Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Here come the bowl critics
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L.C.
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Posted: 12/18/2013 7:34 AM
bobcat72 wrote:expand_more
..... For better or worse, sports are the #1 way that universities advertise themselves. That's not to say it's effective. But beyond the playing field/court...most schools do not have much of a national or regional advertising presence.

Good point. Let's say, hypothetically, that Ohio decided to go the other direction, and eliminate sports entirely. How then, should Ohio advertise in the alternative? Businesses that fail to advertise eventually die, and there in no reason to believe that a University is any different. Some Universities have found ways to maintain national top-of-mind awareness other than playing sports. A few examples come to mind, such as M.I.T or U. Chicago. But there are also numerous examples of Universities that don't play sports that haven't been successful at maintaining "brand awareness", and which are not prospering.

Therefore, in some ways, sports are the "safe" choice. Pretty much all schools that have been successful in sports are also succeeding as Universities. Look around at the B1G, or SEC, or ACC, or PAC-10. I think all schools in those conferences are also prospering as Universities, and have growing endowments, increasing enrollments, and healthy R&D programs. Is the connection casual, or causual? Perhaps it is only casual, and the real thing is that that schools that have a lot of energy as an institution prosper as an institution, but also tend to do well in everything else they do, including sports. That would mean it isn't a coincidence, but that sports are not causing growth, but the reverse.

I know that it is possible for Universities to prosper without sports, but it comes back, then, to your point. If they aren't going to play sports, how then are they going to attempt to maintain a national and regional top-of-mind awareness? For better or worse, sports does accomplish that.
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Posted: 12/18/2013 8:38 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Ohio University Foundation Assets and Giving by year:
June 2005 - $182.5m
June 2006 - $218.8m $35.6m
June 2007 - $239.6m $8.2m
June 2008 - $312.2m $94.4m
June 2009 - $266.6m $23.4m
June 2010 - $324.8m $14.6m
June 2011 - $385.6m $27.7m
June 2012 - $417.4m $20.6m
June 2013 - $454.0m $13.5m

Overall this is a 12% annual growth rate for the endowment. The national average was more like 4% for this period, I believe. Maybe it's just a coincidence, of course, and certainly there were some large major gifts here (but, other schools get large gifts, too), but certainly Ohio is doing some right things to have collected $238m in gifts over the last 8 years. I personally think that success at football helps to make the alumni base feel more connected to the University, which in turn is eventually reflected in larger gifts, but I also understand that reasonable minds can differ.


A reasonable example that expresses is a different opinion, is this chart on endowments.  There are quite a few schools on this list that wouldn't be considered "sports" schools that are doing quite well financially and academically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_univers...

Last Edited: 12/18/2013 8:41:10 AM by Alan Swank
Alan Swank
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Posted: 12/18/2013 8:45 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=L.C.]Ohio University Foundation Assets and Giving by year:
June 2005 - $182.5m
June 2006 - $218.8m $35.6m
June 2007 - $239.6m $8.2m
June 2008 - $312.2m $94.4m
June 2009 - $266.6m $23.4m
June 2010 - $324.8m $14.6m
June 2011 - $385.6m $27.7m
June 2012 - $417.4m $20.6m
June 2013 - $454.0m $13.5m

Overall this is a 12% annual growth rate for the endowment. The national average was more like 4% for this period, I believe. Maybe it's just a coincidence, of course, and certainly there were some large major gifts here (but, other schools get large gifts, too), but certainly Ohio is doing some right things to have collected $238m in gifts over the last 8 years. I personally think that success at football helps to make the alumni base feel more connected to the University, which in turn is eventually reflected in larger gifts, but I also understand that reasonable minds can differ.



Also, LC, I'm not sure where those figures came from because in 2010, Gladys Patton gave $28 million to the College of Ed and another $13.3 to the College of Fine Arts and the College of Ed.
Last Edited: 12/18/2013 8:51:42 AM by Alan Swank
DelBobcat
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Posted: 12/18/2013 9:13 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Ohio University Foundation Assets and Giving by year:
June 2005 - $182.5m
June 2006 - $218.8m $35.6m
June 2007 - $239.6m $8.2m
June 2008 - $312.2m $94.4m
June 2009 - $266.6m $23.4m
June 2010 - $324.8m $14.6m
June 2011 - $385.6m $27.7m
June 2012 - $417.4m $20.6m
June 2013 - $454.0m $13.5m

Overall this is a 12% annual growth rate for the endowment. The national average was more like 4% for this period, I believe. Maybe it's just a coincidence, of course, and certainly there were some large major gifts here (but, other schools get large gifts, too), but certainly Ohio is doing some right things to have collected $238m in gifts over the last 8 years. I personally think that success at football helps to make the alumni base feel more connected to the University, which in turn is eventually reflected in larger gifts, but I also understand that reasonable minds can differ.


A reasonable example that expresses is a different opinion, is this chart on endowments.  There are quite a few schools on this list that wouldn't be considered "sports" schools that are doing quite well financially and academically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_univers...


That's like comparing apples to oranges. The schools on that list without a huge sports presence are mostly elite private institutions that have had 100s of years to build up their impressive endowments. A comparison of public institutions would be more appropriate.

 
L.C.
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Posted: 12/18/2013 10:13 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Also, LC, I'm not sure where those figures came from because in 2010, Gladys Patton gave $28 million to the College of Ed and another $13.3 to the College of Fine Arts and the College of Ed.

Those numbers came from the annual financial statements of the Ohio University Foundation. It's certainly possible that I made an error. It's also possible that their gifts show up elsewhere.

As I have noted in other discussions, "Sports" schools are not the only ones with healthy endowment growth, but the other schools that have been successful have been able to maintain top of mind awareness in other ways. I personally think way too much emphasis is placed on Sports, so I agree there. On the other hand, I find it difficult to deny that the emphasis is there, nor that it produces results.
 
OhioStunter
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Posted: 12/18/2013 10:28 AM
DelBobcat wrote:expand_more
Ohio University Foundation Assets and Giving by year:
June 2005 - $182.5m
June 2006 - $218.8m $35.6m
June 2007 - $239.6m $8.2m
June 2008 - $312.2m $94.4m
June 2009 - $266.6m $23.4m
June 2010 - $324.8m $14.6m
June 2011 - $385.6m $27.7m
June 2012 - $417.4m $20.6m
June 2013 - $454.0m $13.5m

Overall this is a 12% annual growth rate for the endowment. The national average was more like 4% for this period, I believe. Maybe it's just a coincidence, of course, and certainly there were some large major gifts here (but, other schools get large gifts, too), but certainly Ohio is doing some right things to have collected $238m in gifts over the last 8 years. I personally think that success at football helps to make the alumni base feel more connected to the University, which in turn is eventually reflected in larger gifts, but I also understand that reasonable minds can differ.


A reasonable example that expresses is a different opinion, is this chart on endowments.  There are quite a few schools on this list that wouldn't be considered "sports" schools that are doing quite well financially and academically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_univers...


That's like comparing apples to oranges. The schools on that list without a huge sports presence are mostly elite private institutions that have had 100s of years to build up their impressive endowments. A comparison of public institutions would be more appropriate.

 


Agree. From a recent US News article:
At the 10 schools with the highest endowments, the average endowment was about $13 billion. All but two schools on the list – University of Michigan—Ann Arbor and Texas A&M University—College Station – are private schools.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2013/10/01/universities-with-the-largest-financial-endowments-colleges-with-the-largest-financial-endowments
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Posted: 12/18/2013 10:49 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Also, LC, I'm not sure where those figures came from because in 2010, Gladys Patton gave $28 million to the College of Ed and another $13.3 to the College of Fine Arts and the College of Ed.

Those numbers came from the annual financial statements of the Ohio University Foundation. It's certainly possible that I made an error. It's also possible that their gifts show up elsewhere.

As I have noted in other discussions, "Sports" schools are not the only ones with healthy endowment growth, but the other schools that have been successful have been able to maintain top of mind awareness in other ways. I personally think way too much emphasis is placed on Sports, so I agree there. On the other hand, I find it difficult to deny that the emphasis is there, nor that it produces results.
 


This has puzzled me for awhile.  These foundation reports seem to consistently under report actual giving in recent years.  For instance, the Stocker bequest to the College of Engineering -- widely reported to have been in the $85-125 million range -- seems never to have been reported at all.  An earlier Stocker gift for a lesser amount, I think was reported.  I know that there were some thorny legal issues related to the will in question, but it's been over five years now and I would think that those issues would have been ironed out.  As I understand it the will was not being contested by another party or anything of that sort.  The problem, as explained to me, was more technical than substantive. Whatever, the cool $125 million +/- appears to never have been listed in these annual giving reports.  As I understand it the Stockers were Ohio football fans, but I don't think their will was influenced by the success or lack thereof during the particular years when they wrote their will.

Edit: It's possible that the Stocker bequest was somehow placed in a special fund in the engineering college and, therefore, was never in the OU Foundation and, hence, not part of their reporting.  This seems unlikely to me.
Last Edited: 12/18/2013 11:00:19 AM by OhioCatFan
L.C.
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Posted: 12/18/2013 3:16 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
...Edit: It's possible that the Stocker bequest was somehow placed in a special fund in the engineering college and, therefore, was never in the OU Foundation and, hence, not part of their reporting.  This seems unlikely to me.

That's what I was thinking. There are a lot of ways to give money to a school, and giving through the Foundation is only one of the possibilities. For smaller gifts, that would be the normal choice, but for larger gifts it certainly is possible to make the gift in other ways, such as setting up an independent foundation, or setting up a Trust that in turn donates its income annually to the school.

Back to the other topic, and the "comparing apples to oranges" argument, certainly there are more than one way for a University to maintain a healthy giving program, and certainly the "ultra-elite" schools do exactly that. Everyone knows names like "M.I.T." "Harvard" "Cal Tech" "U.Chicago", etc. The problem is that as you slide further down the list, are they as well known, and how do they stay that way? How about Grinnell? University of Rochester? Case Western?

If the proposition is that "One way to increase giving is to be successful in sports", you can't disprove it by finding schools with healthy giving that aren't involved in Sports. The way to disprove it is to find schools that were successful in Sports, but which have falling giving. Therefore, using Alan's Wiki data, and computing the annual growth rate for schools from 2005 to 2012:

Ivy League - Avg 4.5% (Penn 6.4%, Princeton 6.1, Columbia 5.7, Brown 4.2, Cornell 3.9, Dartmouth 3.6, Yale 3.5, Harvard 2.6)
Big 11/10 - Avg 5.5% (Nwest 7.8, Wis 7.0, Mich 6.6, Mich St 6.5, Penn St 6.1, Ill 5.5, Purdue 5.2, Indiana 5.2, Ohio St 4.6, Minn 3.4, UNeb-L 2.2, Iowa no data)
SEC - 5.2% (Tex A&M 6.4%, Florida 6.1, U. Missouri 4.7, Vandy 3.7, others no data)
ACC - 5.0% (Ga Tech 8.0, UVa 5.8 UNC 5.6 Duke 5.5, BC 3.8, Wake For 1.4, others no data)
Big 12/10 - 5.8% (Texas 6.7, Okla 6.0, Kansas 4.7, others no data)
Others with FBS football 6.5% - Ohio 12.5%, NY (aka Buffalo) - 8.6% Notre Dame 8.2, Pitt 8.0, TCU 3.3, Rice 2.9, SMU 2.2)
All others with no football - 3.9%
Wash & Lee 13.1%
Tufts 6.9%
U. Chic 6.8%
Geo Washington 6.8%
U. Richmond 6.4%
Georgetown 6.4%
MIT 6.1%
Boston U 5.1%
Amherst 5.1%
Smith 4.5%
Cal State 4.5%
Williams 4.2%
Pomona 3.7%
Swarthmore 3.7%
Emory 3.2%
Cal Tech 3.0%
Lehigh 3.0%
Washington U (St Louis) 2.9%
Johns Hopkins 2.5%
U. Rochester 2.1%
Wellesley 1.8%
Rockefeller .9%
Case Western .8%
U. Delaware .1%
Grinnell (.1%)
Yeshiva (1.2%)

Notes:
1. Ohio doesn't really belong in this list as they have an under 1B endowment, but their growth rate of 12.5% a year is exceeded only by Washington and Lee on this list, so Ohio is doing very, very well.
2. The only BCS school that are under the 3.9% average for "all others without football" are Nebraska, Minnesota, Vandy, BC, and Wake Forest. What were the football records of these teams in the 2004-2011 time period (related to 2005-2012 giving)?

          Endow Grow Rate   Win-Losses   Pct    All Time Pct
Nebraska        2.2%          65-38     .631      .701
Minnesota       3.4%          40-59     .404      .570
Vandy           3.7%          33-63     .344      .498
BC              3.8%          67-36     .650      .582
Wake Forest     1.4%          50-49     .505      .410


So, three of these schools (Nebr, Minnesota, Vandy) that were under the average for non football schools had less football success in this time period than they were used to. One (BC) was moderately more successful than their historical average, and their endowment growth was barely under the average for non football schools. Then we come to Wake Forest. This was an unusually good period for football, and even included an ACC Championship, yet their endowment growth was anemic.

At this point we could look for other explanations for the data from Wake Forest, or we could use Wake Forest to change the premise, and say that while usually athletic success has led to endowment growth, it is possible, though rare, to have athletic success without it leading to strong endowment growth.

As a side note, in the process of doing this data analysis I think I stumbled onto the answer to another question, from another thread, that being, why, with one of the best records in Wake Forest history, Grobe resigned. Perhaps the pressure on him was higher, not because of the football success situation in recent years, but because the endowment growth in recent years hasn't been good. In fairness, the endowment growth in the year he won the ACC was exceptional, but it has been negative since then. Of course, perhaps the blame lies elsewhere, like in the Wake Forest fundraising department, but that's not something I am in a position to analyze.

I would also say that it seems apparent that most Universities believe that there is a connection. That's why they continue to spend on football, continue to pay outlandish salaries for football coaches, and continue to fire coaches at the first hint of a lack of success.
Last Edited: 12/18/2013 3:26:51 PM by L.C.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 12/19/2013 10:49 AM
Interesting post LC.  Part of the growth and decline in endowments is due to investment return.  Without having another level of detail, there is no way to know how much of the growth was due to good/great investments strategies.

Look at 2007 to 2010.  Many many schools saw a decline due to the stock market decline.
L.C.
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Posted: 12/19/2013 11:48 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Interesting post LC.  Part of the growth and decline in endowments is due to investment return.  Without having another level of detail, there is no way to know how much of the growth was due to good/great investments strategies.

Look at 2007 to 2010.  Many many schools saw a decline due to the stock market decline.

Of course that's true, and it certainly could explain an isolated case like Wake Forest. On the other reason I see no reason why BCS schools would systematically have had better investments than non-BCS schools.
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Posted: 12/19/2013 12:39 PM
You can say all you want to say, but when we played Marshall at Peden on national television earlier this year, the stands were half empty because Ohio State was playing California on television. What does that tell you?
OhioStunter
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Posted: 12/19/2013 12:45 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
You can say all you want to say, but when we played Marshall at Peden on national television earlier this year, the stands were half empty because Ohio State was playing California on television. What does that tell you?

A. Ohio State fans are coach potatoes.

 
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Posted: 12/19/2013 1:02 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
You can say all you want to say, but when we played Marshall at Peden on national television earlier this year, the stands were half empty because Ohio State was playing California on television. What does that tell you?


It tells me either your eyesight is poor or your memory is lacking.  24,836 paid to see that game which was the 3rd highest attended game ever at Ohio.   That's also known as a sellout.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 12/19/2013 1:10 PM
OUs LONG Driver wrote:expand_more
You can say all you want to say, but when we played Marshall at Peden on national television earlier this year, the stands were half empty because Ohio State was playing California on television. What does that tell you?


It tells me either your eyesight is poor or your memory is lacking.  24,836 paid to see that game which was the 3rd highest attended game ever at Ohio.   That's also known as a sellout.
 

Now if you lived in Ellet rather than Copley we could blame your "attendance affliction" on all of the toxic waste from the rubber companies that blew east.  For some reason attendance inflation wasn't present in the Convo last night (we've been discussing this by PM today by the way) as it has been in Peden for the last five years.  The stands weren't half empty but a stadium that doesn't hold anywhere near 24,000 had plenty of empty seats.  Regardless 2:00 on a Monday two days before Christmas is less than an ideal bowl time for lots of tv viewing against a team that 80% of the people in America couldn't place in the correct town.
Last Edited: 12/19/2013 1:13:03 PM by Alan Swank
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Posted: 12/19/2013 1:11 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Interesting post LC.  Part of the growth and decline in endowments is due to investment return.  Without having another level of detail, there is no way to know how much of the growth was due to good/great investments strategies.

Look at 2007 to 2010.  Many many schools saw a decline due to the stock market decline.

Of course that's true, and it certainly could explain an isolated case like Wake Forest. On the other reason I see no reason why BCS schools would systematically have had better investments than non-BCS schools.


BCS investors got their degrees from Ivy League schools and Ivy League school investors got their degrees from BCS schools?
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Posted: 12/19/2013 1:23 PM
Plenty of empty seats? Half empty?? The Marshall game was one of the most packed games I've seen in Peden. What game were you guys at???

Seriously, how can you be that naive?

Photographic evidence confirms: http://ohiobobcatphotos.com/p639835730/h7be8c9c1#h7be8c9c1
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Posted: 12/19/2013 2:43 PM

It seems to me some of the people I have seen questioning Ohio Athletic's recent rise to national prominence are people with an agenda other than what is best for Ohio University.

Maybe they are Ohio State fans who for years have been able to root for their alma mater on the side while also getting to root for a national powerhouse without really getting called out for their fanhood of two schools that have fought a heated legal battle over naming rights costing millions of dollars. Not only were they not called out, they actually see themselves as the "holy" fans for even supporting little Ohio U at all. They know alumni who only cheer for Ohio State. Now people are telling them little Ohio U is actually called Ohio? There may come a day when being a fan of Ohio and Ohio State just isn't acceptable? That isn't good... I believe the old saying goes "you can't have your cake and eat it too."

Maybe some others were a part of a good ol' boys network who liked keeping Ohio U nice and removed from any serious growth. They warned that Ohio U had no shot at ever living up to the "Ohio" name and trying to grow Ohio Athletics for the good of the program was a waste of money...
 

We went from people not thinking growth was possible to people disputing that any growth has actually happened when there is clear photographic evidence showing just how far the current administration of leaders at Ohio Univeristy  has taken us. Seems to me the toughest slope in this battle has already been climbed. The summit is in sight. I hear the views are outstanding.


 

 

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Posted: 12/19/2013 3:43 PM
The shots I saw of the crowd on TV didn't look like that. I stand corrected.
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Posted: 12/19/2013 3:52 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
You can say all you want to say, but when we played Marshall at Peden on national television earlier this year, the stands were half empty because Ohio State was playing California on television. What does that tell you?


It tells me either your eyesight is poor or your memory is lacking. 24,836 paid to see that game which was the 3rd highest attended game ever at Ohio. That's also known as a sellout.


Now if you lived in Ellet rather than Copley we could blame your "attendance affliction" on all of the toxic waste from the rubber companies that blew east. For some reason attendance inflation wasn't present in the Convo last night (we've been discussing this by PM today by the way) as it has been in Peden for the last five years. The stands weren't half empty but a stadium that doesn't hold anywhere near 24,000 had plenty of empty seats. Regardless 2:00 on a Monday two days before Christmas is less than an ideal bowl time for lots of tv viewing against a team that 80% of the people in America couldn't place in the correct town.
Credit to bobcat72 for the evidence. Just a smidge over half empty. I am always amazed of the group that can't wait to come on here and talk about the reported attendance # being high. As our season ticket holder #'s increase and I believe they have reportedly done so for a # of years, that often the # of people in the seats will not be equal to the # of people who have paid for a ticket? Ohio reports attendance just like everyone else, paid tickets.
L.C.
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Posted: 12/19/2013 6:38 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
....  Regardless 2:00 on a Monday two days before Christmas is less than an ideal bowl time for lots of tv viewing against a team that 80% of the people in America couldn't place in the correct town.

I think a lot more than 80% would have no clue what town ECU is in. In fact, 80% might be the correct number for the percentage of people that would argue that there is no such State as East Carolina.
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Posted: 12/19/2013 6:49 PM
About the last 10 or so posts above mine tell me a lot about  some folks' agendas towards athletics & the university. Who's with you, and who's against, etc... Kind of disappointing, but not surprising.

And on LC/OCF's numbers that were thought to be low.. I also think it doesn't make sense. The Promise Lives campaign, is between 400 & 500 million raised I believe, and I thought it was just a <10 year thing. I can't find specifics, but I did find here that the 2012 number was listed at 55 million. Maybe there's something I'm not understanding.
Last Edited: 12/19/2013 6:50:13 PM by mcbin
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Posted: 12/19/2013 9:00 PM
I like to imagine Alan Swank stands vigilant against attendance inflation anywhere.
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Posted: 12/19/2013 11:23 PM
mcbin wrote:expand_more
About the last 10 or so posts above mine tell me a lot about  some folks' agendas towards athletics & the university. Who's with you, and who's against, etc... Kind of disappointing, but not surprising.

And on LC/OCF's numbers that were thought to be low.. I also think it doesn't make sense. The Promise Lives campaign, is between 400 & 500 million raised I believe, and I thought it was just a <10 year thing. I can't find specifics, but I did find here that the 2012 number was listed at 55 million. Maybe there's something I'm not understanding.

I believe part of the explanation would be that not all dollars given are endowed dollars.  EX: give $8MM to build a MPF and the dollars are spent, not held in "trust".  On endowed dollars, you primarily/exclusively spend the interest earned, or projected interest (4% is a common number), not the principle.

And as a point of fact, the Foundation is hoping to see more endowed dollars in the last two years of the Campaign, and a disproportionate number of dollars raised to date have not been endowed dollars.

I'm sure someone here will find flaws in my explanation, but this is a simplistic attempt to explain the difference to the numbers in LC's two columns.
Last Edited: 12/19/2013 11:30:44 PM by D.A.
L.C.
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Posted: 12/19/2013 11:43 PM
Of course, D.A. We should have all thought of that. If money is raised for a specific purpose, as in, the  IPF, or to build new dorms, it would never show up in the endowment.
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