Ohio Football Topic
Topic: The Death of the PAC 12...
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Mike Johnson
8/4/2023 11:08 PM
In 1980 our family had grown to 3 kids and I'd not yet donated dollars to the OU Foundation. That year the company at which I was then working introduced a 2 for 1 matching gift program. Lynne and I quickly agreed that we couldn't fail to take advantage, and I wrote my first check to the OU Foundation. I've donated every year since. But I'd not designated any gift to OU athletics. Jim Grobe's resurrection of the football program changed that. By 1996 the autoimmune disease that would eventually take Lynne's life had struck. Climbing stairs was becoming increasingly difficult. And the drugs she was taking to remain alive didn't mix well with prolonged exposure to the sun's rays. So I bought into the Tower Club. After she died, I continued to renew my two seats there.

Now, think of the following:
* Increasing evidence of the damage to brains of too many football-related concussions. (My best friend from age 3 and a high school football teammate suffered several concussions on the gridiron. Today his dementia has worsened such that his wife had to have him placed in a rest home. Cause and effect?)
* The seemingly never-ceasing expansion of conferences.
* The easing of transfer rules.
* The effects of the transfer portals.
* The introduction of NILs.

To me, college football increasingly resembles the NFL which I've not followed for the last 20 or so years. My decades-long zest for college football has diminished significantly. I dropped my Tower Club seats two seasons ago. I've not seen a home game since Frank stepped down.

Oh, last year's division title and bowl victory had me feeling good for the coaching staff and players. But those achievements didn't renew that former zest.

As long as I am breathing and of sound mind, I'll continue supporting my alma mater, just not the football program.
Last Edited: 8/4/2023 11:10:12 PM by Mike Johnson
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greencat
8/5/2023 9:55 AM
There has been talk about a Vandy/Duke/Tulane/Rice/etc league for a long time but in today's $$$-hungry/ESPN dominated college sports environment, that no longer even looks like it's worth chatting about. I even once heard Fiami mentioned in one of those chats.

To be in full disclosure: my daughter is finishing up a masters in global biology at Fiami. No matter how we detest them in sports, it really is a good academic school. Not Duke/Vandy/Rice but still pretty good.
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Flat Tire
8/5/2023 3:37 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Is there an opportunity here for the MAC to invite some regional P5 schools into the conference for non-revenue sports? For instance, if Purdue doesn't want to send their baseball, volleyball or field hockey team all across the continent for games, would it be possible for the MAC to add them for these sports? If a few of these programs wanted to do that the MAC could become quite strong in these non-revenue sports. If I recall, we have had a few such affiliations in the past. Wasn't Kentucky in the MAC once for one of these sports? Just a question. Any potential merit here?

I doubt if that would happen. Marshall spent a lot of money sending non-revenue sports to Texas for games or matches while they were a member of CUSA. I would think the larger conferences would have the money to do it if Marshall did it.

The smaller schools have no real control over what the P5 schools do with their athletic programs. The smaller schools will just have to sit back and see what develops.

The MAC and SBC should weather the storm if their members decide to stay together. It will be interesting to see how the AAC reacts and I think CUSA maybe in serious trouble. With inflation being forcasted for a few more years, college sports at smaller schools may be in trouble.
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GoCats105
8/7/2023 12:46 PM
The stories that continue to come out of this situation will make an awesome documentary some day.

- Utah, Arizona and Arizona State are going to the Big 12. It's possible Oregon State and Washington (OR SAN DIEGO STATE) will follow to get the conference to 18 members.

- Cal and Stanford talking to the ACC

- Per Brett McMurphy, most of the remaining PAC-12 members were committed to staying together, but after George Kliavkoff's media presentation they were full steam ahead looking elsewhere. One PAC-12 president contacted the Big 12 and asked if they would take 9 teams! (not including Oregon State and Washington State)

If I'm a Beavers fan this morning I'm pissed. I hope they go 12-0 this year and ruin it for everyone.
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Victory
8/7/2023 2:20 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
The stories that continue to come out of this situation will make an awesome documentary some day.

- Utah, Arizona and Arizona State are going to the Big 12. It's possible Oregon State and Washington (OR SAN DIEGO STATE) will follow to get the conference to 18 members.

- Cal and Stanford talking to the ACC

- Per Brett McMurphy, most of the remaining PAC-12 members were committed to staying together, but after George Kliavkoff's media presentation they were full steam ahead looking elsewhere. One PAC-12 president contacted the Big 12 and asked if they would take 9 teams! (not including Oregon State and Washington State)

If I'm a Beavers fan this morning I'm pissed. I hope they go 12-0 this year and ruin it for everyone.
I have heard that the Big Ten and SEC were waiting for the rights deal in the ACC to expire to then going to war about dividing up Miami, Clemson, North Carolina, and Florida State without the massive exit fees. 20 teams is about as manageable as 18 so it sounds like that was the long term plan with Washington and Oregon going to the Big Ten. Also, trying to force Notre Dame's hand because once they are at 20 there is probably no more room left. The the Big XII took advantage of the media rights deal and talking to Pac 12 schools and were making a play for Washington and Oregon and forced the Big Ten's hand.

I know that Cal and Stanford are talking with the ACC. It seems like if the Big XII is trying to keep up, and if the B10 and SEC aren't done that they wouldn't stop here either. Maybe they don't want to expand so much so fast. They just added teams for 2023. But you'd think that what they need now as a mostly western conference is a major presence in California. Cal and Stanford are not in the lower end of existing power 5 conferences in TV viewership, are in a really large market in a huge state, and Stanford if the most successful program in non-revenue sports and Cal is probably in the top 5. Someone will eventually want them. The question is what do they do in the mean time.

WSU and OSU on the other hand are going to be stuck in the MWC.
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M.D.W.S.T
8/7/2023 3:42 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
The stories that continue to come out of this situation will make an awesome documentary some day.
How badly Larry Scott fumbled this is already wild.

10 years ago, when they did not want to add Texas and Oklahoma:

"We could have expanded, but the deal didn't make any sense at the end of the day for us, especially given the position that we are in," Scott said. "There is a very high bar. It's hard to imagine very many scenarios for our conference to expand because the bar is so high."
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Buckeye to Bobcat
8/7/2023 4:21 PM
M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
The stories that continue to come out of this situation will make an awesome documentary some day.
How badly Larry Scott fumbled this is already wild.

10 years ago, when they did not want to add Texas and Oklahoma:

"We could have expanded, but the deal didn't make any sense at the end of the day for us, especially given the position that we are in," Scott said. "There is a very high bar. It's hard to imagine very many scenarios for our conference to expand because the bar is so high."
As I said before, Michael Crow (along with who he gave power to in Larry Scott) deserves every ounce of blame on this realignment. Even after getting accepted into the Big 12, the arrogance of Crow and Ray Anderson is astonishing. I would be telling ASU fire those two or go kick rocks.
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GoCats105
8/7/2023 5:46 PM
M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
The stories that continue to come out of this situation will make an awesome documentary some day.
How badly Larry Scott fumbled this is already wild.

10 years ago, when they did not want to add Texas and Oklahoma:

"We could have expanded, but the deal didn't make any sense at the end of the day for us, especially given the position that we are in," Scott said. "There is a very high bar. It's hard to imagine very many scenarios for our conference to expand because the bar is so high."
I'm not even sure you can blame Scott for the Texas/OU thing. In hindsight now in 2023, sure it looks like a bad play. Texas wanted their own exclusive network (The Longhorn Network) and the PAC-12 balked at the idea. This is the same reason Texas A&M went to the SEC and why Nebraska went to the Big Ten. Nobody wanted any one team in the league to be more important than the other. After the 4 teams left the Big 12 (Missouri, A&M, Nebraska and Colorado), the rest of the schools in the league had no choice but to embrace Texas' demands.

Also, given what we know now about the academic stance Stanford, Cal and partially UW had taken, I wonder if they even thought those two weren't up to snuff academically. UT probably is, but I don't know enough about Oklahoma's academic profile to have an opinion.

Scott's ultimate failure will be the decision to keep the PAC-12 Network exclusive and distributed solely by the conference instead of negotiating deals with TV Providers. Once DirecTV and Time Warner/Spectrum weren't involved in distributing the PAC-12 Network all bets were off. They lost more than half the country with that play. Not to mention the decision to house the conference offices in downtown San Francisco.

And as BtoB mentioned, the P12 presidents letting it slide as long as it did is inexcusable. The disparity in revenue was well known, dating back to as early as 2016 when Jon Wilner first reported on it. They had 7 years to figure this out and couldn't do it.
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M.D.W.S.T
8/8/2023 9:36 AM
We need to join with the American for the ultimate G5 conference.

Mid-American Conference.

It's destiny.
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OUcats82
8/8/2023 11:49 AM
M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
We need to join with the American for the ultimate G5 conference.

Mid-American Conference.

It's destiny.
Maybe even add the remains and go all in on Mid-American Conference USA?
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M.D.W.S.T
8/8/2023 5:05 PM
OUcats82 wrote:expand_more
We need to join with the American for the ultimate G5 conference.

Mid-American Conference.

It's destiny.
Maybe even add the remains and go all in on Mid-American Conference USA?
Genius.
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GoCats105
8/8/2023 5:39 PM
M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
We need to join with the American for the ultimate G5 conference.

Mid-American Conference.

It's destiny.
Maybe even add the remains and go all in on Mid-American Conference USA?
Genius.
Boys you're missing the boat.

BIG MAC
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OUcats82
8/9/2023 3:20 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
We need to join with the American for the ultimate G5 conference.

Mid-American Conference.

It's destiny.
Maybe even add the remains and go all in on Mid-American Conference USA?
Genius.
Boys you're missing the boat.

BIG MAC
Ohhhhhhhh!
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greencat
8/9/2023 6:21 PM
A real shame WKU and MTSU couldn't get in the MAC due to MT's cold feet.

It would have been a good start on a new MAC_South division and opened up coverage for the MAC in the Nashville sports media market. With Nashville getting a new 2.7 billion dollar indoor football stadium for the titanics, a nice place for a MAC championship game in (maybe or maybe not) better weather than Michigan. If both stadiums are inside, what is the difference? One is Nashville and one is Detroit.
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OUcats82
8/10/2023 10:07 AM
greencat wrote:expand_more
A real shame WKU and MTSU couldn't get in the MAC due to MT's cold feet.

It would have been a good start on a new MAC_South division and opened up coverage for the MAC in the Nashville sports media market. With Nashville getting a new 2.7 billion dollar indoor football stadium for the titanics, a nice place for a MAC championship game in (maybe or maybe not) better weather than Michigan. If both stadiums are inside, what is the difference? One is Nashville and one is Detroit.
I have no idea what, if anything, the MAC has going on in their war room as the latest round of conference shuffling goes on. If they have not yet given up on the idea of still having MTSU and WKU join I would be fully supportive of this.

One of my favorite aspects of the MAC is the stability of conference members but I also think that some new blood could be fun.

The new Titans stadium looks pretty amazing and I wouldn't mind seeing the Bobcats play there at some point-although it would be more likely to see the Bengals there.
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M.D.W.S.T
8/10/2023 1:21 PM
OUcats82 wrote:expand_more
A real shame WKU and MTSU couldn't get in the MAC due to MT's cold feet.

It would have been a good start on a new MAC_South division and opened up coverage for the MAC in the Nashville sports media market. With Nashville getting a new 2.7 billion dollar indoor football stadium for the titanics, a nice place for a MAC championship game in (maybe or maybe not) better weather than Michigan. If both stadiums are inside, what is the difference? One is Nashville and one is Detroit.
I have no idea what, if anything, the MAC has going on in their war room as the latest round of conference shuffling goes on. If they have not yet given up on the idea of still having MTSU and WKU join I would be fully supportive of this.

One of my favorite aspects of the MAC is the stability of conference members but I also think that some new blood could be fun.

The new Titans stadium looks pretty amazing and I wouldn't mind seeing the Bobcats play there at some point-although it would be more likely to see the Bengals there.
I was listening to Pardon My Take on Barstool the other day and they were talking about the MAC being most stable conference in the country. If you love tradition, then MAC football is for you. So it's definitely a perception - that is true - but also out there.

I think now is honestly the time to maybe make a run to add some new teams. Just double down on the strength and stability of the conference.

We can't offer you $30M a year, but we can offer you a lot of mid-week ESPN coverage, growing popularity among the Barstools and podcasts of the like and the piece of mind that your membership isn't looking to go to the SEC every week. For a G5 program that's as much as you can hope for these days.
Last Edited: 8/10/2023 1:22:36 PM by M.D.W.S.T
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
9/22/2023 8:26 AM
This is the first time I've seen this idea floated by anybody connected to college sports: https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38457319...

But it's a good one, and schools like Ohio should be putting all of their might behind it. The alternative is being completely shut out, to the point that I think other threads where we're discussing our non-conference schedules in 4 years are completely irrelevant.
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L.C.
9/22/2023 8:54 AM
The problem with promotion/relegation is that "P5" status or "G5" status is based solely on the size of the media market, and has little to do with the quality of the team. To get anyone interested in the idea, you'd have to push the concept that, while each G5 market area is small, taken together, they add up to a sizeable market. A promotion/relegation system would presumably increase support and interest for all G5 teams, based on the idea that, if their team had a really good year, they might get promoted, and be able to play with the power teams.

All G5 teams would love the idea, I'm sure. Resistance, of course, will come from lower tier P5 teams, who will not like the idea that they might be relegated. Another problem is going to be the general resistance to change, the the favoring of the status quo. A third issue will be the difficulty of scheduling, because promotion or relegation is going to mean having to entirely change the schedule on short notice. Finally, such a system would disrupt the revenue model. How you are you going to handle paid games, etc? Will top teams still be able to have 7-8 home games?
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TWT
9/22/2023 9:06 AM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
This is the first time I've seen this idea floated by anybody connected to college sports: https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38457319...

But it's a good one, and schools like Ohio should be putting all of their might behind it. The alternative is being completely shut out, to the point that I think other threads where we're discussing our non-conference schedules in 4 years are completely irrelevant.
That would be a good idea for the MAC. Have the Top 6 MAC football schools in one division and the bottom 6 in the other division. Then take the top 2 of the conference to Detroit. AD's I think like the current divisions for travel purposes.
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Turney13
9/22/2023 9:26 AM
Wouldn't it be more like the MAC is the lower division of the Big Ten? And then the last two place teams in the Big Ten drop down and the top two teams from the MAC move up every year.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
9/22/2023 10:41 AM
Turney13 wrote:expand_more
Wouldn't it be more like the MAC is the lower division of the Big Ten? And then the last two place teams in the Big Ten drop down and the top two teams from the MAC move up every year.
This is what I'm thinking.

Though realistically, the end state of conference realignment in college football is probably no conferences, and something more akin to the Premier League. The top ~40 teams competing nationally with an expanded playoff at they end.

If you're not part of that group, you should be turning to find a way to become part of it. And promotion/relegation at least provides a path.

It also, for what it's worth, makes European soccer leagues much more interesting. Far more teams play meaningful games.
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bobcatsquared
9/22/2023 10:46 AM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
This is what I'm thinking.

Though realistically, the end state of conference realignment in college football is probably no conferences, and something more akin to the Premier League. The top ~40 teams competing nationally with an expanded playoff at they end.
Except the Premier League, like most (all?) of the top European soccer leagues, does not have a post-season playoff.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
9/22/2023 10:57 AM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
This is what I'm thinking.

Though realistically, the end state of conference realignment in college football is probably no conferences, and something more akin to the Premier League. The top ~40 teams competing nationally with an expanded playoff at they end.
Except the Premier League, like most (all?) of the top European soccer leagues, does not have a post-season playoff.
Yes, but in soccer you can have a true league table because you can play everybody home and away.

That's too many games for football, so the playoff is an obvious solution.
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L.C.
9/22/2023 11:34 AM
Campus Flow wrote:expand_more
That would be a good idea for the MAC. Have the Top 6 MAC football schools in one division and the bottom 6 in the other division. Then take the top 2 of the conference to Detroit. AD's I think like the current divisions for travel purposes.

Relegation would be an awful idea in the MAC. It would do two bad things, and accomplish nothing useful. It would rule six teams out of the MACC from the start (and reducing their fan interest and attendance), and it would eliminate the Championship game. The MAC is a small, very balance conference. Almost every game is close, and in some years a totally unexpected teams win the MACC. In 2019, CMU was a consensus pick to finish dead last:
https://stassen.com/preseason/consensus/2019.html#mac

They surprised everyone, and played in the the MACC game. In a relegation system, they would have been eliminated before the season even started.
Last Edited: 9/22/2023 5:10:05 PM by L.C.
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GoCats105
9/22/2023 5:59 PM
Today it was released that the Big 12 and ESPN enticed Colorado to leave the PAC 12 with a signing bonus.

ESPN had originally offered the P12 $30 million to stay together and some P12 presidents were informed by their "advisors" that the number was too low. P12 goes back to ESPN and says they want $50. ESPN cuts off all contact.

And then they turn around and do that.

Just incredible stuff.
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