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Topic: Sickening scandal at Penn State
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MFRONE
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Posted: 7/12/2012 11:32 AM
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After today's report, the NCAA has to throw down the hammer on their football program with the death penalty. It's a horrible situation for the current student athletes who had nothing to do with this but there is no way PSU should have a football program for at least the next 3 years.
Bobcat110alum
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Posted: 7/12/2012 11:40 AM
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I know we all have our opinions on what should happen to Penn State, but I think we all agree what was announced this morning is completely heartbreaking for everyone.  I don't really care what happens to Penn State, as long as there is some justice for those who were the victims of the inaction by those who could have stopped this.  I don't want to argue about the outcome of Penn State anymore 
Bert Presley
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Posted: 7/12/2012 1:11 PM
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It has to be the Death Penalty (which in reality will only make Joe Pa look so much greater). If the NCAA does too little they will be the laughing stock. If they do too much, well there is no too much. The question is what will the Big 10 do? I think it is a very bad situation, and there is really no good that can come from it, but any punishment will likely occur for the 2013 season and not this year.
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Posted: 7/12/2012 2:15 PM
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I won't advocate for what the NCAA will do here. It's just tremendously sad (and I'm sure infuriating in time). I guess we can say Paterno's Grand Experiment ultimately failed. This is a black mark that will cover everything else he did. He did a lot of good, but this completely overshadows all of it.

Now, what can we as a society learn from this? WHY did this happen? What can we do to promote an environment that does not incentivize something like this in the future? Are we asking things of people that encourage them to do things like cover up child molesters?
Bobcat Grad 86
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Posted: 7/12/2012 5:24 PM
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They need a penalty similar to SMU.  There was enough evidence early that the program should have been suspended at the end of the year prior to hiring a new head coach and allowing players to transfer. 
JSF
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Posted: 7/12/2012 10:15 PM
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catfan28
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Posted: 7/12/2012 10:42 PM
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Obviously agree with the egregious and sickening nature of everything going on here. However, is this really the NCAA's place to do this?

When was the last time (if ever) that the NCAA got involved with punishing a school for CRIMINAL activity? As terrible as everything was that happened, no NCAA rules were violated.

Is there any precedent here for the NCAA to act? There may be some examples, but I can't think of any off-hand.
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Posted: 7/12/2012 11:45 PM
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These were not crimes committed by a few undergraduate student athletes.  This was criminal activity by the head football coach (coverup), an assistant football coach (rapes of numerous young boys), the athletic director (cover up), a vice president (cover up) and the president (coverup).  There has never been a criminal situation that so completely enveloped an institution and it all revolved around the university's football program.  This is not just a matter of a few rogue athletes, athletic boosters, or a coach who lied about players exchanging tattoos for memorabilia.  I never thought I'd say this, but this makes the Evil Empire look like St. Peter and Angles by comparison.  If the NCAA doesn't act, it will lose every shred of credibility that it still has.  

As I said in an earlier post, I think the NCAA will deem the boys who were raped by Sandusky as "perspective student athletes."  I believe there is precedent in that regard and that it's actually in an NCAA reg of some sort.  
Last Edited: 7/12/2012 11:55:42 PM by OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/13/2012 1:15 AM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
These were not crimes committed by a few undergraduate student athletes.  This was criminal activity by the head football coach (coverup), an assistant football coach (rapes of numerous young boys), the athletic director (cover up), a vice president (cover up) and the president (coverup).  There has never been a criminal situation that so completely enveloped an institution and it all revolved around the university's football program.  This is not just a matter of a few rogue athletes, athletic boosters, or a coach who lied about players exchanging tattoos for memorabilia.  I never thought I'd say this, but this makes the Evil Empire look like St. Peter and Angles by comparison.  If the NCAA doesn't act, it will lose every shred of credibility that it still has.  

As I said in an earlier post, I think the NCAA will deem the boys who were raped by Sandusky as "perspective student athletes."  I believe there is precedent in that regard and that it's actually in an NCAA reg of some sort.  


Except in that article you linked the 'perspective student athletes' clause only includes thoes who were in 9th grade or older at the time, which none of the victims were.

NCAA wrote:expand_more
A prospective student-athlete is a student who has started classes for the ninth grade. In addition, a student who has not started classes for the ninth grade becomes a prospective student-athlete if the institution provides such an individual (or the individual's relatives or friends) any financial assistance or other benefits that the institution does not provide to prospective students generally.


We're almost advocating for the NCAA to change its rules on the fly.

I guess I need somebody to explain to me why, after everything, the football program must go?  There is seriously no other situation where we would call for the entire program to be shut down because of the actions of a few.  Put this in ANY other context.  If instead of JoePa and Sandusky, this was Jamie Diamond and Dan Degan, would we be calling for the disbandment of JP Morgan?  Hell, why isn't anybody calling for heads to roll at The Second Mile?

As stated by many on here - there is no precedent for this.  The NCAA has never ruled or came down on a school for illegal activities.  Not when players were murdered at Baylor, not when coaches hooked up with players on the team or students at the school.  This isn't a football thing just because some of the people involved were affiliated with the football team.  The NCAA is not the judge, jury and executioner on maters that do not involve college athletics.  For them to levy a punishment would be akin to Obama deciding to post a ruling on the Treyvon Martin case - it's just not in his job description to do so.

Take down JoePa's statue - rename the wing of the library that bears his name - Take down the NC banners that were earned when Sandusky was coach - pray before every game if you must - and please, send everybody who tried to cover this up to jail for life.  But to arbitraily shut down the football program does nobody any good - and it hurts MANY more people then it would help.
Last Edited: 7/13/2012 1:37:50 AM by OrlandoCat
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Posted: 7/13/2012 2:13 AM
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We've still yet to find rock bottom: "The report also exposed failings within Penn State's oversight system, including a scathing assessment of the university's compliance with the federal Clery Act.

The law requires the reporting of certain crimes on campus, including sexual assaults, even if criminal charges are never filed.

Neither the 1998 nor 2001 allegations against Sandusky were reported under the act, Freeh noted. Between 2007 and 2011, only one Clery report was made for the entire campus.

"The Penn State board failed to exercise its oversight functions," Freeh's report states. "Because the board did not demand regular reporting of these risks, Spanier and other senior university officials did not bring up the Sandusky investigations.""

OrlandoCat wrote:expand_more
Hell, why isn't anybody calling for heads to roll at The Second Mile?

Heads rolled. All of them, in fact.

We can go back and forth about the NCAA's role here, but I don't think it's inappropriate for Penn State to decide to take a year or two off. It's pretty clear they don't deserve to have a football program, let alone a top-flight one.
Last Edited: 7/13/2012 2:14:55 AM by JSF
L.C.
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Posted: 7/13/2012 7:07 AM
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I'm trying to get a handle on this question, and I was contemplating the question of what precedent there is. Can anyone give me some examples of situations where the NCAA has acted that did not involve either extra benefits, questions of student eligibility, or recruiting infractions? Off hand, I can't think of any, but maybe there are some.
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Posted: 7/13/2012 7:49 AM
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The fact of the matter is that there were articles in the press dating back to least March if not earlier that highlighted the abuse by Sandusky. The University including the Board of Trustees continued to show apathy about addressing the problems. It was one thing to play the last game, but the University should have had enough class to take a step back and not go to a bowl game.

I respect everyone's opinions on this board, but trying to contrast past NCAA fractions such as ticket, cash and tattoo scams are not even close to Apples to Apples with this situation. When a University President, AD and Head Football Coach allow this to continue, ending the football program for a period of several years is the least punishment that should be considered. I feel bad for players, students and alumni who had nothing to do with this but life is not always fair.

If our University had such a scandal, I would be embarrassed to buy into "The Games Must Go On" argument.

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Posted: 7/13/2012 8:03 AM
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Again, I think the NCAA should grant any student athlete at Penn State the ability to transfer out without losing any eligibility or having to sit out a year. It avoids having to create new rules to impose the death penalty while potentially achieving much of the same result. If I were a student athlete, I would not want to be associated with the Penn State stigma.
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Posted: 7/13/2012 8:28 AM
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Bobcat Grad 86 wrote:expand_more

The fact of the matter is that there were articles in the press dating back to least March if not earlier that highlighted the abuse by Sandusky. The University including the Board of Trustees continued to show apathy about addressing the problems. It was one thing to play the last game, but the University should have had enough class to take a step back and not go to a bowl game.

I respect everyone's opinions on this board, but trying to contrast past NCAA fractions such as ticket, cash and tattoo scams are not even close to Apples to Apples with this situation. When a University President, AD and Head Football Coach allow this to continue, ending the football program for a period of several years is the least punishment that should be considered. I feel bad for players, students and alumni who had nothing to do with this but life is not always fair.

If our University had such a scandal, I would be embarrassed to buy into "The Games Must Go On" argument.



+1.  Hopefully there will be decisive action to resolve the matter without ongoing controversy.  I am with you on the level of least considered action.  This is not a case to drag out.
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Posted: 7/13/2012 8:49 AM
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JSF wrote:expand_more
We've still yet to find rock bottom: "The report also exposed failings within Penn State's oversight system, including a scathing assessment of the university's compliance with the federal Clery Act.

The law requires the reporting of certain crimes on campus, including sexual assaults, even if criminal charges are never filed.

Neither the 1998 nor 2001 allegations against Sandusky were reported under the act, Freeh noted. Between 2007 and 2011, only one Clery report was made for the entire campus.

"The Penn State board failed to exercise its oversight functions," Freeh's report states. "Because the board did not demand regular reporting of these risks, Spanier and other senior university officials did not bring up the Sandusky investigations.""

Hell, why isn't anybody calling for heads to roll at The Second Mile?

Heads rolled. All of them, in fact.

We can go back and forth about the NCAA's role here, but I don't think it's inappropriate for Penn State to decide to take a year or two off. It's pretty clear they don't deserve to have a football program, let alone a top-flight one.


You mentioned the nail in the coffin for Penn State, the Clery Act. The NCAA almost cannot act until the federal government is done with them, because in reality, the harshest penalties the Federal Government can wield might render any NCAA decision mute. That penalty is stripping federal aid from the University, that would basically be the death penalty to the UNIVERSITY let alone the football program.
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Posted: 7/13/2012 9:57 AM
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The death penalty should not be an option. If Baylor didn't get it when one of their players deserved the actual death penalty, then Penn State won't get it. The NCAA has stated they won't do it again because of what happened to SMU. This would be a death penalty case if the NCAA knew about it earlier and was investigating them. Penn State was compliant once everything happened. They weren't belligerent like SMU who refused to change. They can do scholarship reductions, Bowl bans, or getting rid of the non-conference schedule. Those would be more appropriate than the death penalty. Yes there was loss of institutional control, but that doesn't automatically mean death penalty. The death penalty is for REPEAT offenders who refuse to follow NCAA rules.
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Posted: 7/13/2012 10:43 AM
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catfan28 wrote:expand_more
Obviously agree with the egregious and sickening nature of everything going on here. However, is this really the NCAA's place to do this?

When was the last time (if ever) that the NCAA got involved with punishing a school for CRIMINAL activity? As terrible as everything was that happened, no NCAA rules were violated.

Is there any precedent here for the NCAA to act? There may be some examples, but I can't think of any off-hand.


There is no precedent - there has never been a case of this magnitude, or a cover-up of the magnitude.  That doesn't mean that the NCAA should look away and look for someone else to hand down punishment.   Yes it was a criminal activity, but there was also a cover-up in place to save the football program.  How can people say that the football program shouldn't be punished?  Every action (or lack there of) from janitors to coaches to adminstrators was with the intent of one thing, and one thing only: to protect the football program. 

That being said I don't disagree that there should be Federal charges and actions, as well, and my guess is that a death penalty by the NCAA for the football program will pale in comparison to what awaits the university in general.  It doesn't mean the NCAA shouldn't do it, though. 

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Posted: 7/13/2012 11:12 AM
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OrlandoCat wrote:expand_more
These were not crimes committed by a few undergraduate student athletes.  This was criminal activity by the head football coach (coverup), an assistant football coach (rapes of numerous young boys), the athletic director (cover up), a vice president (cover up) and the president (coverup).  There has never been a criminal situation that so completely enveloped an institution and it all revolved around the university's football program.  This is not just a matter of a few rogue athletes, athletic boosters, or a coach who lied about players exchanging tattoos for memorabilia.  I never thought I'd say this, but this makes the Evil Empire look like St. Peter and Angles by comparison.  If the NCAA doesn't act, it will lose every shred of credibility that it still has.  

As I said in an earlier post, I think the NCAA will deem the boys who were raped by Sandusky as "perspective student athletes."  I believe there is precedent in that regard and that it's actually in an NCAA reg of some sort.  


Except in that article you linked the 'perspective student athletes' clause only includes thoes who were in 9th grade or older at the time, which none of the victims were.

A prospective student-athlete is a student who has started classes for the ninth grade. In addition, a student who has not started classes for the ninth grade becomes a prospective student-athlete if the institution provides such an individual (or the individual's relatives or friends) any financial assistance or other benefits that the institution does not provide to prospective students generally.


We're almost advocating for the NCAA to change its rules on the fly.

I guess I need somebody to explain to me why, after everything, the football program must go?  There is seriously no other situation where we would call for the entire program to be shut down because of the actions of a few.  Put this in ANY other context.  If instead of JoePa and Sandusky, this was Jamie Diamond and Dan Degan, would we be calling for the disbandment of JP Morgan?  Hell, why isn't anybody calling for heads to roll at The Second Mile?

As stated by many on here - there is no precedent for this.  The NCAA has never ruled or came down on a school for illegal activities.  Not when players were murdered at Baylor, not when coaches hooked up with players on the team or students at the school.  This isn't a football thing just because some of the people involved were affiliated with the football team.  The NCAA is not the judge, jury and executioner on maters that do not involve college athletics.  For them to levy a punishment would be akin to Obama deciding to post a ruling on the Treyvon Martin case - it's just not in his job description to do so.

Take down JoePa's statue - rename the wing of the library that bears his name - Take down the NC banners that were earned when Sandusky was coach - pray before every game if you must - and please, send everybody who tried to cover this up to jail for life.  But to arbitraily shut down the football program does nobody any good - and it hurts MANY more people then it would help.


You mention JP Morgan, but what about Enron?  The entire organization paid for the actions of a few.  That's beside the point, though.  You argue that the actions of a few shouldn't cause an entire program to be dismanted.  Well, I argue that it wasn't the actions of just a few.  It was the actions of many:  administrators, athletic director, head coach, assistant coaches, police, and even janitors.  To say it's "not a football thing just because some of the people involved were affiliated with the football team" is astonishing to me.  Why do you think the cover-up happened?  Nobody did a thing in order to protect the football program. 

"But to arbitraily shut down the football program does nobody any good".  Yeah, I do feel sorry for current players who would suffer, but what kind of lesson is it to say go ahead and play?  What if those young men, when out working in the real world, come across some situation in which they need to do the right thing?  While it would be a tough pill to swallow for them, the lessons learned that there are strict consequences for not taking action would last a lifetime.  Also, a message needs to be sent to all football programs across the country.  PSU is not the only college town where football rules, and those around it will do anything for its success.  This is a wake-up call for everyone.   
Last Edited: 7/13/2012 11:17:19 AM by Maryland Bobcat
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/13/2012 12:32 PM
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Maryland Bobcat wrote:expand_more
 "But to arbitraily shut down the football program does nobody any good".  Yeah, I do feel sorry for current players who would suffer, but what kind of lesson is it to say go ahead and play?  What if those young men, when out working in the real world, come across some situation in which they need to do the right thing?  While it would be a tough pill to swallow for them, the lessons learned that there are strict consequences for not taking action would last a lifetime.  Also, a message needs to be sent to all football programs across the country.  PSU is not the only college town where football rules, and those around it will do anything for its success.  This is a wake-up call for everyone.   


+1
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/13/2012 12:59 PM
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OK, it's only bleacher report, so it's just one random blogger's opinion, but every once in awhile BR is ahead of the curve.  This just might be one of those cases: Penn State Should Cancel 2012 Football Season.

Interesting concluding quote from this article:

"In order to begin to rebuild its reputation, Penn State must show that football is not paramount above all. Suspending it now after how powerful it has been is the only way to do that.

It'll be a long, hard road to recovery for Penn State, but it is possible. At the very least, the fans, players and administration will be able to sing these words of their Alma Mater hymn together and mean it:

'May no act of ours bring shame.'"

I did not know that that was a line in the PSU alma mater.  I find it somewhat ironic.

 

 

Last Edited: 7/13/2012 1:06:38 PM by OhioCatFan
L.C.
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Posted: 7/13/2012 2:22 PM
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I'm not convinced this is a matter for the NCAA to deal with. That doesn't mean that I think they should go unpunished, just that I question whether the NCAA is the right organization to do it.It might or might not be, depending on what the scope of their authority is.

I do agree with the Bleacher report article. PSU should voluntarily take action against themselves. I actually tend to think that they should cancel the 2013 season, though, rather than 2012, as that would allow teams time to schedule alternative games.
Last Edited: 7/20/2012 1:08:28 PM by L.C.
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 7/13/2012 2:29 PM
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NM
Last Edited: 7/13/2012 2:33:51 PM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 7/13/2012 3:11 PM
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I agree Penn State needs to drop football for a couple of years, and it needs to do it voluntarily, not because it is being forced to by the NCAA.

football cannot be Too Big To Fail.
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Posted: 7/13/2012 3:25 PM
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http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8163189/penn-state-cannot-allowed-football-team

"Most of all, allowing Penn State football to survive and profit -- as if this were only about a couple of kids who cheated on an entrance exam -- says that all of the rhetoric about accountability and protecting children was just exhaust, that compared to the importance of football, the university didn't care then and doesn't care now about children being raped on its premises. It is to retain the culture of intimidation and invincibility that has brought Penn State to this place. If a massive institutional failure that allowed young boys to be sexually molested on campus does not constitute reasonable cause to terminate the program and force true reflection, true change and true reform, nothing can legitimately deserve that penalty. The fear of Janitor B to come forward as a whistleblower in the face of power would be justified. Penn State football would indeed be invincible."

Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 7/13/2012 4:24 PM
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It's a shame how far Howard Bryant, along with Jeff Macgregor, is often buried within the ESPN.com website while future Branson comedian Rick Reilly beams at us from the front. Thanks for the link.
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