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Topic: UMass to the MAC-FB only
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Athens
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Posted: 11/30/2010 3:33 PM
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bostonbobcat wrote:expand_more
I'm going to ask my boss if I can negotiate my next salary + bonus deal with Steinbrecher....I would have him for lunch.

No basketball...ha ha ha.


Its no basketball for right now. In 2008 the MAC was very close to signing Temple and WKU for basketball but WKU backed out of it. The MAC is under contract with ESPN until 2016. With UMass as member they may be ready to make a jump in all sports by the next contract. The MAC has pursued UMass for 15 years but at the time there was no revenue to justify it. A tipping point has been reached finally with UMass where its more worth it to them to move up to FBS/MAC football. Part of it is schools are dropping out of the Colonial leaving UMass alone on a semi-big time island by itself in mostly low major New England. Hofstra and Northeastern have dropped football completely while Rhode Island is looking to move down to non-scholarship football. UMass into the MAC has been a long time dream, I can remember Bobby Pruitt talking about UMass someday becoming part of the MAC and the first piece was to get Temple in at least football only. Temple's success is convincing the UMass leadership that they can do it to. Its always baby steps in the MAC.


URI has already committed to move to the Northeast Conference (about 25-30 fewer scholarships than the CAA).


The situation that UMass is looking at in the CAA is dire. Northeastern and Hofstra have dropped football. Rhode Island is moving down by cutting 20 scholarships and Villanova is moving up by adding 20. Maine and New Hampshire haven't been that successful in the CAA are also talking about moving down. That leaves UMass knowhere else to go. Part of the deal for UMass to move up is for them to play their bigger games at Gillet Stadium. Their current home stadium is 18,000 which is at least OK by MAC standards. Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Maine have stadiums under 10k and are not MAC material or potentially MAC material for this reason.
Ohio Hoops
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Posted: 11/30/2010 3:44 PM
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Meanwhile the CAA is adding Old Dominion and Georgia State next year and JMU is increasing their seating to 25,000 next year. The CAA is the best conference in the FCS and the bottom schools just can't make it work. UMASS had a very solid squad this year and it'll be interesting to see how they compete in the MAC. Nova, William & Mary, and Delaware would absolutely work many of the schools in the MAC.
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 11/30/2010 5:31 PM
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Let's don't have any delusions of grandeur here, folks.  UMass is wanting to use the MAC just like UCF did.  It'll be several seasons of football before they move on.

There is no way on earth that UMass is coming into the MAC in basketball.  Are you kidding me? 

I've been very hard core against how the MAC took Temple for football only.  But UMass is so far away geographically that it's out of the question for them to be in the MAC for all sports. 

I think the MAC is closer competitively to the Colonial in both football and basketball than the A-10. 

The MAC and the Sun Belt are both trying to throw their hats in the FBS arms race, and the result is--both leagues don't have enough resources to succeed simultaneously in football and basketball.  Look at the ratings of both leagues in both sports. 
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 11/30/2010 6:10 PM
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Ohio Hoops wrote:expand_more
Meanwhile the CAA is adding Old Dominion and Georgia State next year and JMU is increasing their seating to 25,000 next year. The CAA is the best conference in the FCS and the bottom schools just can't make it work. UMASS had a very solid squad this year and it'll be interesting to see how they compete in the MAC. Nova, William & Mary, and Delaware would absolutely work many of the schools in the MAC.


Whoa!  I think you are forgetting about the Southern Conference which has been the class of that Division for years.
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 11/30/2010 6:15 PM
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Ohio Hoops wrote:expand_more
Meanwhile the CAA is adding Old Dominion and Georgia State next year and JMU is increasing their seating to 25,000 next year. The CAA is the best conference in the FCS and the bottom schools just can't make it work. UMASS had a very solid squad this year and it'll be interesting to see how they compete in the MAC. Nova, William & Mary, and Delaware would absolutely work many of the schools in the MAC.




Whoa!  I think you are forgetting about the Southern Conference which has been the class of that Division for years.  In the past 20 years the Southern Conference has won 9 National Championships on the field to the CAA's 5.  The CAA is very good, but to use the term the "Best", don't think so.
Ohio Hoops
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Posted: 11/30/2010 7:16 PM
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I ment more so recently than all time. The bottom of the Southern leaves a lot to be desired while the 9th place team in the CAA beat what might turn out to be the ACC champions.
Athens
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Posted: 11/30/2010 10:42 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Let's don't have any delusions of grandeur here, folks.  UMass is wanting to use the MAC just like UCF did.  It'll be several seasons of football before they move on.

There is no way on earth that UMass is coming into the MAC in basketball.  Are you kidding me? 

I've been very hard core against how the MAC took Temple for football only.  But UMass is so far away geographically that it's out of the question for them to be in the MAC for all sports.  


Where exactly is UMass going to go? The Big East is looking for schools in large TV markets and UMass doesn't fit the bill. CUSA is way too far and doesn't make sense for their football program. Marshall and East Carolina are complaining all the time about travel and UMass would be all that much further away. UMass is about a 4 hour drive from Temple but they can fly to schools in MAC country cheaply with short flights. It would really be no different than if the MAC added Middle Tennessee. The question also is how much more would they have to spend in the MAC over what they are spending now in the A-10. Dayton, Xavier, St. Louis, Charlotte, Richmond, Duquense, St. Bonaventure at least half of that league is not bussable as it is. Temple has more of a personal stake in the A-10 with other Philly schools but they have a budget large enough at 27 million to support air travel. Temple has also goon out and signed a lot of local non-conference series to offset costs in football and UMass is prepared to go that route. I am going to go as far as giving it a 50% chance both UMass and Temple make a decison to join all sports by next year. Temple almost pulled the trigger 2 years ago on it and would do so if a few travel partners can be found.   
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 11/30/2010 11:07 PM
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Thanks, Wes, for adding some sanity to Jeff's latest "we just the poor olde MAC and always will be" rant.  As I said in an earlier post, with Temple we held a hand with four aces and played like we had a pair of deuces.  A Temple fan once told me how dumbfounded he was that we didn't play our full hand in that negotiations.  Now, if UMass comes aboard, I think it's time to revisit this whole basketball issue.  An Eastern Division of the MAC in consisting of Temple, UMass, Buffalo, Kent State, Akron, Ohio, Miami (ship BG to the West) would seem to me to be a pretty strong basketball league in its own right.  It would probably be dominated for a few years by Temple and UMass, after which time the rest of the division (and hopefully the whole conference) would improve.  This would be similar to the improvement many noted in MAC football when Marshall returned to the league.  Dear Jeff, I love you man, I just wish you weren't so negative all the time, thinking that things can never improve in significant ways for Ohio athletics.  
Last Edited: 11/30/2010 11:10:20 PM by OhioCatFan
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 11/30/2010 11:53 PM
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I am still bored of threads about teams changing conferences--especially the ones that are only speculation.

The Situation
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Posted: 12/1/2010 12:04 AM
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UMass would be a tremendous addition to the MAC IF they bring football and basketball. It would also foreshadow bigger moves to come. But as I let this morning's news soak in throughout the day I tried to convince myself that if they only bring football I could still be happy. I really tried but ultimately I would feel less hopeful about this conference than ever before.

In the event that the Minutemen come over to the MAC just for football and this is the only move the Conference makes:
  • UMass will act as some sort of pseudo conference game for five or so years that will prove nothing more than a hasslement for the existing members
  • The MAC commissioner and staff will be the apex of futility
  • The MAC will have to wait at least another decade for a similar opportunity if ever
This will be a serious problem if UMass only brings football; a huge red flag for the MAC. I already hate the MAC as it is, except for Miami (and Marshall too but that doesn't count right?). I accept the current OOC schedules for the conference as a whole and MAC level of talent because it is what it is. That's what we have to work with right now, and I make the most of it. However when we all witness the MAC take another opportunity to rise up the conference ranks, only to piss it away because of poor leadership, at what point is it our responsibility to say something or better yet to do something at Ohio University?

Imagine the MAC in November of last year receiving a palm reading that said in just a few short years your conference will be 8th in football and return to a two bid basketball conference. (I say 8th in football because of the death of the WAC, and the opportunity to eclipse the MWC. Yes, there's Boise, but other than that the Mountain West will only be returning two .500 or above teams with the loss of TCU, Utah, and BYU.)

The MAC has to seize the day this time around. No more UCF, Marshall, or Temple-esque mistakes. I will be fully on the Bobcat Love bandwagon if the only change this time next year is UMass football.


perimeterpost
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Posted: 12/1/2010 12:22 AM
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If we're changing the MAC I'd like to get rid of all the schools named after a city or a direction. 
JSF
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Posted: 12/1/2010 12:26 AM
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I don't think UMass does much to raise our basketball profile.  They would be probably a middling East team; since Calipari left, they've slid back into mediocrity.
anorris
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Posted: 12/1/2010 12:40 AM
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perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
If we're changing the MAC I'd like to get rid of all the schools named after a city or a direction. 
I don't believe a 4-team football, 3-team basketball league would survive too long! 
Athens
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Posted: 12/1/2010 1:13 AM
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The Situation wrote:expand_more
I already hate the MAC as it is, except for Miami (and Marshall too but that doesn't count right?). I accept the current OOC schedules for the conference as a whole and MAC level of talent because it is what it is. That's what we have to work with right now, and I make the most of it. However when we all witness the MAC take another opportunity to rise up the conference ranks, only to piss it away because of poor leadership, at what point is it our responsibility to say something or better yet to do something at Ohio University?


I would have said looking at the MAC picture 15 years ago that the MAC was indeed holding this program back. Toledo was something like 11-0-1 in 1995 and finished only 24th in the polls. The MAC had only 1 bowl game max. There was no potential TV out there for football. To even join a league like CUSA in those days would be a quantum leap. What the MAC has to work with on the football side of things today is far better than what any non-BCS league could offer 15 years ago. 5 bowl tie-ins. Option to go to a BCS game. With the TCU/Boise State situation as is it hasn't been realistic for a MAC team recently but BCS busters TCU and Utah are now finding a home in BCS conferences while Boise is stepping up the schedule in the new MWC. Life in the MAC is improving.
perimeterpost
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Posted: 12/1/2010 1:38 AM
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anorris wrote:expand_more
If we're changing the MAC I'd like to get rid of all the schools named after a city or a direction. 
I don't believe a 4-team football, 3-team basketball league would survive too long! 


and we'd still be stuck with Miami. blecch.

Nothing personal against the directional schools, but those names tend to drag down the property value in the neighborhood. And is there another state in the union that has more schools named after towns than Ohio? We lucked out though, OHIO is a BCS name, even if Athens isn't a BCS market.

I saw this posted on a Herd board as an idea for a conference. Add in Temple and UMass and you'd have a good foodtball conference and an even better basketball conference.

Marshall
Ohio
Louisville
Cincy
East Carolina
Appy State
WVU
USM
Memphis
Miami OH
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Posted: 12/1/2010 4:32 AM
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The Situation wrote:expand_more
Sounds like another Miami to me, only looking at the information above, which is good.


I'm already dreaming about a year round Miami vs Ohio vs Temple vs Umass MAC east hate fest.

I just wish UB would be consistanlty better so I could hate them too.
The Situation
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Posted: 12/1/2010 9:44 AM
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Wes wrote:expand_more
I would have said looking at the MAC picture 15 years ago that the MAC was indeed holding this program back. Toledo was something like 11-0-1 in 1995 and finished only 24th in the polls. The MAC had only 1 bowl game max. There was no potential TV out there for football. To even join a league like CUSA in those days would be a quantum leap. What the MAC has to work with on the football side of things today is far better than what any non-BCS league could offer 15 years ago. 5 bowl tie-ins. Option to go to a BCS game. With the TCU/Boise State situation as is it hasn't been realistic for a MAC team recently but BCS busters TCU and Utah are now finding a home in BCS conferences while Boise is stepping up the schedule in the new MWC. Life in the MAC is improving.


Very valid points. One of the good things about where the MAC is now is the stability. Arguably the most stable of the 5 mid majors? So in that regard the MAC is giving Ohio the opportunity to grow on their own while keeping conference travel expenses relatively low and maybe even a little kick back now and again. Also, it appears that an unintended side affect of increased conference notoriety is the loss key members and eventually collapse.
Last Edited: 12/1/2010 9:46:36 AM by The Situation
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Posted: 12/1/2010 9:45 AM
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I'd love to have whatever some people on here are smoking...UC, U of L and WVU will never be associated with the remainder of the schools named in that dream conference!  Heck, I'm sure marshall, ECU and So Miss don't appreciate being placed there either.  Just wishful thinking...never gonna happen.
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Posted: 12/1/2010 11:46 AM
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OCF and Wes,

I'm not saying Ohio athletics can't improve.  I'm observing that I don't see UMass and the MAC being more than a temporary marriage of convenience until they can find something better. 

I used to be much more optimistic and supportive of plans for Ohio to move up to a better conference.  I also used to think that the MAC had much potential to improve.  However, it now appears to me that severe financial restrictions could be more than a temporary bump in the road, and instead could be a long term sea change (see Brian Boesch article).  If you could show me how Ohio (or any other MAC program) has the long term financial resources (I mean serious potential) to compete with schools currently in CUSA, or the WAC (for example), I'll issue a mea culpa (maybe).   

I think the OBC has done a good job of getting Ohio on track with private fundraising, and I foresee the OBC continuing to be a force.  The funds will be there for Ohio to have an athletics program...I'm just wondering if it will be on the level it is now? 
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 12/1/2010 12:20 PM
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Jeff, what you are asking for is an honest thought on the future with the resources and limitations of fiscal reality.  I am not sure some here can do that.  Note that currently the football team is not in town and will not be until roughly a week before any game, we simply can not afford it.  There will be no bonuses and families will be separated over the holidays because we can not afford to send them (all other schools do this).  We do a great job with what we have, simply what we have is not enough.
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Posted: 12/1/2010 3:50 PM
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I'm with the Love on this one. If I'm Steinbrecher, I'm not making this deal with UMASS, unless they join us in basketball as well.  The MAC needs to MUSCLE UP. 
Diamond Cat
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Posted: 12/1/2010 9:42 PM
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UMass and Temple in the MAC for football = me snoring. Please wake me up when they are gone (to such bigger and better things).
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Posted: 12/1/2010 10:01 PM
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Mulling it over for a day, I support this concept with our without an all sports (BB) requirement from UMass, however I would certainly prefer to see both Temps and UMass in for hoops.
  • I agree with the earlier poster that UMass is a great academic add to the Ohio/Miami/Temple mix, and UMass also has strong regional campus programs a la Ohio/Miami, perhaps even stronger considering UMass-Lowell is as large as some MAC campuses on its own.
  • Playing in another NFL stadium (Gillette) has to be a plus to prospective student athletes considering going to a MAC program, and crowds will be much larger for UMass games than the 10% of capacity "crowds" at the Link, even considering you have to travel 90 miles from Amherst to Foxboro.  It is actually easier/more cost effective for the MAC schools to travel to Foxboro/Boston for football than it will be to go to campus for hoops in Amherst.
  • I might be a little naive, but as president of the Alumni chapter here, and considering the games will be in Gillette, we will draw several hundred New England alums for the games here and it would instantly become an anchor event for generating more alumni interest/donations to the Ohio athletics program from alums in this region. (as was the case during the NCAA games in Providence)  It also wouldn't hurt in supporting attendance at the games if Taylor Price is able to stick with the Pats for several years and we could use him as an additional draw for Alums and their families.
  • Travel becomes more of a financial burden for the current MAC schools when you require the BB additions of UMass/Temple, especially considering the current budgetary concerns of all the schools and the requirement of traveling to both markets each season.
In reference to conference expansion, I think the MAC needs to get really aggressive at reaching the 16 school FB level soon, and do some surgery to strengthen itself as best it can considering its financial limitations:
  • Dump EMU for all sports.  It would be nice to see either Akron or Kant go as well but I think that won't happen due to the strengths of other programs at each (hoops and soccer at UA, hoops and golf at Kant)
  • Even if it is FB only, go hard for the Military Academies, and if they pass then court Delaware and Appy plus MTSU or WKU for all sports. (or maybe Wofford...just kidding Love, wanted to see if you were reading)
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Posted: 12/2/2010 12:09 AM
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I like the idea of Delaware if Temple and UMass are going to be in the mix.  I think Appy State will try to stay in the south.  Agree on WKU. 
perimeterpost
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Posted: 12/2/2010 12:47 AM
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taking football only schools is hurting an already devalued MAC brand. Everybody knows that Temple, and now possibly UMass are "choosing" the MAC because there's nowhere else to go. When the MAC allows them to park their football program it reinforces the perception that the MAC is not a conference of value. What self respecting conference would allow an FCS team to dictate which sports they will or won't add?

Temple is just now learning what happens when you have some success in a devalued conference- not much. Success in any sport helps build brand value for the conference, which bleeds over to other sports. By holding out with a basketball program that could elevate the profile of the conference you are hurting your own football team.

I read some Fordham fans talking about a hypothetical move to the MAC and they were for it if it was football only. Their basketball team has won 5 games in the last 2 years! And they think they're too good for the MAC. Where did they ever get the idea that they would be able to negotiate something like that? Hmm, I wonder.
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