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Topic: What type of school in Athens would lead to the best town/gown relations? (NT)
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Paul Graham
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Posted: 7/14/2011 5:24 PM
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DublinCat wrote:expand_more
So many people within a 50 mile radius of Athens view Ohio University as an elitist enclave in a poor, Appalachian culture...and perception is reality.  For example, people look at the construction of very fine buildings (e.g., the new Baker) on the OU campus and complain about why there is not more state money going to the "average person."  If you try to explain how the funding pots work for capital projects, they don't listen.  Another example is that locals notice that many of the resident students are from NE Ohio, Columbus, or elsewhere...people who do not have a vested interest in SE Ohio.  

Funny thing is...go to Huntington and the town-gown situation with Marshall is very, very different.  It's like the whole metro area gets "behind the Herd."  Marshall is not viewed as an elitist enclave.  Is this due to the type of students who enroll there (mostly from within a 100 mile radius), or because of the way the university communicates with the local populace?  


Huntington is a very pro business community.  The local business community in Huntington, Charleston and Parkersburg support the Herd.  The University helps to promote economic development from Huntington, Charleston to Parkersburg. 

Athens is considered a VERY anti business community.  Lots of non profit economic development groups but any development has to fit their narrow agenda.  The funding of some of these groups is alarming compared to the little results they have produced.  More and more land is now owned by the University (State) thus produces no property tax and little revenue for fire trucks and police.  It’s a battle to operate a business of any significance in Athens and many view the public employee decision makers as those with little experience, terrible results yet guaranteed life time incomes.  What is left of the local business community gets to pay for it and when they run out of money (which they always do) they always look for new ways to take more.  Try to get a private business project approved in Athens vs. Huntington and see which happens first.  A lot of townies like living in their home town….they just have to work somewhere else. 



This may be true, but I don't see how this relates to the university. 
First Street Forever
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Posted: 7/14/2011 6:24 PM
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JSF wrote:expand_more
I don't see this reputation as deserved. The last decade has seen a huge growth of expansion and development. Freaking Wal-Mart opened up shop despite a large resistance effort. East State Street went from a neighborhood street to the commercial center of town. Court Street is in better shape than it was, say, five or six years ago. Diagnostic Hybrids and Third Sun are two of the state's biggest success stories. What businesses have been beating down Athens' door, only to get stiffed?


Speaking of business, is the Woolworth building still empty? Man, Woolworth's closed during my freshman year. Please tell me that it is filled - although there's probably a good story if it hasn't...
JSF
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Posted: 7/14/2011 6:27 PM
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First Street Forever wrote:expand_more
I don't see this reputation as deserved. The last decade has seen a huge growth of expansion and development. Freaking Wal-Mart opened up shop despite a large resistance effort. East State Street went from a neighborhood street to the commercial center of town. Court Street is in better shape than it was, say, five or six years ago. Diagnostic Hybrids and Third Sun are two of the state's biggest success stories. What businesses have been beating down Athens' door, only to get stiffed?


Speaking of business, is the Woolworth building still empty? Man, Woolworth's closed during my freshman year. Please tell me that it is filled - although there's probably a good story if it hasn't...


There have been temporary tenants, but no. Recently, though, there have been rumors of a business moving in.
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Posted: 7/14/2011 9:46 PM
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Are most of you leaving in or near Athens?

I live in L.A. and I can tell you that if you look around as you walk or bicycle or drive then you will see plenty of empty storefronts.  The employment situation is bad.  We're not losing jobs but there is a mind-bending group of people who have been unemployed for a long time.

I'm not looking to start a political discussion about that.  Such a discussion would get crazy in two posts.  I just am curious about what you all see in terms of signs of 'the economy'--lots of emptiness around southern California.  I'm betting that's pretty much the story across the nation.
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Posted: 7/14/2011 10:18 PM
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Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
So many people within a 50 mile radius of Athens view Ohio University as an elitist enclave in a poor, Appalachian culture...and perception is reality. For example, people look at the construction of very fine buildings (e.g., the new Baker) on the OU campus and complain about why there is not more state money going to the "average person." If you try to explain how the funding pots work for capital projects, they don't listen. Another example is that locals notice that many of the resident students are from NE Ohio, Columbus, or elsewhere...people who do not have a vested interest in SE Ohio. Funny thing is...go to Huntington and the town-gown situation with Marshall is very, very different. It's like the whole metro area gets "behind the Herd." Marshall is not viewed as an elitist enclave. Is this due to the type of students who enroll there (mostly from within a 100 mile radius), or because of the way the university communicates with the local populace?
Huntington is a very pro business community. The local business community in Huntington, Charleston and Parkersburg support the Herd. The University helps to promote economic development from Huntington, Charleston to Parkersburg. Athens is considered a VERY anti business community. Lots of non profit economic development groups but any development has to fit their narrow agenda. The funding of some of these groups is alarming compared to the little results they have produced. More and more land is now owned by the University (State) thus produces no property tax and little revenue for fire trucks and police. It’s a battle to operate a business of any significance in Athens and many view the public employee decision makers as those with little experience, terrible results yet guaranteed life time incomes. What is left of the local business community gets to pay for it and when they run out of money (which they always do) they always look for new ways to take more. Try to get a private business project approved in Athens vs. Huntington and see which happens first. A lot of townies like living in their home town….they just have to work somewhere else.
This may be true, but I don't see how this relates to the university.
Last Edited: 7/15/2011 7:56:50 AM by DublinCat
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/14/2011 10:40 PM
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DublinCat wrote:expand_more

Let me say that I love the university and Athens.  But here is how it relates. There are many examples where the university has gone into direct competition with local business owners.  For instance local plans to develop a large class A hotel and the University steps in and outbids local private investors to take the OU Inn from a long time private sector business to state public property canceling any additional development plans and once again eliminating the property tax revenue to cover city services.   When you have University officials leading the charge to close the local coal mines and eliminate thousands of good paying regional jobs you are going to have tension.   

In contrast attend a Marshall Football game and you will see video board commercials supporting clean coal technology and promoting the regional heritage of the community.  When university associates and leaders sit on highly funded failed "economic development boards" spending federal development dollars to buy land so that it can never be developed there is going to be tension.  When the school opens public funded convenient store across the street from long time privately owned stores you are going to have tension.  When they university opens a public funded movie theater in direct competition with privately owned tax paying movie theater owner you are going to have tension.  Wall – Mart was a big win yet its built on University acquired land and thus leased once again providing much less property tax revenue for the community.  These are simply a few of many examples where the University has gone into direct competition with local business owners.   

DHI was a nice win for the University and has helped bring some good paying jobs to the area.  I agree the downtown looks better than ever and it was a nice political payoff for Athens to receive 100% of the regions shovel ready stimulus money for their election efforts.   Opening a coffee shop is easy, but if you want to bring real private sector jobs to the area ask TS Trim or Rossi Pasta about their experience.  Much easier to do in Logan, Marietta etc.  Community pride, cooperation and respect for the regional heritage is in large part why you will see Go Herd signs all over the outskirts of Athens.  



POY!  This should be read by every official at OU and every student and every alumnus and alumna!   In a nutshell this captures why we've had town-gown conflicts since the day that the locals ran President William Holmes McGuffey out of town on a rail for trying to raise the rents on the university lands (at that time all of Athens and Alexander townships).  Unfortunately our Confederation Congress land grant, unlike the Morrill Act land grants three-quarters of century later, didn't come with all sorts of federal funds attached. 

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Posted: 7/14/2011 11:22 PM
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First Street Forever wrote:expand_more
I don't see this reputation as deserved. The last decade has seen a huge growth of expansion and development. Freaking Wal-Mart opened up shop despite a large resistance effort. East State Street went from a neighborhood street to the commercial center of town. Court Street is in better shape than it was, say, five or six years ago. Diagnostic Hybrids and Third Sun are two of the state's biggest success stories. What businesses have been beating down Athens' door, only to get stiffed?


Speaking of business, is the Woolworth building still empty? Man, Woolworth's closed during my freshman year. Please tell me that it is filled - although there's probably a good story if it hasn't...
Woolworths has been empty since the left town (first floor and basement, upper floors have apartments). The A-News had a feature article on this on Monday. Also vacant is Burger King and the Blue Gator, three largest street level store fronts up-town are vacant in Athens and have been for sometime.

To build on Dublin Cat's post most all of the River side of East State Street is University owned and is either tax free or greatly reduced due to who the owner of the property is. This includes Kroger, Walmart, Lowes! And the Strip stores in-between.
Last Edited: 7/14/2011 11:28:10 PM by BattleCat
JSF
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Posted: 7/14/2011 11:34 PM
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DublinCat wrote:expand_more
Let me say that I love the university and Athens.  But here is how it relates. There are many examples where the university has gone into direct competition with local business owners.  For instance local plans to develop a large class A hotel and the University steps in and outbids local private investors to take the OU Inn from a long time private sector business to state public property canceling any additional development plans and once again eliminating the property tax revenue to cover city services.   When you have University officials leading the charge to close the local coal mines and eliminate thousands of good paying regional jobs you are going to have tension.   

In contrast attend a Marshall Football game and you will see video board commercials supporting clean coal technology and promoting the regional heritage of the community.



Which is just one more reason why we're better than Marshall- we're not in Big Coal's pocket. Yes, it costs us jobs, but I'd rather not experience Upper Big Branch locally. And I would rather not see the environmental devastation mining creates.

Quote:expand_more
When university associates and leaders sit on highly funded failed "economic development boards" spending federal development dollars to buy land so that it can never be developed there is going to be tension.  When the school opens public funded convenient store across the street from long time privately owned stores you are going to have tension.


Attribute these, please.

Quote:expand_more
When they university opens a public funded movie theater in direct competition with privately owned tax paying movie theater owner you are going to have tension.


Throwing the flag on this one. The Athena does not compete with any area theatres. They do not show the same movies and cater to a different audience than Grand and Movies 10. In addition, it gives students the chance to work and learn.

Quote:expand_more
Wall – Mart was a big win yet its built on University acquired land and thus leased once again providing much less property tax revenue for the community.


In theory, but Wal-Mart is really good at devaluing its own property to reduce its tax burden. It's possible the city is getting more than they otherwise would (I stress possible). And your problem is that the university owns too much land and looks for money-making opportunities? Why shouldn't it?

Quote:expand_more
Opening a coffee shop is easy, but if you want to bring real private sector jobs to the area ask TS Trim or Rossi Pasta about their experience.  Much easier to do in Logan, Marietta etc.


Because Athens is different from the rest of the country in losing manufacturing jobs? What great strides have Logan and Marietta made while we've been left in the dust?

BattleCat
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Posted: 7/14/2011 11:36 PM
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JSF, LOgan has many quality jobs in the non-service sector.
catfan28
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Posted: 7/14/2011 11:47 PM
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Athens is very different than most college towns. The rather "adversarial" relationship between OU and Athens is quite unique. I can think of a lot more examples like Marshall where the university is beloved: Penn State (State College) and Virginia Tech (Blacksburg) are two examples I'm personally familiar with.

Can anyone else think of some examples that might be more similar to the Athens-OU relationship?
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Posted: 7/15/2011 12:11 AM
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BobcatBigFish wrote:expand_more
Can anyone else think of some examples that might be more similar to the Athens-OU relationship?


Newark, DE. To some extent at least, though it's not nearly as intense. I see some distaste among my neighbors and some other nearby residents regarding the students, many of whom are from PA and NJ. There is some that think that these students, being from out of state, don't have a stake in the Newark community and in general I think it is a valid concern. On the other hand, the entire state of Delaware (all three counties!) are very supportive of the University and UD football games are some of the most popular events in the state.

Another parallel I can draw is the Administration vs. Faculty (a vocal minority of them anyway) problem that we have at OU. President Harker at UD was educated at Wharton and served as Dean there before taking over here and it shows in his business-oriented governance of the university. This irks some faculty who think he is not focusing enough on the core mission of the university, academia. Sound familiar? The biggest difference is that his compensation is MUCH more generous than what McDavis is receiving. $800,000+ in 2010.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 12:19 AM
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BBF, you pose an interesting question.  I personally can't think of another that is quite like our adversarial  relationship.  Even the hated Oxford Tech doesn't have the degree of town-gown conflict that we seem to have.  As a townie, I can tell you that though there has always been these tensions in Athens, they got a lot worse during the "Hippie Era" of the late '60s and early '70s.  That's the time period when many locals began to feel that not only was the university not a good corporate citizen but that it was also an almost foreign entity.  The worldviews of "town" and "gown" began to drift apart in ways that made communication ever more difficult.  Though things have gotten better since that time, we still have a long ways to go to get even back to level of understanding during the Baker years.  What I've just said is, admittedly, somewhat impressionistic, but I think it's essentiallly true. 
C Money
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Posted: 7/15/2011 7:51 AM
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I don't think the town/gown situation for Marshall is as rosie as is being described here. The people in Huntington love Marshall, primarily because of the football team. But when you look at some of the academic efforts, a lot of people could care less. There have been some positive strides in business development (Marshall University Research Corporation, Robert C. Byrd Institute for Advanced Flexible Manufacturing, etc.), but those big coal dollars go as much, if not more, to WVU as they do to Marshall. And the City of Huntington has taken some steps recently that are absolutely hostile to Marshall.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 7:54 AM
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BattleCat wrote:expand_more
I don't see this reputation as deserved. The last decade has seen a huge growth of expansion and development. Freaking Wal-Mart opened up shop despite a large resistance effort. East State Street went from a neighborhood street to the commercial center of town. Court Street is in better shape than it was, say, five or six years ago. Diagnostic Hybrids and Third Sun are two of the state's biggest success stories. What businesses have been beating down Athens' door, only to get stiffed?


Speaking of business, is the Woolworth building still empty? Man, Woolworth's closed during my freshman year. Please tell me that it is filled - although there's probably a good story if it hasn't...


Woolworths has been empty since the left town (first floor and basement, upper floors have apartments). The A-News had a feature article on this on Monday. Also vacant is Burger King and the Blue Gator, three largest street level store fronts up-town are vacant in Athens and have been for sometime.

To build on Dublin Cat's post most all of the River side of East State Street is University owned and is either tax free or greatly reduced due to who the owner of the property is. This includes Kroger, Walmart, Lowes! And the Strip stores in-between.


You can read lots of good stories on this building.  Lots of good and ideas but none that could get approved.  As for being like Marshall and supporting the local coal industry...what do you think electric cars run on?  Batteries?  


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Posted: 7/15/2011 8:21 AM
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DublinCat wrote:expand_more
You can read lots of good stories on this building.  Lots of good and ideas but none that could get approved.  As for being like Marshall and supporting the local coal industry...what do you think electric cars run on?  Batteries? 


Well... yeah. But I've never seen an electric car on the road. Maybe you have, but they're primarily on the West Coast right now. Might move East as time goes on, but we're all using combustion-style cars here in Ohio and WV. A good chunk of Ohio, of course, is powered by nuclear.

And as far as the empty Burger King goes: They were unable to get out of their lease, so they were paying rent for several years after they moved out. That had to suck for them. Several businesses have approached the building owner about the space, but they're strangely uninterested in renting it out. Aside from the Athens County Republican Party in 2008, it's been empty. It doesn't have to be, and that's on the building owner.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 8:30 AM
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Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Are most of you leaving in or near Athens?

I live in L.A. and I can tell you that if you look around as you walk or bicycle or drive then you will see plenty of empty storefronts.  The employment situation is bad.  We're not losing jobs but there is a mind-bending group of people who have been unemployed for a long time.

I'm not looking to start a political discussion about that.  Such a discussion would get crazy in two posts.  I just am curious about what you all see in terms of signs of 'the economy'--lots of emptiness around southern California.  I'm betting that's pretty much the story across the nation.


Lots of empty storefronts - not necessarily on Court Street, mind you - can have more to do with Over-development than anything else. That's certainly the case here in C-bus and surrounding towns. they just don't know when to quit with the go**amn minimalls. Or the regular-size malls for that matter.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 8:44 AM
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The biggest chunk of Ohio electric is powered by coal. And it will be for some time to come.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 9:26 AM
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Deleted because my reading comprehension is off this morning (more than usual). Post was about Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Va which was already mentioned...
Last Edited: 7/15/2011 9:30:40 AM by First Street Forever
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Posted: 7/15/2011 9:42 AM
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C Money wrote:expand_more
I don't think the town/gown situation for Marshall is as rosie as is being described here. The people in Huntington love Marshall, primarily because of the football team. But when you look at some of the academic efforts, a lot of people could care less. There have been some positive strides in business development (Marshall University Research Corporation, Robert C. Byrd Institute for Advanced Flexible Manufacturing, etc.), but those big coal dollars go as much, if not more, to WVU as they do to Marshall. And the City of Huntington has taken some steps recently that are absolutely hostile to Marshall.


Maybe a few MAC Titles will help ease the divide.  I know I am ready for some bobcat football!  
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Posted: 7/15/2011 9:59 AM
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Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
Are most of you leaving in or near Athens?

I live in L.A. and I can tell you that if you look around as you walk or bicycle or drive then you will see plenty of empty storefronts.  The employment situation is bad.  We're not losing jobs but there is a mind-bending group of people who have been unemployed for a long time.

I'm not looking to start a political discussion about that.  Such a discussion would get crazy in two posts.  I just am curious about what you all see in terms of signs of 'the economy'--lots of emptiness around southern California.  I'm betting that's pretty much the story across the nation.


Lots of empty storefronts - not necessarily on Court Street, mind you - can have more to do with Over-development than anything else. That's certainly the case here in C-bus and surrounding towns. they just don't know when to quit with the go**amn minimalls. Or the regular-size malls for that matter.


When you are paying half the available workforce populace to stay home you are going to have some empty store fronts and lots of empty buildings.  My son and I were playing golf and were paired with a 48 year old retired former state employee and his 83 year old grandfather in-law.  On the second tee box he pulled out his SB5 petition and asked me to sign it.  My jr. high educated son looked at him and said I am not paying for that.  I could not stop laughing.  They seemed like good guys.  Who knows I might have signed it.  They decided to play the back nine.  
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Posted: 7/15/2011 1:46 PM
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DublinCat wrote:expand_more
Are most of you leaving in or near Athens?

I live in L.A. and I can tell you that if you look around as you walk or bicycle or drive then you will see plenty of empty storefronts.  The employment situation is bad.  We're not losing jobs but there is a mind-bending group of people who have been unemployed for a long time.

I'm not looking to start a political discussion about that.  Such a discussion would get crazy in two posts.  I just am curious about what you all see in terms of signs of 'the economy'--lots of emptiness around southern California.  I'm betting that's pretty much the story across the nation.


Lots of empty storefronts - not necessarily on Court Street, mind you - can have more to do with Over-development than anything else. That's certainly the case here in C-bus and surrounding towns. they just don't know when to quit with the go**amn minimalls. Or the regular-size malls for that matter.


When you are paying half the available workforce populace to stay home you are going to have some empty store fronts and lots of empty buildings.  My son and I were playing golf and were paired with a 48 year old retired former state employee and his 83 year old grandfather in-law.  On the second tee box he pulled out his SB5 petition and asked me to sign it.  My jr. high educated son looked at him and said I am not paying for that.  I could not stop laughing.  They seemed like good guys.  Who knows I might have signed it.  They decided to play the back nine.  


Let's stop the politics.  It only gets real ugly real quick.

The above shows misconception/overexaggeration already.  If you wanna pm me offline and can be civil, I'd love to discuss this with you.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 5:23 PM
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JSF wrote:expand_more
You can read lots of good stories on this building. Lots of good and ideas but none that could get approved. As for being like Marshall and supporting the local coal industry...what do you think electric cars run on? Batteries?


Well... yeah. But I've never seen an electric car on the road. Maybe you have, but they're primarily on the West Coast right now. Might move East as time goes on, but we're all using combustion-style cars here in Ohio and WV. A good chunk of Ohio, of course, is powered by nuclear.

And as far as the empty Burger King goes: They were unable to get out of their lease, so they were paying rent for several years after they moved out. That had to suck for them. Several businesses have approached the building owner about the space, but they're strangely uninterested in renting it out. Aside from the Athens County Republican Party in 2008, it's been empty. It doesn't have to be, and that's on the building owner.
A : on the cars, open your eyes, for several years there has been a battery car being tested in Athens, and it wore a cover for all those years, used to park at the OU Inn across the street.

B: BK at Court street, without a drive thru they were suffering a 70% loss in business compared to sister stores. They purchased land, paid for construction and leased the old building and still made 150% more paying for two stores than they did on Court.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 8:53 PM
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224 years ago today Congress passed the Ordinance of 1787, creating the Northwest Territory and American Western University - the nation’s first federal endowment of an educational institution. Chartered in 1804, Ohio University is the ninth-oldest public university in the country, and remains Ohio’s “First and Finest”!

If AWU hadn't landed in Athens, what exactly would Athens be today, if it even was?
Last Edited: 7/15/2011 10:35:59 PM by D.A.
BattleCat
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Posted: 7/15/2011 10:00 PM
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D.A. wrote:expand_more
224 years ago today Congress passed the Ordinance of 1787, creating the Northwest Territory and American Western University - the nation’s first federal endowment of an educational institution. Chartered in 1804, Ohio University is the ninth-oldest public university in the country, and remains Ohio’s “First and Finest”!

If OWU hadn't landed in Athens, what exactly would Athens be today, if it even was?
Good question, I would imagine Athens would be NO different seeing how OWU is in Delaware, Ohio.
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Posted: 7/15/2011 10:36 PM
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BattleCat wrote:expand_more
224 years ago today Congress passed the Ordinance of 1787, creating the Northwest Territory and American Western University - the nation’s first federal endowment of an educational institution. Chartered in 1804, Ohio University is the ninth-oldest public university in the country, and remains Ohio’s “First and Finest”!

If OWU hadn't landed in Athens, what exactly would Athens be today, if it even was?


Good question, I would imagine Athens would be NO different seeing how OWU is in Delaware, Ohio.


Sorry BC, still striving for your level of perfection.
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