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anorris
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Posted: 12/7/2010 12:23 AM
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Bobcatbob
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Posted: 12/7/2010 8:20 AM
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"Scary" as this seems, it also seems extremely unlikely that such an omission affecting actual BCS berths would ever go undetected.  Too many other people singing along, as it were.

Heard an interesting take from an anonymous Entertainment and Sports Programming Network anchor the other day:

"TCU should be glad there is a BCS because there is no way they would ever get a Rose Bowl berth without it."

I thought it an interesting glass half full analysis.
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 12/7/2010 10:32 AM
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Very true, take the traditional Bowl Tie-ins in the days of the AP/UPI National Championships, they would be playing in the Independence Bowl, the Weed Eater Bowl the Sun Bowl against a 7-8 win school.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 12/7/2010 11:31 AM
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Just because the present system is slightly less unfair than the prior system doesn't make it fair.  Just like many here wouldn't be pursuaded not to upgrade to an HDTV simply because your current color model is better than the old B&W sets...
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 12/7/2010 11:44 AM
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Seriously, what is fair?  What is fair to one person is probably not fair to another.  Does fair even exist in life?  Fair can be defined as free from favoritism or self-interest or bias or deception, but once again what is fair to one person is not necessairly fair to another person.

I guess what I am saying is fair is one of the most often used, yet most misunderstood words in the English language.
Last Edited: 12/7/2010 11:45:45 AM by John C. Wanamaker
DelBobcat
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Posted: 12/7/2010 11:55 AM
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John C. Wanamaker wrote:expand_more
Seriously, what is fair?  What is fair to one person is probably not fair to another.  Does fair even exist in life?  Fair can be defined as free from favoritism or self-interest or bias or deception, but once again what is fair to one person is not necessairly fair to another person.

I guess what I am saying is fair is one of the most often used, yet most misunderstood words in the English language.


I think that it is pretty obvious in this instance that "fair" means let the teams play each other so we can decide it on the field instead of in a computer.

Now I will grant you that there will still be some issues of fairness in selecting which teams make it to the playoffs, but in the progression of fairness ANY playoff where every FBS team has a chance to make it would be more fair than the current system.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 12/7/2010 12:01 PM
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DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
Seriously, what is fair?  What is fair to one person is probably not fair to another.  Does fair even exist in life?  Fair can be defined as free from favoritism or self-interest or bias or deception, but once again what is fair to one person is not necessairly fair to another person.

I guess what I am saying is fair is one of the most often used, yet most misunderstood words in the English language.


I think that it is pretty obvious in this instance that "fair" means let the teams play each other so we can decide it on the field instead of in a computer.

Now I will grant you that there will still be some issues of fairness in selecting which teams make it to the playoffs, but in the progression of fairness ANY playoff where every FBS team has a chance to make it would be more fair than the current system.


Bingo.  While we can debate what would be most fair, it should be abundantly clear that the present system is unfair, given that TCU has zero chance of winning a national championship despite not having been defeated once this season.  While we can speculate as to whether TCU would beat Oregon or Auburn, ultimately we don't know for sure.  It is exceedingly difficult to argue that that is a fair outcome.
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 12/7/2010 12:11 PM
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Another question, has there ever really been a National Champion in the sport of DI football? 
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 12/7/2010 12:17 PM
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Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Seriously, what is fair?  What is fair to one person is probably not fair to another.  Does fair even exist in life?  Fair can be defined as free from favoritism or self-interest or bias or deception, but once again what is fair to one person is not necessairly fair to another person.

I guess what I am saying is fair is one of the most often used, yet most misunderstood words in the English language.


I think that it is pretty obvious in this instance that "fair" means let the teams play each other so we can decide it on the field instead of in a computer.

Now I will grant you that there will still be some issues of fairness in selecting which teams make it to the playoffs, but in the progression of fairness ANY playoff where every FBS team has a chance to make it would be more fair than the current system.


Bingo.  While we can debate what would be most fair, it should be abundantly clear that the present system is unfair, given that TCU has zero chance of winning a national championship despite not having been defeated once this season.  While we can speculate as to whether TCU would beat Oregon or Auburn, ultimately we don't know for sure.  It is exceedingly difficult to argue that that is a fair outcome.


It could also be argued that if TCU made the game it is not fair that a one loss Stanford who lost to an Undefeated team and had a S.O.S. of 10 compared to TCU's 82. 

What will also not be fair is when a system does come down, is the slot that TCU/Boise/Utah (insert anyone of a hundred teams here) will get and the mountain they will have to climb to get to the title game.

In the top 10 of the Sagarin ratings only three teams have S.O.S. higher than 20, and that is Missouri at 26, Boise at 70 and TCU at 82.....In this instance Gordon Gee has a point.
KC Bobcat
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Posted: 12/7/2010 12:35 PM
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John C. Wanamaker wrote:expand_more
Another question, has there ever really been a National Champion in the sport of DI football? 


I flat out say NO as far as D1A or the FBS as they call it now goes.  How can you have a champion without a championship?  Two teams who were "elected" to play in a game by computers and sportswriters does not constitute a champioinship in my book.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 12/7/2010 12:59 PM
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John C. Wanamaker wrote:expand_more
It could also be argued that if TCU made the game it is not fair that a one loss Stanford who lost to an Undefeated team and had a S.O.S. of 10 compared to TCU's 82. 

What will also not be fair is when a system does come down, is the slot that TCU/Boise/Utah (insert anyone of a hundred teams here) will get and the mountain they will have to climb to get to the title game.

In the top 10 of the Sagarin ratings only three teams have S.O.S. higher than 20, and that is Missouri at 26, Boise at 70 and TCU at 82.....In this instance Gordon Gee has a point.


Boise and TCU's strength of schedule isn't their fault.  They would jump at an offer to join the Big 10, SEC, Big 12, or Pac-10 in a heartbeat.  Rather, the BCS schools have no desire to let them join their club, and then hold their lack of membership against them when it comes to crowning a national champion.  That simply is not fair.

I fail to understand why you seem so opposed to a playoff tournament in college football, when that is the system used to crown a champion in every other team sport on the planet. 
Last Edited: 12/7/2010 1:00:53 PM by Flomo-genized
cc-cat
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Posted: 12/7/2010 1:12 PM
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John C. Wanamaker wrote:expand_more
In the top 10 of the Sagarin ratings only three teams have S.O.S. higher than 20, and that is Missouri at 26, Boise at 70 and TCU at 82.....In this instance Gordon Gee has a point.


Except Gee shouldn't be making the point as their S.O.S. is 68.
Ozcat
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Posted: 12/7/2010 2:06 PM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
Except Gee shouldn't be making the point as their S.O.S. is 68.


Bobcat fans can rejoice though.  Had OUr boys taken care of business against Toledo and Kent State, we would have been doing OSU a favor, so thank heavens that didn't happen.

Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Boise and TCU's strength of schedule isn't their fault.


After VTech lost to James Madison, half this message board was screaming that it is not Boise's fault that VTech lost.  But when Miami (Fl) and Iowa go down in flames, it is suddenly convenient to point out the weakness is the Buckeyes schedule.

Bottom line:  A playoff needs to happen, and had Oregon or Auburn slipped up, TCU making the championship game would have been to spark to ignite the fire.

Which is why I believe the NCAA is turning its' head to this whole Cam Newton thing, but that's a whole different rant...
OUbobcat9092
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Posted: 12/7/2010 3:12 PM
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Ozcat wrote:expand_more
  But when Miami (Fl), Iowa, Penn State and Michigan go down in flames, and Purdue, Indiana, Minnesota and Illinois suck it is suddenly convenient to point out the weakness is the Buckeyes schedule.


Fixed that for you...
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 12/7/2010 3:34 PM
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KC Bobcat wrote:expand_more
Another question, has there ever really been a National Champion in the sport of DI football? 


I flat out say NO as far as D1A or the FBS as they call it now goes.  How can you have a champion without a championship?  Two teams who were "elected" to play in a game by computers and sportswriters does not constitute a champioinship in my book.


I concur, there never has been one, in fact if you look at the record books some years there are 3 or 4 schools that lay claim to a National Title....More power to them
Mr. Mo Jo Risin
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Posted: 12/8/2010 9:38 PM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
In the top 10 of the Sagarin ratings only three teams have S.O.S. higher than 20, and that is Missouri at 26, Boise at 70 and TCU at 82.....In this instance Gordon Gee has a point.


Except Gee shouldn't be making the point as their S.O.S. is 68.


Yes. According to a SOS calculator that would chalk up 7-5 Iowa and 7-5 San Jose State as equal in difficulty.
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 12/9/2010 7:32 AM
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Mr. Mo Jo Risin wrote:expand_more
In the top 10 of the Sagarin ratings only three teams have S.O.S. higher than 20, and that is Missouri at 26, Boise at 70 and TCU at 82.....In this instance Gordon Gee has a point.


Except Gee shouldn't be making the point as their S.O.S. is 68.


Yes. According to a SOS calculator that would chalk up 7-5 Iowa and 7-5 San Jose State as equal in difficulty.


And would you pay to see an Iowa v. San Jose State matchup as a football fan?  Vegas line on that game would be 20+
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 12/9/2010 10:38 AM
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Mr. Mo Jo Risin wrote:expand_more
In the top 10 of the Sagarin ratings only three teams have S.O.S. higher than 20, and that is Missouri at 26, Boise at 70 and TCU at 82.....In this instance Gordon Gee has a point.


Except Gee shouldn't be making the point as their S.O.S. is 68.


Yes. According to a SOS calculator that would chalk up 7-5 Iowa and 7-5 San Jose State as equal in difficulty.


That's not how Sagarin calculates strength of schedule. It's an average of the ratings of the teams you've played. Iowa had a 79.24 rating while San Jose St, had a rating of 53.20. So Ohio St. gets much more credit for playing Iowa than Boise St. does in playing San Jose State.

Ohio St.    
Sagarin rank Team Rating
108 Marshall 60.94
33 Miami 78.29
85 Ohio   66.42
182 Eastern Michigan 49.01
44 Illinois 75.34
99 Indiana 62.65
15 Wisconsin 86.40
91 Purdue 64.00
94 Minnesota 63.49
50 Penn St. 73.94
27 Iowa 79.24
48 Michigan  74.61

Boise St.    
Sagarin rank Team Rating
16 Va Tech 85.58
109 Wyoming 60.85
31 Oregon St. 79.08
161 New Mexico St. 51.82
80 Toledo 67.32
155 San Jose St. 53.20
84 La Tech 66.57
32 Hawaii 78.88
83 Idaho 66.60
63 Fresno St. 71.18
18 Nevada 83.98
110 Utah St. 60.80
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 12/9/2010 10:43 AM
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Mr. Mo Jo Risin wrote:expand_more
In the top 10 of the Sagarin ratings only three teams have S.O.S. higher than 20, and that is Missouri at 26, Boise at 70 and TCU at 82.....In this instance Gordon Gee has a point.


Except Gee shouldn't be making the point as their S.O.S. is 68.


Yes. According to a SOS calculator that would chalk up 7-5 Iowa and 7-5 San Jose State as equal in difficulty.


Not really.  The SOS calculations all count not only your opponents' records, but also the records of your opponents' opponents.  Therefore, Iowa and San Jose State would not be counted as equally difficult opponents in any of the BCS computer rankings.
Bobcat36
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Posted: 12/9/2010 10:49 AM
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OUbobcat9092 wrote:expand_more
  But when Miami (Fl), Iowa, Penn State and Michigan go down in flames, and Purdue, Indiana, Minnesota and Illinois suck it is suddenly convenient to point out the weakness is the Buckeyes schedule.


Fixed that for you...


This made my morning!
Mr. Mo Jo Risin
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Posted: 12/9/2010 4:38 PM
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Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
In the top 10 of the Sagarin ratings only three teams have S.O.S. higher than 20, and that is Missouri at 26, Boise at 70 and TCU at 82.....In this instance Gordon Gee has a point.


Except Gee shouldn't be making the point as their S.O.S. is 68.


Yes. According to a SOS calculator that would chalk up 7-5 Iowa and 7-5 San Jose State as equal in difficulty.


Not really.  The SOS calculations all count not only your opponents' records, but also the records of your opponents' opponents.  Therefore, Iowa and San Jose State would not be counted as equally difficult opponents in any of the BCS computer rankings.


Ok.

Still, when you play weiner teams and they play weiner teams who play more weiner teams, a true SOS is not found.
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 12/9/2010 5:47 PM
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Mr. Mo Jo Risin wrote:expand_more
In the top 10 of the Sagarin ratings only three teams have S.O.S. higher than 20, and that is Missouri at 26, Boise at 70 and TCU at 82.....In this instance Gordon Gee has a point.


Except Gee shouldn't be making the point as their S.O.S. is 68.


Yes. According to a SOS calculator that would chalk up 7-5 Iowa and 7-5 San Jose State as equal in difficulty.


Not really.  The SOS calculations all count not only your opponents' records, but also the records of your opponents' opponents.  Therefore, Iowa and San Jose State would not be counted as equally difficult opponents in any of the BCS computer rankings.


Ok.

Still, when you play weiner teams and they play weiner teams who play more weiner teams, a true SOS is not found.


Um, yes it can. Just check the numbers. If Michigan and Penn St. return to their former glory, that would greatly help Ohio State's SOS. They were elso dinged because they played 8 home games to Boise's 6.
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