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Topic: Positive Remark about Ohio Students
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MedinaCat
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Posted: 11/11/2011 12:49 PM
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Let's not get too worked up over Mr. Hays. The world is a far more interesting place with a few "DB's". Additionally, the last thing I expect to read from the pen/keyboard of a professor of classic and world religions is the phrase "the whole shebang."
Last Edited: 11/11/2011 12:50:39 PM by MedinaCat
Bobcat36
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Posted: 11/11/2011 1:15 PM
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BobcatChopper78 wrote:expand_more
A) We all paid the exorbitant fees when we were undergrads too so, in my opinion, it all comes full circle so that current students may enjoy an enriching alumni experience after their days in Athens come to an end.




Exactly!  Football is what draws many Alumni back at least once a year.  It's a way to stay connected with the University.  I guarantee it not only has a positive marketing impact on potential non legacy students but also strengthens the bond for legacy parents.

It's a passing interest for most students at non football factory Univerities but it grows and strengthens life time and multigenerational bonds especially at a Campus that provides countless other life long emotional ties.


And Ryan, you're right...

He is a DB and worse, one that enjoys the sound of his own voice....
The Optimist
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Posted: 11/11/2011 1:26 PM
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Don't feed the animals.
anorris
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Posted: 11/11/2011 1:47 PM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more

 I think he raises an extremely valid point, in that students pay a fee to ensure that the OU football team can compete at the FBS level, and that based on the level of interest the student body shows in the football team, you can make a very valid argument that they simply don't care what level the team competes at. 

In fact, if given the option to save $800 dollars a year even if it meant the football team dropped down to FCS level, I'd venture to guess that the vast majority of OU students would opt for the $800 dollars in savings. Look around. The student loan industry is breaking, and universities are going to have to figure out ways to provide educations to students in a more cost efficient way. Throwing in additional fees to fund a poorly supported, financially insolvent football program seems a bit frivolous to me. 


You clearly don't seem to understand the economics of the system -- we would save nothing in student support competing at the FCS level.  If you want to save much student money, you have to go DII.  Period.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more

Just did a bit of sloppy Google research that showed Baker Center cost $60 million, resulting in $180 of new student fees per year. Ping cost $24 million and resulted in $216 in new student fees per year. I don't recall that much outrage over either, but I could be wrong. I was around for Ping and remember some mild complaining, but I wasn't around for Baker. I guess my point is that we could get in an argument over a lot of student fees and where they go and whether they're fair to people who don't feel they benefit. It's like taxes.

But his major point is that students use and go to the new Baker Center and Ping. Students don't go to football games. 


I attended 23 home football games in four years, and numerous others on the road.  I attended more than 20 Ohio basketball games last year at home and on the road.  I went to ping three times in four years, twice to play ping pong, and once to help with the taping of an ad for the university.  Baker Center was a moving walkway to me outside of maybe once or twice a quarter when I'd stop and have lunch at the food court.

I would never use my experience to argue against funding the two buildings, as they are clearly utilized by a large portion of the student body.

What was the number of student tickets set aside for the Marshall game?  I don't remember the number, but I recall it being more than a third of the Athens-based undergrad population.  More. Than. A. Third.

The largest student organization on campus, by a long shot, is the O Zone every year.  And unlike many of them, you have to pay to become a member.



The one thing I don't understand is why everyone is calling Steve Hayes a defensive back.  I haven't seen him on the roster!
Last Edited: 11/12/2011 2:16:53 AM by anorris
sargentfan
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Posted: 11/11/2011 2:56 PM
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+1 for anorris' post 
Paul Graham
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Posted: 11/11/2011 4:09 PM
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Steve Hays is clearly an asset to the school. He's a great professor (according to student reviews online) and he cares about the students and the rising cost of higher education. 

I (sorta) disagree with his stance on the cost of athletics, but in general I think its good that people like him are out there to keep the athletic department and the administration in check.

Also, I'd much rather have faculty that actually care about the university and are passionate about its trajectory, even if I disagree.
Recovering Journalist
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Posted: 11/11/2011 4:36 PM
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Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Steve Hays is clearly an asset to the school. He's a great professor (according to student reviews online) and he cares about the students and the rising cost of higher education. 

I (sorta) disagree with his stance on the cost of athletics, but in general I think its good that people like him are out there to keep the athletic department and the administration in check.

Also, I'd much rather have faculty that actually care about the university and are passionate about its trajectory, even if I disagree.


I certainly agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but I can't help but point out that Hays clearly has an agenda and he intentionally misleads readers to make it sound like football costs students $800/year. I hope he’s a good professor, and I don’t think calling him names or suggesting what he does is unimportant helps build the case for ICA. That said, his tactics in this argument leave a lot to be desired.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/11/2011 4:45 PM
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Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
Steve Hays is clearly an asset to the school. He's a great professor (according to student reviews online) and he cares about the students and the rising cost of higher education. 

I (sorta) disagree with his stance on the cost of athletics, but in general I think its good that people like him are out there to keep the athletic department and the administration in check.

Also, I'd much rather have faculty that actually care about the university and are passionate about its trajectory, even if I disagree.


I certainly agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but I can't help but point out that Hays clearly has an agenda and he intentionally misleads readers to make it sound like football costs students $800/year. I hope he’s a good professor, and I don’t think calling him names or suggesting what he does is unimportant helps build the case for ICA. That said, his tactics in this argument leave a lot to be desired.


Got to disagree and I would hope that the students who read the post can comprehend what he says as opposed to being mislead because they can't comprehend.  He says majority when he should have said the largest share.  Other than that, his statements are factual and true.  If everyone marched in lockstep behind the "official" position, well, history will tell you what happens then.  And for the record, I think some of you guys overstate the importance of athletics to the masses of college students.  Yes it's a part of the scene as we used to say but it's certainly not the scene to the majority of students here.  I bet you could stop 100 students on the street and the percentage who could tell you who the starting quarterback is or who the head coach is or who could name the 13 teams in the MAC is actually quite low.

OCF, since you're semi-retired, why don't you and I conduct such a study on Court Street some day?
Recovering Journalist
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Posted: 11/11/2011 4:59 PM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Got to disagree and I would hope that the students who read the post can comprehend what he says as opposed to being mislead because they can't comprehend.  He says majority when he should have said the largest share.  Other than that, his statements are factual and true.  If everyone marched in lockstep behind the "official" position, well, history will tell you what happens then.  And for the record, I think some of you guys overstate the importance of athletics to the masses of college students.  Yes it's a part of the scene as we used to say but it's certainly not the scene to the majority of students here.  I bet you could stop 100 students on the street and the percentage who could tell you who the starting quarterback is or who the head coach is or who could name the 13 teams in the MAC is actually quite low.


He actually said the “vast majority of that goes to football,” which is completely wrong. Look, I’m not an all-or-nothing person on this. I see valid points on both sides. But dealing in lies (“vast majority”) and abstractions (naming the starting quarterback or coach as proof of whether a student supports ICA) does not further one’s case. It just makes you sound polemic and unreasonable.
Athens
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Posted: 11/11/2011 5:22 PM
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So Hays is the one coming up with the 800 dollars yearly for football per student number? It simply doesn't add up. The student subsidy to Ohio Athletics is 18 million dollars and there are 21,000 students on campus. That ends up roughly 850 dollars per student for the entire athletic department and what is actually spent on football operations and salaries out of the total is only 140 dollars per student. To make the Hays numbers work, students would have to be subsidizing athletic department to the tune of 50 million a year. The further idea that we could save 800 dollars a student moving to FCS would require dropping from 40 million dollar football budget (larger than OSU's) to a MAC sized 5 million dollar budget. We aren't spending as much as the University of Texas on football. We are spending like a FCS program as it is. 
Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/11/2011 5:47 PM
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Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
So Hays is the one coming up with the 800 dollars yearly for football per student number? It simply doesn't add up. The student subsidy to Ohio Athletics is 18 million dollars and there are 21,000 students on campus. That ends up roughly 850 dollars per student for the entire athletic department and what is actually spent on football operations and salaries out of the total is only 140 dollars per student. To make the Hays numbers work, students would have to be subsidizing athletic department to the tune of 50 million a year. The further idea that we could save 800 dollars a student moving to FCS would require dropping from 40 million dollar football budget (larger than OSU's) to a MAC sized 5 million dollar budget. We aren't spending as much as the University of Texas on football. We are spending like a FCS program as it is. 


Read the article Wes.  He doesn't say $800 goes to football.  He misspoke when he said the majority.  What he should have said was the greatest share.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/11/2011 5:50 PM
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Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
Got to disagree and I would hope that the students who read the post can comprehend what he says as opposed to being mislead because they can't comprehend.  He says majority when he should have said the largest share.  Other than that, his statements are factual and true.  If everyone marched in lockstep behind the "official" position, well, history will tell you what happens then.  And for the record, I think some of you guys overstate the importance of athletics to the masses of college students.  Yes it's a part of the scene as we used to say but it's certainly not the scene to the majority of students here.  I bet you could stop 100 students on the street and the percentage who could tell you who the starting quarterback is or who the head coach is or who could name the 13 teams in the MAC is actually quite low.


He actually said the “vast majority of that goes to football,” which is completely wrong. Look, I’m not an all-or-nothing person on this. I see valid points on both sides. But dealing in lies (“vast majority”) and abstractions (naming the starting quarterback or coach as proof of whether a student supports ICA) does not further one’s case. It just makes you sound polemic and unreasonable.


RJ, I said nothing about support although one one think that if you supported something you'd know the particulars (qb, coach, opponents) of what you support. 
L.C.
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Posted: 11/11/2011 7:42 PM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Read the article Wes.  He doesn't say $800 goes to football.  He misspoke when he said the majority.  What he should have said was the greatest share.

Is even that correct? I see so many different versions of the "facts" posted, I'm not sure what to believe. Trying to piece together data from the various posts I have seen here, and re-assemble them in my head, I'm thinking that total Athletic budget is $24 million, of which $6 million is spent on football. The money comes in the form of $18 million in subsidies, and the other $6 million is from revenues from sports. Of that $5 million comes from football, such that football loses about $900,000, if I recall. That leaves about $1 million for revenue from other sports, most of which is presumably from basketball and volleyball.  If these are not correct, someone please correct me.

Now, if this were a business, you would recognize that if you cancel football, you give up the $5 million in football revenue as well as the $6 million in cost. Thus, the subsidy to football is actually only $900,000 of the $18 million. In order to conclude that the "greatest share" of the subsidy goes to football, you have to make the reverse assumption, that you could cancel football (and thus eliminate the subsidy) without losing the $5 million in football revenue. I don't believe that is true.

The correct measure of the subsidy given to each sport should be computed by taking the costs for that sport and deducting the revenues related to that sport. The greatest share of the Athletic budget is football, but so is the greatest share of the revenue. The actual subsidy to football, however, may be smaller than many other sports, if I am correct.
Last Edited: 11/11/2011 7:43:53 PM by L.C.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 11/11/2011 9:05 PM
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Al, I don't do "man in the street" or other non-scientific surveys.   If we are going to do a survey, we need to do something that is methodologically sound.  No need to be involved in something as vacuous as the now infamous Vetter survey.  
Ohio69
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Posted: 11/11/2011 10:07 PM
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No worries folks.  Steve Hayes nor Alan Swank can get football eliminated or dropped down to non scholarship status.

Back to praising our students.  After watching the pathetic attendance at other MAC ESPN games, I gotta say our students kick ass.  Halftime departures included.

I will add that our older fans kick ass too.

Unfortunately, the Miami game ain't gonna look too good since nobody will be around.




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Posted: 11/12/2011 9:26 AM
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Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
Just did a bit of sloppy Google research that showed Baker Center cost $60 million, resulting in $180 of new student fees per year. Ping cost $24 million and resulted in $216 in new student fees per year. I don't recall that much outrage over either, but I could be wrong. I was around for Ping and remember some mild complaining, but I wasn't around for Baker. I guess my point is that we could get in an argument over a lot of student fees and where they go and whether they're fair to people who don't feel they benefit. It's like taxes.


I have lived in a few fine cities and have paid/benefted from taxes to support zoos, art museums etc.  As I am a paying member of my community so too are students members/citizens of the community that is OU.  There will be expenses for things to support/enhance their community.  I truelly believe competition has significant tangible and intangible benefits to the participant as well as the supporter.  Our military academies are perhaps our finest intitutions of higher learning. They are challenged with creating leaders who monthes after graduation take responsibility for lives. These academies select their cadets from applicants that must show their potential for leadership through demonstrated success in some form of competition as well as their academic excellence. Each and every one insists their cadets participate in and support some type of competition.  It prepares them for life.  In life we compete and keep score.  If we don't prepare our students to compete we are preparing them to fail.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/12/2011 10:53 AM
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Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
No worries folks.  Steve Hayes nor Alan Swank can get football eliminated or dropped down to non scholarship status.



I don't know about professor Hays but that's not what I'm saying at all.  As a season ticket holder for football, basketball and volleyball I enjoy going to all of the games.  It's good entertainment and it's fun to watch young kids play games well.  Win or lose, I appreciate good efforts and well played games.  But in these times of tight budgets and limited resources, we might not be able to continue to support athletics at the level that we have in the past.  When the average student in America leaves college with $24,000 in debt, you have to scratch your head and wonder if we're allocated the resources that the students provide (tuition and fees) in the most appropriate manner.  To me that's the heart of the discussion and what professor Hays continues to ask.  

My guess is that if you asked him if we should eliminate football, his answer would be no.
Ohio69
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Posted: 11/12/2011 12:46 PM
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Alan - That's why I included dropping down in status.  I know others who think we shoud probably drop down in status.   No big deal.  The only way its going to happen is we get pushed out by BCS schools.

But Steve Hays....I've seen him in action in person on stuff like this and he does more harm to his beliefs on athletics and "the administration" than good.
Last Edited: 11/12/2011 12:48:19 PM by Ohio69
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