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Topic: BCS teams say no to OHIO
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Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 5/22/2011 6:01 PM
R Fox--right, I don't see how the  MAC will have much claim on one of 16 spots.  Jeff McK--I don't know how many 'major' confs will get automatic bids.  But I imagine that there will be 6-8 slots left after those automatic conference slots.  To think that a MAC school is going to get one of those over the runner-ups in such as the SEC, PAC-12, BigTenwhatever, etc is not being very rational.  Probably won't happen once every five years.

What do you think a playoff will mean for the bowl system then?  WIll bowl games still be fun almost no matter what bowl you're in?  Or will they quickly die off because a 16 team playoff system gives you 15 games that will be very greatly followed?  Will there be any room for, or interest in, anything beyond those 15 bowl--oh, sorry, playoff-- games?

I'm very doubtful.  I could be very mistaken.  But I think that most of you are going with emotion and not at all looking at this from a perspective of business.  Big business.

Which states that when no one cares about something (such as bowl games between teams not even good enough to make the playoffs when we have 15 great games to look forward to over a four week period), then that something...those bowl games...die for lack of commercial interest.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 5/22/2011 6:16 PM
For instance, see the link that MonroeClassmate posted in the Orlando Sentinel countdown.  presnapread.com has a sidebar about first year starter qb's under the spotlight at:  Arkansas, N.C. State, Auburn, TCU, Wisconsin, Missouri, Clemson, Washington, Georgia Tech and Florida State.

If any of those don't win their conf's auto bid, tell me which one of those takes a back seat to a MAC school in getting into a 16 game playoff?

Exhibit 1 unfortunately, might be Ball.  Weren't they 10-0 a couple of years ago, really looking national?  Oops, loss in MAC title game followed by loss in bowl game.   That along withour bowl poop last year raises the bar (lowers it?) on MAC football.  Unless a MAC school wins all of its games, no legitimacy and no shot at a playoff.

Even then, do you think the bigs would feel bad about leaving out an undeated MAC school in favor of a two loss Clemson or Wisconsin?
JSF
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Posted: 5/22/2011 8:19 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
R Fox--right, I don't see how the  MAC will have much claim on one of 16 spots.


Because it's the case in every NCAA-sponsored tournament.
Robert Fox
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Posted: 5/22/2011 8:39 PM

The 16-team playoff system would only work if all FBS conferences were included. Not including all 16 conferences would open significant anti-trust issues, and I would expect a major outcry from all the schools that were "left out" -- enough of an outcry that the NCAA would think long and hard before implementing an exclusionary system.

The argument that second, third, fourth-place teams in the SEC or Big 10, or whatever, are better teams than the MAC champ are TEMPORARILY true. Once a 16-team playoff system is in place, however, much-needed conference equity begins to balance things out a bit more. Sure, the big conferences will probably still command higher seeds, but because of the automatic qualification, the MAC and similar conferences will--over time--increase the overall quality of the conference.

 

OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/22/2011 9:29 PM
Just got home from a long weekend in Dayton, so I haven't seen the article in question, but as reported here it's clear to me that there's a lot of BS floating around on this subject.  As Flomo has said, the reason we don't have as many BSC teams coming into Peden as they have coming into that God-forsaken black hole called Oxford is that we don't want to sign 1-1s with lower level BCS teams.  We have rejected offers that have come our way, and we haven't tried to look for situations that we could benefit from.  Yes, I have had some very good sources for this information.  If I have the time I may very well do an FOI request to prove it, like I did with the Northwestern contract a few years ago. I would ask for correspondence between Ohio and ESPN (and/or Boston College) prior to Frank Year 2, and then about one year later for the correspondence between Louisville and Ohio.  We are using the go-slow and gradual improvement over time strategy.  After we've beaten up the little sisters of the dead for a few years then we'll consider upgrading things a little.  Perhaps, this is the best strategy.  I'll play along for awhile, but I have my limits for this kind of thing.  If Schaus really implied that we are having trouble getting any BCS teams to play in Peden, he's totally misrepresenting the facts.  I suspect that he was just doing some CYA on behalf of Frank, who really seems to want a dumb-down schedule for the time being.  
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 5/23/2011 1:56 AM
I just don't see the MAC getting an automatic slot.  Too much money at stake for the bigs to give that up.  They'll argue that we produce a top twenty team once a decade or so and, therefore, do not deserve an automatic.  We might not like that argument.  But they'll tell us that if we're really deserving then we'll get such very strong consid for one of the non-automatics--and deny us.

If the conferences can re-align as they've been doing and if some schools can have their own tv contracts, I don't see anti-trust being a concern.  They'll tell us that we'll be in if we're one of the top 16 ranked.  But we won't get an automatic bid.

Anybody gonna answer my thought about what a 16 team/15 game/4 week-long playoff will do to the bowl game system as presently constituted.  No effect?  Kill it?  Enahance it?
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Posted: 5/23/2011 6:02 AM
Enahance it.
Mike Coleman
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Posted: 5/23/2011 6:21 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Just got home from a long weekend in Dayton, so I haven't seen the article in question, but as reported here it's clear to me that there's a lot of BS floating around on this subject.  As Flomo has said, the reason we don't have as many BSC teams coming into Peden as they have coming into that God-forsaken black hole called Oxford is that we don't want to sign 1-1s with lower level BCS teams.  We have rejected offers that have come our way, and we haven't tried to look for situations that we could benefit from.  Yes, I have had some very good sources for this information.  If I have the time I may very well do an FOI request to prove it, like I did with the Northwestern contract a few years ago. I would ask for correspondence between Ohio and ESPN (and/or Boston College) prior to Frank Year 2, and then about one year later for the correspondence between Louisville and Ohio.  We are using the go-slow and gradual improvement over time strategy.  After we've beaten up the little sisters of the dead for a few years then we'll consider upgrading things a little.  Perhaps, this is the best strategy.  I'll play along for awhile, but I have my limits for this kind of thing.  If Schaus really implied that we are having trouble getting any BCS teams to play in Peden, he's totally misrepresenting the facts.  I suspect that he was just doing some CYA on behalf of Frank, who really seems to want a dumb-down schedule for the time being.  


I can attest to the discussions among Ohio and BC/Louisville. However, Schaus was not AD during those discussions.
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Posted: 5/23/2011 9:16 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
I just don't see the MAC getting an automatic slot.  Too much money at stake for the bigs to give that up.  They'll argue that we produce a top twenty team once a decade or so and, therefore, do not deserve an automatic.  We might not like that argument.  But they'll tell us that if we're really deserving then we'll get such very strong consid for one of the non-automatics--and deny us.


Except if it's a playoff, it's not the conferences that control it, it's the NCAA. And the NCAA has rules regarding this.
anorris
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Posted: 5/23/2011 9:43 AM
Monroe: probably kill it, and I don't really see that as particularly terrible, since we're at a point already where the system is so broken the vast majority of the teams going to bowls -- even many of them with history and tradition -- are paying out of pocket to cover the expense associated, so that the games are guaranteed their profit.  The system is broken, and it is hurting a lot of the institutions in a big way.
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Posted: 5/23/2011 10:10 AM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I just don't see the MAC getting an automatic slot.  Too much money at stake for the bigs to give that up.  They'll argue that we produce a top twenty team once a decade or so and, therefore, do not deserve an automatic.  We might not like that argument.  But they'll tell us that if we're really deserving then we'll get such very strong consid for one of the non-automatics--and deny us.


Except if it's a playoff, it's not the conferences that control it, it's the NCAA. And the NCAA has rules regarding this.


I don't think you can take it as read that the NCAA would be running a major college football (or I-A or FBS, etc) playoff. The NCAA currently does not have any control over the BCS system of determining the "Coaches" national championship winner --other than licensing the bowls--and I don't think you can just assume that the I-A conferences are going to cede that power to the NCAA.
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Posted: 5/23/2011 10:18 AM
I don't see how they can't take control. The bowl system has kept them away essentially because of grandfathering. There would be massive NCAA interest in running a playoff as well as considerable external pressure.
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Posted: 5/23/2011 10:55 AM
Has Ohio had a 1:1 within the last thirty years with any current BCS team? It's my impression that whenever one of those has appeared in Peden it has been as a part of a 2:1 deal, which is a real killer for the budget. When a road game is worth $6-800,000, that is like paying $1.5 to get a BCS foe in Peden.
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Posted: 5/23/2011 11:19 AM
Last one would be Cincinnati, however they were not in a major conference at that time. That was late 70's and 81', Va Tech in early 70's, and WVU in the 40's.  Last school to visit Peden on a 1:1 basis and still in a major conference was NEVER.
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Posted: 5/23/2011 3:00 PM
In full disclosure, I'm AGAINST conference auto-bids in this hypothetical playoff...

However, if your Candyland dreams of a playoff did come to fruition, there might be one, and only one way the MAC gets stronger. Well actually two, but we won't consider contraction in this example.

There might be a couple football programs out there that would accept the reality that they are perennially just outside winning their conference and of receiving an auto-bid. They might, just might, decide their best course of action is to join the MAC. It's the ol' big fish and the small, antiquated, directional-infused pond.

I'm sure the grumblings of their fans of having to watch the Why Pay More brands of football will be loud. But by winning the MAC and getting to the the playoffs, all will be forgiven. The question being: is the pay day is worth it?

Ok, I see your pitchforks, funeral protests and the "Keep Your Government Hands off My MAC" placards. I know that you creamulate your drawers over the unique (to FBS, not necessarily FCS) excitement that MAC football delivers. And I'm sure you are aghast that someone would suggest that another team can just "steamroll" the MAC.

First off, the hypothetical program would be one that is no stranger to the lower top 25. I'm not suggesting UCF or your "pass the Kleenex" faves Marshall. Secondly, they don't have to "steamroll" the MAC. I, of course, am going to assume that a team familiar with top 25 rankings can (and should) beat the current crop of MAC teams a vast majority of times. Yes, I am making an ass out of u and me... hee haw....

Farfetched... maybe. But if that 1/16 slice of pie is worth it's weight in myrrh, than anything's possible. And by adding a perennial top-25 team (instead of a directional or a D1-AA with delusions of grandeur) the MAC will become a wee bit stronger...


Last Edited: 5/23/2011 3:12:24 PM by First Street Forever
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Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 5/23/2011 6:29 PM
First Street Forever wrote:expand_more
In full disclosure, I'm AGAINST conference auto-bids in this hypothetical playoff...

However, if your Candyland dreams of a playoff did come to fruition, there might be one, and only one way the MAC gets stronger. Well actually two, but we won't consider contraction in this example.

There might be a couple football programs out there that would accept the reality that they are perennially just outside winning their conference and of receiving an auto-bid. They might, just might, decide their best course of action is to join the MAC. It's the ol' big fish and the small, antiquated, directional-infused pond.

I'm sure the grumblings of their fans of having to watch the Why Pay More brands of football will be loud. But by winning the MAC and getting to the the playoffs, all will be forgiven. The question being: is the pay day is worth it?

Ok, I see your pitchforks, funeral protests and the "Keep Your Government Hands off My MAC" placards. I know that you creamulate your drawers over the unique (to FBS, not necessarily FCS) excitement that MAC football delivers. And I'm sure you are aghast that someone would suggest that another team can just "steamroll" the MAC.

First off, the hypothetical program would be one that is no stranger to the lower top 25. I'm not suggesting UCF or your "pass the Kleenex" faves Marshall. Secondly, they don't have to "steamroll" the MAC. I, of course, am going to assume that a team familiar with top 25 rankings can (and should) beat the current crop of MAC teams a vast majority of times. Yes, I am making an ass out of u and me... hee haw....

Farfetched... maybe. But if that 1/16 slice of pie is worth it's weight in myrrh, than anything's possible. And by adding a perennial top-25 team (instead of a directional or a D1-AA with delusions of grandeur) the MAC will become a wee bit stronger...




I don't really hardly understand a word of what you're saying.  For you have written a screed that is more obtuse and troubling than what I usually put up.  I salute you.

Also, though I am baffled by your soliloquy, I totally agree with it.
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Posted: 5/23/2011 8:14 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
....Not dead, just very ill.  Just as in basketball, where the so-called mid-majors have two tiers (with the MAC in the lower tier), non-AQ football has developed into two tiers --  WAC and MWC are the upper and the MAC, CUSA and Sun Belt are the lower. 


I would disagree with your take on the WAC. Remember all the Conference realignments.  TheMWC is adding Boise State, Fresno, and Nevada and Hawaii to make up for the loss of BYU, TCU, and Utah. They are still a strong conference, and the best of the non-AQ conferences, but they are a step further away from getting an automatic qualifier than they were.

Of the other conferences, CUSA is a step better than the MAC, but the MAC and Sunbelt are probably close. As for the WAC, they have been torn up, losing their four best teams, Boise, Nevada, Hawaii, and Fesno to the MWC, and addiing Texas State and Texas San Antonio as replacements. At this point they are probably the weakest of the non-AQ conferences.
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Posted: 5/23/2011 8:57 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Has Ohio had a 1:1 within the last thirty years with any current BCS team? It's my impression that whenever one of those has appeared in Peden it has been as a part of a 2:1 deal, which is a real killer for the budget. When a road game is worth $6-800,000, that is like paying $1.5 to get a BCS foe in Peden.


Don't know if this was a planned 1:1 but we were at UConn in 2002 when they were moving up to 1A and they came here in '09.  That's the only two times the schools have played.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 5/23/2011 9:23 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Has Ohio had a 1:1 within the last thirty years with any current BCS team? It's my impression that whenever one of those has appeared in Peden it has been as a part of a 2:1 deal, which is a real killer for the budget. When a road game is worth $6-800,000, that is like paying $1.5 to get a BCS foe in Peden.


So, for all those persons who think that we can get BCS to waltz in to Peden, the message is?
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/23/2011 10:14 PM
BattleCat wrote:expand_more
Last one would be Cincinnati, however they were not in a major conference at that time. That was late 70's and 81', Va Tech in early 70's, and WVU in the 40's.  Last school to visit Peden on a 1:1 basis and still in a major conference was NEVER.


You forgot about UCONN, which was BCS when they visited Ohio and still are.  They were not BCS when we signed the contract, though.  Oh, I guess you're right. The Big Least is not a major conference! 
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/23/2011 10:28 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Has Ohio had a 1:1 within the last thirty years with any current BCS team? It's my impression that whenever one of those has appeared in Peden it has been as a part of a 2:1 deal, which is a real killer for the budget. When a road game is worth $6-800,000, that is like paying $1.5 to get a BCS foe in Peden.


So, for all those persons who think that we can get BCS to waltz in to Peden, the message is?


The phenomenon of BCS schools signing 1:1 deals with MAC schools is fairly new.  It's a product of increasing the number of regular season games to 12 and the growing need of BCS schools to finesse their schedules for bowl eligibility.  This latter point gives the non-BCS schools added bargaining power.  However, the point is that several other MAC schools have recently signed 1-1 deals with BCS schools and OHIO has not.   LC is correct that in the past all but the UCONN deal, which was signed before UCONN went BCS, were at least 2:1 deals.  This, however, begs the question of why we have not signed these type of deals in the same time frame that other MAC schools have.  I submit it is because we don't want to, which I think is short sighted.  I predict that, despite all that's been said recently on the subject, that we will sign a 1:1 with a BCS school after our first MAC Conference championship year, which hopefully will be very soon. 
Last Edited: 5/23/2011 10:31:06 PM by OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/24/2011 10:04 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Last one would be Cincinnati, however they were not in a major conference at that time. That was late 70's and 81', Va Tech in early 70's, and WVU in the 40's.  Last school to visit Peden on a 1:1 basis and still in a major conference was NEVER.


You forgot about UCONN, which was BCS when they visited Ohio and still are.  They were not BCS when we signed the contract, though.  Oh, I guess you're right. The Big Least is not a major conference! 


Sorry but UConn was a 2:1 the return game to Storrs was canceled several years ago. 
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/24/2011 9:57 PM
BattleCat wrote:expand_more
Last one would be Cincinnati, however they were not in a major conference at that time. That was late 70's and 81', Va Tech in early 70's, and WVU in the 40's.  Last school to visit Peden on a 1:1 basis and still in a major conference was NEVER.


You forgot about UCONN, which was BCS when they visited Ohio and still are.  They were not BCS when we signed the contract, though.  Oh, I guess you're right. The Big Least is not a major conference! 


Sorry but UConn was a 2:1 the return game to Storrs was canceled several years ago. 


At that point, it became a 1:1.  As I understand it, the finances were re-negotiated into a typical 1:1 contract.  And, since the contract was originally written when they were an FCS (1-AA) school, I had thought the 2:1 was two in Athens and one in Storrs.  Usually our FCS contracts are one and done, but UCONN was a little more "high profile," even back in those days, than your typical FCS school.  So maybe you are right that the third game was to be in Storrs.  However, I do believe that as renegotiated the contract was a 1:1.






Last Edited: 5/24/2011 10:00:29 PM by OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/24/2011 10:36 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Last one would be Cincinnati, however they were not in a major conference at that time. That was late 70's and 81', Va Tech in early 70's, and WVU in the 40's.  Last school to visit Peden on a 1:1 basis and still in a major conference was NEVER.


You forgot about UCONN, which was BCS when they visited Ohio and still are.  They were not BCS when we signed the contract, though.  Oh, I guess you're right. The Big Least is not a major conference! 


Sorry but UConn was a 2:1 the return game to Storrs was canceled several years ago. 


At that point, it became a 1:1.  As I understand it, the finances were re-negotiated into a typical 1:1 contract.  And, since the contract was originally written when they were an FCS (1-AA) school, I had thought the 2:1 was two in Athens and one in Storrs.  Usually our FCS contracts are one and done, but UCONN was a little more "high profile," even back in those days, than your typical FCS school.  So maybe you are right that the third game was to be in Storrs.  However, I do believe that as renegotiated the contract was a 1:1.


The original series was a 2 for 2 when it was signed 10 years ago and later reduced to a 1:1 by Hocutt I believe. That Ohio would sign a 2 for 1 wth a transitional FBS program, even one in the Big East, is not going to happen. It was around the same time that Boeh signed a now defunct 2 for 2 with the University of Central Florida prior to the school joining the MAC. Once UCF joined the MAC that series was cancelled.
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