What's your point here, exactly? This is a thread about the existential threat that potential employment of college athletes poses to D2/D3 colleges. Not just to their athletic departments, but to the schools themselves. Because as others have pointed out, D3 schools often sell players on a dream and overstock athletics programs with athletes paying full tuition.

And you think that these schools are going to ignore that existential threat and risk , in some cases, their existence because they don't want weight training to be voluntary?

Complete nonsense. If D3 athletics can't reasonably be run as an amateur endeavor that doesn't run afoul of labor law despite the fact that the athletes 1) make no money, and 2) actually PAY the schools 80k a year, then the people running athletics departments at these schools are idiots. It's not that hard.

I think that the thing that the question of whether the players are employees will ultimately be tied to who controls the program. Compare current programs at any level to a club sport. Who controls the scheduling? Who handles the money? Who arranges transportation? I personally think that, in order to avoid the employee situation, of necessity, the past may become the future. In order to avoid the players being employees, we may see schools going back to a club model. Remember, that's how it all began. Go back and look at schedules from the 1890's. In 1894, Ohio had no coach, and played only one game, against Marietta. In 1895 and 1896 they played Parker High School. They played games against the likes of Parkersburg Athletic Club, the Deaf & Dumb Institute, and Chillicothe YMCA, and the schedule frequently included high schools until as late at 1908. The number of games varied widely by year, with, for example, nine games in 1897, but only four in 1898 and 1899. Even as late at 1918 they had a season with only four games. It didn't really settle down into a nine game season every year until 1928.

At the division I level, there is too much money involved to ever go back to a full club model, but at D2 and D3, is that also true? If the main point of D2 and D3 sports is to boost enrollment, then there is a lot of money at play, there, too, but if the players are employees, the money flow would be in the opposite direction, and the current model would immediately be non-viable. If they go back to a club model, they could still attract high school students who want to continue to play, and thus boost enrollment. It would probable not be as effective for them as it is now, but it wouldn't lead to a reverse money flow, where they have to pay the players.


This. They will do whatever is necessary to both allow players to play (and enroll), but to not make them an employee.

That’s a great point.

I was also thinking smaller schools could lump it into the university as a program. Say, just for example, the department of baseball. And you would graduate with a minor in that program.

I’m sure people will get creative. Hope so, anyway.

Btw, Birmingham Southern’s endowment was $51 million ($53m operating) and it closed. Tiffin’s is $18m.

I dunno, man. The more you all make this point, the more I fail to see what's worth salvaging here. On the one hand, you've got folks who rue the changes to college sports because amateurism is dead -- and on the other, people are saying that actual amateurism isn't a draw for the kids, and nobody is interested in glorified intramurals. Everything I know about Tiffin I have learned from you -- so far from an expert -- but if their continued solvency relies on selling snake oil to kids and getting them to pay massive amounts of money for it, I'm not sure what to say, exactly.

I mean, here's Tiffin's notable alumni list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffin_University . They're not churning out pro athletes left and right.

If a D3 school which makes basically zero revenue from sports and should be the very definition of amateur athletics thinks the only way to operate an athletic program that actually serves the interests of the university is to pretend they're a path to the pros, the rot in NCAA athletics is worse than I thought. And I thought it was pretty bad already.

That press release is two years old so Tiffin made that decision prior to the recent changes. It also mentions competing in a conference with Alderson-Broaddus. Alderson-Broaddus is one of the colleges that shut down.

I was recruited to play basketball at the now defunct Urbana University back when they were NAIA. They later leapfrogged D3 and went straight to D2. While I was being recruited, the whole sales pitch was that virtually everyone on campus played a sport, which I thought was strange. I don't remember the price tag for tuition, but I do remember having to take tests while on my official visit because they wanted to see where I was at academically and how much they could knock off the price tag - I think they eventually offered a half-tuition academic scholarship, but the whole hook was getting to play basketball for another 4 years.

I didn't end up going there for a variety of reasons, but I will say the experience was very eye-opening. I'm not sure I'd call it exploitative, but it does border on unethical.

2021:
https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/archdeacon-central... /

2024:
https://www.daytondailynews.com/local/central-state-unive... /

Morris Brown is another one. They jumped up to D1 in all sports about 20 years ago and spent a ton on money in the process. They suspended all athletic programs a year or two later to avoid bankruptcy and I don't believe that they ever restarted.

Sure LC that's fine, and I agree with your thoughts on physical wellness and the merits of being active. But you're kidding yourself if you think that is their motivation at these schools. They are exploiting the kids' desire to continue playing their sport into making a college/financial decision they would not otherwise make. As mentioned, the roster sizes are massive, and many quit after year 1 after the school already hooked the student onto campus. I've heard stories of them actively promoting kids to quit, so they can make room for another freshman recruit to sucker into campus. Comparing a physical activity requirement at a public school to the recruiting practices of very expensive private universities is a big reach. The motivations behind them could not be more apart.

Tiffin is D2, btw.

There are high school programs here in Ohio that bring in more than many colleges. Are they too going to have to pay the players?

OHSAA is next target.