge to double dip by retiring professors and collect a third or more of their highest annual salary for many years up to the age of 70 or what the department allows above the age of 70.  I enjoyed that priviledge, but don't agree with that policy as that money could be used to attract younger faculty with outstanding academic criteria.

We could debate  how many of those professors and adminstrators are encouraging a reduction in athletic expenditures. As one can see there are many areas in this university that should be evaluated for financial and university  performance productivity.  Let us all call for institutional solutions and not debate who receives or does not receive their fair share, but what provides over all higher national productivity with a balanced financial picture for the university.  

We could debate the positive producitivity for Ohio University with the upgrade of institutional research activity that has created future revenue for this university. I do encourage more of this activity in order to keep this university stable and keep everyone happy and allow athletics to maintain their Division 1 status.

This university needs national highlights in both academics and athletics.  GO BOBCATS

Flomo-genized
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Posted: 11/1/2010 4:46 PM
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Panda wrote:expand_more
I would love to have Vedder and Ridpath investigate the the financial woes of all universities and colleges compaing academia and athletics. 


That's effectively what Vedder's doing through his work with the Center for College Affordability and Productivity:

http://www.centerforcollegeaffordability.org/

His quotes in the A-News are focused on athletics, due to the nature of the story, but he and that center are proposing much more sweeping changes to higher ed.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 4:59 PM
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College tuition has far exceeded other inflationary trends. Eventually you reach a tipping point. Here is what one recent Boston College grad thinks of his degree-

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?article...
Last Edited: 11/1/2010 5:00:20 PM by DublinCat
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 11/1/2010 4:59 PM
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They would question a lot of the building of facilities on college campuses.  They would adhere to a more private-sector model to evaluate spending by universities.

I would say they would applaud community colleges and rip public universities above that level.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 5:46 PM
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Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
 
Rather, I would be interested in seeing what percentage of students overall attend sporting events, and with what frequency, when deciding whether to continue to subsidize athletics disproportionately with student fees. 

In this budget climate, everything should be up for debate.  The problem is that the administration has pretty much taken athletics off the table, without any justification. 


There was an article on the post detailing the number of students which attended football and basketball games last season. The average for football was 4,000 a game and the average for basketball was 500 a game. At least a quarter of students are going to the games and probably closer to a third if you count every unique student ID that walks through Peden Stadium and the Convo. The cost for an in-state undergraduate to attend OU with room and board is 20,000 dollars per year and the cost for out-of-state students is 30,000 per year. I'm going to figure then the average undergraduate is paying 22,000 dollars. Out of that amount roughly 1,600 a year comes the general fee (about 7% of total student expenses).

Ohio's budget for athletics is about 20 million dollars. Out of the 20 million dollar budget the general fee subsidizes 13 million, while revenues through various sources are in the neighborhood of 7 million and the result directly or indirectly of having a football program. Scholarships are about 50% of the total cost out of the 20 million but what does a scholarship cost the university? An athletic scholarship doesn't cost anything to a university accept that it takes away from the potential funds of a full paying student attending the school. Its funny money to the bottom line. The school could probably cut the general fee by 1,000 dollars a year in the needs based DIII model saving students 5% against the current full attendance cost. Would it make a difference though to the students? With tuition rising 5% every year they'll hardly notice the savings. And that 5% cost cut would be a 1 time cut never to be replaced again. Moving to a lower subdivsion or eliminating athletics doesn't look to be worth it when it eliminates revenue and reduces tangential publicity and prestige attached to FBS football. Going the other way and trippling the general fee to support a 40 million dollar BCS level budget doesn't make any sense either. Put Ohio in the Big East and the result would likely be the same, Pizza Bowl and NCAA second round while spending twice the money.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 6:09 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
They would question a lot of the building of facilities on college campuses.  They would adhere to a more private-sector model to evaluate spending by universities.


Unfortunately I think the funding models now put in place through the University of Ohio are too focused on rewarding schools for enrollment growth. The state is giving schools bonuses for exceeding enrollment targets. That is to the advantage of an open enrollment school like Akron located in a large urban area. The state should stick to supporting research and let public schools set their tuition to market rates. Case Western receives money from the state for medical research while operating as an entirely private school. To make tuition affordable to underprivileged families reduce it by a prorated amount for those families making under 75,000 with scholarship money. That is the way quality private schools operate. If the number 1 outcome of the state educational system is to buoy the state economy it should be research initiatives first and graduating students second.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 6:27 PM
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Miami and Ohio in the Eastern Division gain more diversity benefits from the athletic budget than it would gain in diversity if it had significantly reduced sport venues and directed money elsewhere.  How many people of color would be at Ohio University if there was D-III Football and Basketball.  The $500 that students pay gives them a chance to learn from others that are less like themselves and if we are to believe that diversity is good than it's money well spent.  Lots of money is already spent in financial aid to increase diversity and much more would have to be spent if athletics don't remain as they stand.


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Posted: 11/1/2010 6:56 PM
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MonroeClassmate wrote:expand_more
 How many people of color would be at Ohio University if there was D-III Football and Basketball.  




Wow!  Did I just read that?  You're not saying what I think you're saying, are you?  Please explain this sentence if you would.  
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Posted: 11/1/2010 6:59 PM
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It's not fair the Athletics Department is told that it must sponsor athletic teams that lose money if there is no institutional support that helps cover the cost of those teams.  What I am referring to is Title IX.  It's affirmative action in college athletics.  If not for Title IX I am sure the athletics department would be much better off financially.   If a department is told it can only spend what it takes in, then it should not be forced to field teams in areas that do not contribute revenue that in turn justifies its existence.  For the record I have a daughter that is involved in volleyball, basketball, softball and track but I am also a free market guy.  What I can't stand are lifetime state employees (faculty) trying to force a university department to operate like it's in the private sector when it is not and while at the same time their departments are completely reliant on the almighty tax dollar and student fees. 

 

I want to hear the faculty demand that Title IX (along with Obama-care) be repealed immediately!  Of course I do not personally want that to happen but I am also not the one screaming about how Ohio University funds its athletics department.   However, if the ever growing and intrusive government demands participation quotas, then the use of student fees and tax $ IS appropriate. 

 

Don't even get me started on the ROI comment.  There are a lot of useless majors whose graduates graduate to careers that rely completely on support from the federal government and contribute very little if anything to society at large and I seriously doubt they ever become major donors back to the university.   I won't name names but their not hard to figure out. 

 

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Posted: 11/1/2010 7:00 PM
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Wes wrote:expand_more
Moving to a lower subdivsion or eliminating athletics doesn't look to be worth it when it eliminates revenue and reduces tangential publicity and prestige attached to FBS football. 


But you are begging the question here, Wes.  How much is "publicity and prestige attached to FBS football" worth at our level?  If, hypothetically, you made football a non-scholarship sport, and cut the accompanying 85 scholarships in women's sports as well, it isn't clear to me that the loss in football visibility, fundraising, and other benefits related thereto, would outweigh the savings.  They might, they might not.  Right now we don't know. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not proposing that we do that, but in total I question how much the visibility of being a member of the MAC is really worth from a football perspective.  Schools like Gonzaga, Butler, Xavier, George Mason, and Dayton (admittedly extreme examples) have gained much more visibility and prestige from their men's basketball programs than we have from football.  For that matter, we have gained much more visibility and prestige from our basketball program than our football program, both recently and historically.

At the end of the day, the point is that anything we debate here about the numbers is conjecture, because the university has never documented the benefits of our football program, despite the fact that there are ways (albeit imperfect ones) to do so.  Until then, any suggestion that the benefits outweigh the costs are complete guesswork on your part.   
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Posted: 11/1/2010 7:02 PM
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Gallia Cat wrote:expand_more

It's not fair the Athletics Department is told that it must sponsor athletic teams that lose money if there is no institutional support that helps cover the cost of those teams.  



None of our athletics teams are self-supporting financially.  None.  So by that measure, football would probably be the first to go.

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Posted: 11/1/2010 7:15 PM
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Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
This does raise a separate, interesting issue, though.  At the time we added NIU, Buffalo, and even Temple, the MAC hoped that these footholds in the Chicago, Buffalo, and Philadelphia media markets would boost the conference's profile and television presence.  In hindsight, it seems that adding these schools has had little appreciable benefit in either measure. 


Absolutely true - One could argue though that it can/should help recruiting.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 7:25 PM
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Gallia Cat wrote:expand_more

 

Don't even get me started on the ROI comment.  There are a lot of useless majors whose graduates graduate to careers that rely completely on support from the federal government and contribute very little if anything to society at large and I seriously doubt they ever become major donors back to the university.   I won't name names but their not hard to figure out. 

 



And there a lot of people with majors you approve of that don't strike it rich either.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 7:47 PM
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Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more

It's not fair the Athletics Department is told that it must sponsor athletic teams that lose money if there is no institutional support that helps cover the cost of those teams.  



None of our athletics teams are self-supporting financially.  None.  So by that measure, football would probably be the first to go.



Football is the key to the entire athletic department. There is 1 million dollars related directedly to ticket sales, concessions, parking ect. Then school makes approximately another 1 million dollars from BCS road games. Then marketing rights and partnerships are anywhere in the range of 1-2 million. Our membership in the MAC and the low cost D1 travel it provides are worth another 2 million dollars which would be immeadiately at jeporady if the school dropped football. Another million dollars in direct athletic/academic donations per year would be lost on top of that. If you add that all up that is 5-6 million dollars that are basically gone when football is. The problem is that football is not making enough money at Ohio University to support a BCS level football budget or support the majority of the athletic department like it does at the largest football schools. Indirectly is the exposure provided by ESPN, print media, commercials that run at half time. There has been efforts to put a dollar value on add space though I'm personally skeptical about that value for the university at large. It really becomes a larger tangential factor when a program is in the top 25. I agree that tangibles from exposure can be just as easily picked up by basketball as football and that it would be easier for the university to support an expensive basketball staff than a football staff. The basketball program just hasn't been good enough to date to warrant more financial investment. Nobody has been able to walk into Ohio University and make it a regular NCAA tournament type team to justify a high salary long term coach. Hunter and O'shea failed to capitalize on their NCAA bids and with all the defections this year Groce could be heading down the same path. Its too early to tell yet on Groce but he has a long way to go before he can put his basketball program on the map as a legit top 25 program.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 8:31 PM
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These ivory tower types LOVE to hear themselves talk....

Haven't done a damn thing in the real world, yet think they have some sort of birthright to be involved in the decision making process that affects alums like me who do work in the real world.

Ridpath.....Assistant Wrestling Coach??? That's who we are letting guide the University? A glorified Assistant Wrestling Coach who has written a few papers? That speaks volumes to me.

Vedder...Doesn't appear to me that he's held a job in the private sector. Again, wrote a few papers, advised a few people...but has no credentials to espouse how things work in the real world.

Guys, get out for a cup of coffee in a world where nothing is given to you and everything is earned. I fight a daily grind to earn, keep, and enhance my business interests.  I'm not saying what I do is earth shattering, but with P&L responsibility and several employees under my watch...I'm dealing in a reality that is completely unfamiliar to faculty snobs sitting in some Lindley Hall office. 

As someone that financially supports the Athletic Department and actually writes checks...my vote is for these two characters to step out of any kind of decision making capacity. Putting Ohio out of the big time athletic game is a one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard. A sure way to hit the self destruct button on any kind of advancement of the University. In fact, as I preach time and time again, I would prefer we go the other direction and POUR MORE money into athletics. Certainly the Big 10 institutions would argue that Athletics has been an asset to their advancement, not a detriment as Bert and Ernie would have you believe.

Amazing how book smart people can be so un-worldly.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 8:32 PM
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I agree with your comment on not everyone with degrees that I see as productive striking it rich.  Although I would like to see which programs graduates contribute the most back to the university.  The truth is, I love Ohio University just the way it is.  I love the beauty of the campus, the diversity of the majors and the individuals.  That really contributes to the overall strength and appeal of Ohio University.  I just can't stand singling out one department as the epicenter for all the financial woes that currently exist at the university.  Everything that is associated with a state university does rely on student fees and tax payer dollars.   Very few athletics departments across the country are considered cash cows but still contribute to university life.  For the record university life does extend beyond graduation to alumni who remain connected to their alma mater via the athletics programs.

As for football not being able to make it on its own, I respectfully disagree.  If you have a streamlined/lean department with support staff for only those sports (football and men's basketball) that are revenue producing I feel you could make it financially work.  Would sponsorships (which I understand hit a record number this year) be negatively impacted by having only football and men's basketball?  Would ticket revenue go down?  The answer to both of those questions would be no.    How easy would it be  to maintain two facilities compared to the number now being serviced?  I don't know how much but I am sure it would be a lot easier and less expensive.  Once again I want to stress I am in no way calling for the elimination of non-revenue producing sports.  I don't have a problem with using student fees and tax dollars to supplement the revenue.  Now I can tell you if Title IX did not exist and tax dollars were being used I would have a huge problem with it.   I just believe if there are participation quotas in place and mandated, the use of student fees and tax dollars is appropriate. 

In reference to a post above regarding the impact on minority student recruitment if the axe falls on athletics.  It's a valid question.  Ohio University is not exactly located in an area of the state that is as racially diverse as the urban areas.  I think one of the real contributions that athletics does make is in this area.  Often friends of that recruit will give Ohio University consideration because they were exposed to the people and the campus when they otherwise may not.  I  witnessed this first hand on several occasions while at OU.

. 

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Posted: 11/1/2010 9:46 PM
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Gallia Cat wrote:expand_more

In a reference to a post above regarding the impact on minority student recruitment if the axe falls on athletics.  It's a valid question.  Ohio University is not exactly located in an area of the state that is as racially diverse as the urban areas.  I think one of the real contributions that athletics does make is in this area.  Often friends of that recruit will give Ohio University consideration because they were exposed to the people and the campus when they otherwise may not.  I  witnessed this first hand on several occasions while at OU.



While what you say about athletics being beneficial to minority recruitment is probably valid Alan is correct that comments in this direction are unfounded and in poor taste. Its a poor generalization that need based players wouldn't be minority. The other week I ran into a guy at a computer store who happened to be wearing Dartmouth garb who was African American and played back 70's on their last top 25 team I asked if he was on scholarship and he said no, they didn't give out athletic scholarships back then. I have family who attended Dartmouth and he asked me what they thought about it. I think when it comes to D1 athletics is that basically every public school that isn't a branch campus ultimately strives to be at that level because its an entire level of talent and visibility over DII or DIII in every sport. There are a lot of small private schools that just aren't capable of raising the necessary funds for DI level facilities. Ohio has solid D1 facilities in place and an existing membership in a solid D1 conference.
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Posted: 11/1/2010 10:02 PM
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FWIW, Vedder is the best professor I've ever had.

That said, I completely disagree with him on athletic funding.  I don't think he comes close to properly accounting for the benefits athletics has in marketing OHIO University to potential students (this is the big one that McDavis sees and the faculty seem to skim over).  In addition to that, I don't think he accounts for the affect athletics has on the student experience on campus, although in his defense he's admitted proper studies need to be done on how much students value ICA as a part of campus life...  Also in his defense, his critique's on higher education have been much broader then just athletics, and I actually agree with a lot of his points.  He's looking for wide-scale reform, and he's certainly well-respected enough nationally that he doesn't need to critique athletics for people to pay attention to what he is saying.

Now when it comes to the journalism professors (cough Bernhard Debatin cough), or faculty senate chairs (Joe McLaughlin, an English professor who surely knows finance or marketing) who couldn't show more bias to their own causes, I've about lost my cool.  I almost forgot a shout-out to Classics professor Steve Hays...  Seriously, Classics.

"When you say things like, 'We're in the fourth quartile for expenditures,' duh, of course we are," Hays said. "(But) to spend one out of every $25 on Intercollegiate Athletics so people can sit there and watch things does not compute."

Yes sir, Steve Hays wins The Optimist's most hated award.  I'm much more upset my money goes to paying him to read Socrates then paying $25 dollars to watch DJ Cooper throw a behind the back pass to a streaking DeVaughn Washington in the NCAA tournament.  DUH.  P.S.  The O Zone doesn't sit at games, football or basketball, we stand.  I'd invite Classics professor Steve Hays to come stand with us, but I doubt he could even find the Convocation Center.

My issue with the Big 3 in the various writing departments (as compared to Vedder) is obviously the lack of any expertise in anything related to money.  DUH.  Additionally, there motives are clearly as much about faculty pay as they are about the student experience.  That, or the only student's experience they care about are the kids reading Plato at Alden on a Friday night.  They couldn't be more out of touch with the typical OU student...  And they want paid.  You can't blame them for that, but I'll raise hell before football drops to D-III (Debatin's suggestion).......
Voice of Reason
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Voice of Reason
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Posted: 11/1/2010 10:24 PM
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Bobcat Love Calling the Kettle Black
"These ivory tower types LOVE to hear themselves talk....

Haven't done a damn thing in the real world, yet think they have some sort of birthright to be involved in the decision making process that affects alums like me who do work in the real world."

Sounds a lot like yourself...Never done a second of work as an athletic administrator and you believe you have some sort of birthright to be involved in the decision making process!  Must be your Wikipedia degree in college athletics that makes you different...
Tim Burke
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Tim Burke
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Posted: 11/1/2010 10:24 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
It's really ironic how the same people who consider this stuff as a wise investment of university funds dismiss athletics as a waste of money. 

While "Sexecology" may be worth at least a look as a form of art, it's a questionable use of taxpayer funds in a time of fiscal austerity.  (If this event is being sponsored entirely by private and/or foundation funds, someone please enlighten me on this.)  


Right, because guests who lecture safe and healthy sexual practices aren't beneficial to the college community at all.

Quote:expand_more
Also, it's worth checking out the doctoral research being conducted in schools like Communications.  Some of the doctoral research is on topics so obscure and eccentric that it's hard to find any "public value" in it...especially in a time of fiscal austerity. 


oh eat me. Give me an example. 
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