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Topic: U MASS football under attack...
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brucecuth
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Posted: 12/13/2013 2:41 PM
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Alan Swank
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Posted: 12/13/2013 2:51 PM
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Never heard of playing home games 93 miles away in a pro stadium.  Hopefully having three games on campus next year will spark some fan interest.
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Posted: 12/13/2013 3:35 PM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Never heard of playing home games 93 miles away in a pro stadium.  Hopefully having three games on campus next year will spark some fan interest.


They're guaranteed to have fewer empty seats for those games.
The Optimist
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Posted: 12/13/2013 3:37 PM
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Reading that article, it was pretty clear who understood what they were talking about and who has no understanding of the subject and is making noise in an attempt to further some other agenda.
 

It is simply too soon to evaluate this project for UMass. It could still go either way... Don't really see how their dismal seasons so far change anything. If anyone was promising or expecting a miracle right off the bat, that was dumb. From what I understood, they started this with a little longer timeframe in mind.

 

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Posted: 12/13/2013 3:58 PM
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If someone at UMass really believed they would/could draw large crowds to Gillette, they should be relieved of their duties.  It was/is never gonna happen.

On a related note, I just read Charles Ping's book about his years in Athens.  If Dr. Ping had his druthers, the MAC would be a I-AA league at best today.  He repeatedly tried to talk other league presidents out of raising their investment in varsity athletics.  Several very enlightening passages in the book with respect to intercollegiate athletics.  He wrote that Ohio AD Bill Rohr told him he was "naive" when it came to the need for financial investment in a sports program.  Rohr then quit as AD and returned (much to Ping's dismay) as a university trustee a few years later. 


Ohio69
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Posted: 12/13/2013 4:53 PM
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UMass is going to play Amherst next year?!  That's a division 3 school.  Good grief.  What a joke.  Amherst plays only 8 games per year.  Against the likes of Bowdoin and Wesleyan.  Seriously?....  This would be like Ohio playing Oberlin.  Wow.

UMass made the move too late.  The Big East died.  They ain't going anywhere. 
L.C.
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Posted: 12/13/2013 5:18 PM
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Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
UMass is going to play Amherst next year?!  That's a division 3 school.  Good grief.  What a joke.  Amherst plays only 8 games per year.  Against the likes of Bowdoin and Wesleyan.  Seriously?....  This would be like Ohio playing Oberlin.  Wow.....

The name of the school we are talking about is "U Mass-Amherst". They aren't playing Amherst. They will be playing games in their home stadium, which of course, is in the town of Amherst, Mass.


SBH wrote:expand_more
On a related note, I just read Charles Ping's book about his years in Athens.  If Dr. Ping had his druthers, the MAC would be a I-AA league at best today.  He repeatedly tried to talk other league presidents out of raising their investment in varsity athletics.  Several very enlightening passages in the book with respect to intercollegiate athletics.

Opinions on the importance of intercollegiate athletics ebb and flow with time. In today's world no schools are going from FBS to FCS, but rather they are going the other way because FCS schools lose as more on their football program, and halve less to show for it. I can see the argument for eliminating the program entirely, or dropping it down to Division II or III, but going to FCS seems to make little sense these days.

One thing has changed, though, in the last 20-30 years. Universities that are successful at football also have been successful at stimulating general giving, so those universities are prospering, while schools with no football programs have struggled much more financially. Personally I think that's terrible, but I see it in my own family. Neither of my brothers sends money to their alma matter. Instead they send it to the school whose football team they watch.

There are two Universities and a College in my home town. The college has no football, while one University is Division II and the other is in B1G. The one in B1G is expanding as a phenomenal rate - there are cranes and new buildings everywhere. Neither of the others have built a new building in the last 30 years that I am aware of.
Last Edited: 12/13/2013 5:22:22 PM by L.C.
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Posted: 12/13/2013 5:19 PM
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Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
UMass is going to play Amherst next year?!  That's a division 3 school.  Good grief.  What a joke.  Amherst plays only 8 games per year.  Against the likes of Bowdoin and Wesleyan.  Seriously?....  This would be like Ohio playing Oberlin.  Wow.

UMass made the move too late.  The Big East died.  They ain't going anywhere. 

UMASS is located in Amherst, MA, and they will play three games there next year, with three remaining in Gillette/Foxboro.

 
Last Edited: 12/13/2013 5:19:27 PM by D.A.
D.A.
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Posted: 12/13/2013 5:37 PM
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SBH wrote:expand_more
If someone at UMass really believed they would/could draw large crowds to Gillette, they should be relieved of their duties.  It was/is never gonna happen.

On a related note, I just read Charles Ping's book about his years in Athens.  If Dr. Ping had his druthers, the MAC would be a I-AA league at best today.  He repeatedly tried to talk other league presidents out of raising their investment in varsity athletics.  Several very enlightening passages in the book with respect to intercollegiate athletics.  He wrote that Ohio AD Bill Rohr told him he was "naive" when it came to the need for financial investment in a sports program.  Rohr then quit as AD and returned (much to Ping's dismay) as a university trustee a few years later. 



Dr. Ping was my President, and I had high value for what he did for the university, however I never shared his opinion of the role ICA can play for a broader university vision.  I respect his right to his opinion as clearly he made his living in the business, but I respectfully disagree with it.

It's the same ole' discussion on the money to fund it.  If the students don't pay most of the current bill for ICA and you drop ICA to any level lower than FCS, the dollars saved by the reduced student fees aren't legally permitted to be funneled into academic pursuits.  Raise tuition the amount you reduced the student fee in order to bolster academics, OK.  But only increasing the funding of academic pursuits by 2% of the total annual budget will do little to move the academic needle.

I would actually counter him by postulating that if OHIO were dropping its sports to something less than FCS, then I think you should just fold them in totality and become strictly an academic enterprise, as I see little to no benefit to the university in an effort to heighten the university's perception as a national enterprise when you compete at such a minimal level.

I personally don't believe you would have seen the renaissance OHIO has experienced as a University in the last decade without the heightened marketing presence, much of which can be attributed to decisions made under Glidden and McDavis to increase ICA support via facilities and staff.

Under Charlie, OHIO was a nice little regional college.  But it is impossible to deny that our NATIONAL presence has increased significantly in the last decade.  Many people disagree with Rod, but you have to admit he has expanded the national perception of this institution for the better.


 
Last Edited: 12/13/2013 6:04:42 PM by D.A.
The Optimist
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Posted: 12/13/2013 5:37 PM
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You make some great points D.A.

Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
UMass is going to play Amherst next year?!  That's a division 3 school.  Good grief.  What a joke.  Amherst plays only 8 games per year.  Against the likes of Bowdoin and Wesleyan.  Seriously?....  This would be like Ohio playing Oberlin.  Wow.

UMass made the move too late.  The Big East died.  They ain't going anywhere.  

Big East football isn't completely dead. I am sure UMass would be happy to join UConn, Temple and Cincinnati in a conference. It might not be called the Big East, but if they can get to that conference, I think it'll all be worth it for them.

 
Last Edited: 12/13/2013 5:41:32 PM by The Optimist
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Posted: 12/13/2013 5:41 PM
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Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
This would be like Ohio playing Oberlin. 


Isn't Oberlin the last Ohio college/university to have whipped the mighty Bucks?
davepi2
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Posted: 12/13/2013 5:47 PM
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umass playing those schools isn't quite like Ohio playing Oberlin. Oberlin only dresses 35 players for road games(I know I watched them play Wittenberg this year).
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 12/13/2013 5:58 PM
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D.A. wrote:expand_more
If someone at UMass really believed they would/could draw large crowds to Gillette, they should be relieved of their duties.  It was/is never gonna happen.

On a related note, I just read Charles Ping's book about his years in Athens.  If Dr. Ping had his druthers, the MAC would be a I-AA league at best today.  He repeatedly tried to talk other league presidents out of raising their investment in varsity athletics.  Several very enlightening passages in the book with respect to intercollegiate athletics.  He wrote that Ohio AD Bill Rohr told him he was "naive" when it came to the need for financial investment in a sports program.  Rohr then quit as AD and returned (much to Ping's dismay) as a university trustee a few years later. 



Dr. Ping was my President, and I had high value for what he did for the university, however I never shared his opinion of the role ICA can play for a broader university vision.  I respect his right to his opinion as clearly he made his living in the business, but I respectfully disagree with it.

It's the same ole' discussion on the money to fund it.  If the students don't pay most of the current bill for ICA and you drop ICA to any level lower than FCS, the dollars save by the reduced student fees aren't legally permitted to be funneled into academic pursuits.  Raise tuition the amount you reduced the student fee in order to bolster academics, OK.  But only increasing the funding of academic pursuits by 2% of the total annual budget will do little to move the academic needle.

I would actually counter him by postulating that if OHIO were dropping its sports to something less than FCS, then I think you should just fold them in totality and become strictly an academic enterprise, as I see little to no benefit to the university in an effort to heighten the university's perception as a national enterprise when you compete at such a minimal level.

I personally don't believe you would have seen the renaissance OHIO has experienced as a University in the last decade without the heightened marketing presence, much of which can be attributed to decisions made under Glidden and McDavis to increase ICA support via facilities and staff.

Under Charlie, OHIO was a nice little regional college.  But it is impossible to deny that our NATIONAL presence has increased significantly in the last decade.  Many people disagree with Rod, but you have to admit he has expanded the national perception of this institution for the better.
 


Agree
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 12/13/2013 6:12 PM
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I wish I had known then what I know now about Charlie's true feelings about ICA.  When he was still provost at Central Michigan he wrote an essay that was published in The Chronicle of Higher Education that seemed to be extolling the virtues of athletic competition.  If I could find a copy of that essay today, I'll bet I'd read it a little differently.  At time I interpret this essay to indicate that he'd be very pro ICA.  Wrong!
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Posted: 12/13/2013 7:21 PM
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UMass was forced to play their games at Gillette stadium.  Their current on campus stadium was not up to NCAA and MAC standards.  
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Posted: 12/13/2013 7:38 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
You make some great points D.A.

UMass is going to play Amherst next year?! That's a division 3 school. Good grief. What a joke. Amherst plays only 8 games per year. Against the likes of Bowdoin and Wesleyan. Seriously?.... This would be like Ohio playing Oberlin. Wow.

UMass made the move too late. The Big East died. They ain't going anywhere.

Big East football isn't completely dead. I am sure UMass would be happy to join UConn, Temple and Cincinnati in a conference. It might not be called the Big East, but if they can get to that conference, I think it'll all be worth it for them.
absolutely right! We should not be putting down other conferences when we have had some really bad years. By the way, I really think the MAC is coming up in the world of football. Seems to be competitive, with only 3-5 weak teams in recent years. I will bet anybody that Miami, Akron and UMass will improve in the near future. Maybe even EMU if they lightning in a bottle with their new coach. I remember in recent history how lousy and hopeless Baylor was. Look what can happen when everything falls into place. Not saying any of the recent losers can turn it around in a dime, but if Ohio, Baylor, Duke, and Minnesota can do it, almost anyone can.
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Posted: 12/13/2013 9:14 PM
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SBH wrote:expand_more
If someone at UMass really believed they would/could draw large crowds to Gillette, they should be relieved of their duties. It was/is never gonna happen.

On a related note, I just read Charles Ping's book about his years in Athens. If Dr. Ping had his druthers, the MAC would be a I-AA league at best today. He repeatedly tried to talk other league presidents out of raising their investment in varsity athletics. Several very enlightening passages in the book with respect to intercollegiate athletics. He wrote that Ohio AD Bill Rohr told him he was "naive" when it came to the need for financial investment in a sports program. Rohr then quit as AD and returned (much to Ping's dismay) as a university trustee a few years later.
You are very right here, look at the lack of development of athletics from a budget model, facilities, salaries, and resources under Dr. Ping's term as President. That as much as anything led to the problems faced throughout the 80's and early 90's.
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 12/13/2013 9:15 PM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Never heard of playing home games 93 miles away in a pro stadium. Hopefully having three games on campus next year will spark some fan interest.
Not a pro stadium, but UConn plays in Hartford which is not an easy trip from campus.
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Posted: 12/13/2013 9:50 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
If someone at UMass really believed they would/could draw large crowds to Gillette, they should be relieved of their duties. It was/is never gonna happen.

On a related note, I just read Charles Ping's book about his years in Athens. If Dr. Ping had his druthers, the MAC would be a I-AA league at best today. He repeatedly tried to talk other league presidents out of raising their investment in varsity athletics. Several very enlightening passages in the book with respect to intercollegiate athletics. He wrote that Ohio AD Bill Rohr told him he was "naive" when it came to the need for financial investment in a sports program. Rohr then quit as AD and returned (much to Ping's dismay) as a university trustee a few years later.


You are very right here, look at the lack of development of athletics from a budget model, facilities, salaries, and resources under Dr. Ping's term as President. That as much as anything led to the problems faced throughout the 80's and early 90's.

The Ohio University Ping inherited was broke. It needed a 3 million dollar bailout from the state and scored a coup by landing the medical college down in Athens. There was almost nothing in the way of renovations on campus during his time as he tried to reduce the schools debt service from the 60's boom. Of course New South wasn't that old back in 1980 and renovations were not in order until the early 90's. I like that McDavis scaled back the campus master plan to put all the focus on the dorms. An alumni center was planned for Tailgate Park and now scrapped. The school is lucky money came through for the bypass and the richland avenue bridges and the availability of the Ridges for extra space. The moat around campus from the Army Corp of Engineers. 
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Posted: 12/13/2013 10:05 PM
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Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
If someone at UMass really believed they would/could draw large crowds to Gillette, they should be relieved of their duties. It was/is never gonna happen.

On a related note, I just read Charles Ping's book about his years in Athens. If Dr. Ping had his druthers, the MAC would be a I-AA league at best today. He repeatedly tried to talk other league presidents out of raising their investment in varsity athletics. Several very enlightening passages in the book with respect to intercollegiate athletics. He wrote that Ohio AD Bill Rohr told him he was "naive" when it came to the need for financial investment in a sports program. Rohr then quit as AD and returned (much to Ping's dismay) as a university trustee a few years later.


You are very right here, look at the lack of development of athletics from a budget model, facilities, salaries, and resources under Dr. Ping's term as President. That as much as anything led to the problems faced throughout the 80's and early 90's.


The Ohio University Ping inherited was broke. It needed a 3 million dollar bailout from the state and scored a coup by landing the medical college down in Athens. There was almost nothing in the way of renovations on campus during his time as he tried to reduce the schools debt service from the 60's boom. Of course New South wasn't that old back in 1980 and renovations were not in order until the early 90's. I like that McDavis scaled back the campus master plan to put all the focus on the dorms. An alumni center was planned for Tailgate Park and now scrapped. The school is lucky money came through for the bypass and the richland avenue bridges and the availability of the Ridges for extra space. The moat around campus from the Army Corp of Engineers.
not to derail this conversation about UMass completely but did I hear somewhere that they're basically tearing down most of the dorms in South Green and building fewer, bigger ones?
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Posted: 12/13/2013 10:27 PM
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perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
If someone at UMass really believed they would/could draw large crowds to Gillette, they should be relieved of their duties. It was/is never gonna happen.

On a related note, I just read Charles Ping's book about his years in Athens. If Dr. Ping had his druthers, the MAC would be a I-AA league at best today. He repeatedly tried to talk other league presidents out of raising their investment in varsity athletics. Several very enlightening passages in the book with respect to intercollegiate athletics. He wrote that Ohio AD Bill Rohr told him he was "naive" when it came to the need for financial investment in a sports program. Rohr then quit as AD and returned (much to Ping's dismay) as a university trustee a few years later.


You are very right here, look at the lack of development of athletics from a budget model, facilities, salaries, and resources under Dr. Ping's term as President. That as much as anything led to the problems faced throughout the 80's and early 90's.


The Ohio University Ping inherited was broke. It needed a 3 million dollar bailout from the state and scored a coup by landing the medical college down in Athens. There was almost nothing in the way of renovations on campus during his time as he tried to reduce the schools debt service from the 60's boom. Of course New South wasn't that old back in 1980 and renovations were not in order until the early 90's. I like that McDavis scaled back the campus master plan to put all the focus on the dorms. An alumni center was planned for Tailgate Park and now scrapped. The school is lucky money came through for the bypass and the richland avenue bridges and the availability of the Ridges for extra space. The moat around campus from the Army Corp of Engineers.


not to derail this conversation about UMass completely but did I hear somewhere that they're basically tearing down most of the dorms in South Green and building fewer, bigger ones?

The are knocking down new south and replacing it with suite style housing across from the Ping Center. The space that was once tennis courts on South Green then parking lots is a big construction lot for new dorms. Ohio State is also working on new dorms to require its 5,200 sophomores to live on campus. That could backfire on OSU because only one year in the dorms was a perk.How does a school with 56,000 students have only 5200 sophomores? Richard Vedder says OSU is using the monopoly card to force students to live on campus at OSU and buy food.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/osu-plan-to-add-dorms-costs/nTtH7/

 
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Posted: 12/14/2013 3:06 AM
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Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
If someone at UMass really believed they would/could draw large crowds to Gillette, they should be relieved of their duties. It was/is never gonna happen.

On a related note, I just read Charles Ping's book about his years in Athens. If Dr. Ping had his druthers, the MAC would be a I-AA league at best today. He repeatedly tried to talk other league presidents out of raising their investment in varsity athletics. Several very enlightening passages in the book with respect to intercollegiate athletics. He wrote that Ohio AD Bill Rohr told him he was "naive" when it came to the need for financial investment in a sports program. Rohr then quit as AD and returned (much to Ping's dismay) as a university trustee a few years later.


You are very right here, look at the lack of development of athletics from a budget model, facilities, salaries, and resources under Dr. Ping's term as President. That as much as anything led to the problems faced throughout the 80's and early 90's.


The Ohio University Ping inherited was broke. It needed a 3 million dollar bailout from the state and scored a coup by landing the medical college down in Athens. There was almost nothing in the way of renovations on campus during his time as he tried to reduce the schools debt service from the 60's boom. Of course New South wasn't that old back in 1980 and renovations were not in order until the early 90's. I like that McDavis scaled back the campus master plan to put all the focus on the dorms. An alumni center was planned for Tailgate Park and now scrapped. The school is lucky money came through for the bypass and the richland avenue bridges and the availability of the Ridges for extra space. The moat around campus from the Army Corp of Engineers.


not to derail this conversation about UMass completely but did I hear somewhere that they're basically tearing down most of the dorms in South Green and building fewer, bigger ones?


The are knocking down new south and replacing it with suite style housing across from the Ping Center. The space that was once tennis courts on South Green then parking lots is a big construction lot for new dorms. Ohio State is also working on new dorms to require its 5,200 sophomores to live on campus. That could backfire on OSU because only one year in the dorms was a perk.How does a school with 56,000 students have only 5200 sophomores? Richard Vedder says OSU is using the monopoly card to force students to live on campus at OSU and buy food.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/state-regional-g.../
Do we not still have the same requirement on Sophomores?
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Posted: 12/14/2013 8:50 AM
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Not to further derail the conversation on UMass, but I think the redo of South Green is a very good thing for this University. Yes, the cost right now is huge and in this fiscal era it is something that needs to be considered, but the setup for this new South Green is perfect to make this campus even MORE residential friendly, if that is possible.

Pushing the parking out while pulling South Green more tightly in will really tie together East-South-West and really make that area near Ping//Walter/Clippinger/Morton Halls a tighter part of campus. That walk from Baker to Morton on the bottom of the hill by the Pond will be awesome when this is done.

I think McDavis is really making moves to properly position this University for more national recognition. This campus renovation is a really perfect plan, IMO.

This picture is from the Messenger... They have had some good articles on this plan.



For athletics, I think this is a good thing. By pushing the dorms into this area I think Peden and even the Convo become more accessible and more tied into campus.
 
Last Edited: 12/14/2013 8:56:10 AM by The Optimist
Ohio69
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Posted: 12/14/2013 9:10 AM
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L.C. wrote:expand_more
UMass is going to play Amherst next year?! That's a division 3 school. Good grief. What a joke. Amherst plays only 8 games per year. Against the likes of Bowdoin and Wesleyan. Seriously?.... This would be like Ohio playing Oberlin. Wow.....

The name of the school we are talking about is "U Mass-Amherst". They aren't playing Amherst. They will be playing games in their home stadium, which of course, is in the town of Amherst.
Oops. Totally misread it.

They will draw well when they play on campus. There is no OSU type distraction.

They need to beg Uconn for games.
Last Edited: 12/14/2013 11:17:31 AM by Ohio69
Mike Johnson
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Oh, what the heck.  On this VERY snowy morning in North Canton, let's leave the train off the tracks awhile longer.

Despite Charlie Ping's low regard for athletics - paradoxically I see him frequently in the Tower Club - I respect him for what he did during his long tenure - 19 years as I recall - to strengthen the university's standing and finances.

In addition, I respect what Bob Glidden and Rod McDavis have done to further strengthen alma mater, including athletics.

I confess that I didn't give much thought to the potential impact of athletics on a school's strength until the phenomenon of Gonzaga basketball.  A Wall Street Journal story was revealing.  It tracked the growth of Gonzaga's student applications, enrollment and donations as its basketball program glowed steadily in the national spotlight. 

Today I'm a firm believer that competitive athletics -  in particular football and men's basketball - can and do benefit an entire university. 

A couple weeks ago my daughter Andrea (Ohio '94) and I were chatting with Rod & Deborah McDavis.  A thought struck me and I decided not to let it pass.  "Too often," I said to Rod, "things go unsaid for too long.  Given your age (he is 65), I don't know your intentions as to remaining president.  But I want you to know now that I respect the leadership you have provided." 

Whoever succeeds him and whenever the transition takes place, I hope fervently that the new president continues to build effectively on the Ping-Glidden-McDavis achievements.
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