Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Which came first, chicken or the egg?
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Athens
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Posted: 2/17/2014 12:00 AM
The student teacher ratio at Ohio is higher and but the profile largely has remained unchanged. The school expanded not to do whats best for the USNWR but what was best for the schools overall financial picture. Cincinnati my impression is moving up profile at the expense of Miami who is struggling with extra expensive tuition. They've gone down significantly in the rankings too and last year were about around 90. Public schools in Ohio are feeling a lot of price pressure these days.

 
Last Edited: 2/17/2014 12:01:33 AM by Athens
fiugoldenpanthers1
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Posted: 2/17/2014 9:10 AM
Wait, wait. I, in no way was referring to BCS conferences. When I stated move up, I was referring to the former Big East or CUSA. Say what you want about CUSA but I have seen a Hughes difference to exposure with FIU from the S belt and CUSA and FIU has done nothing to move up. Attendance is one of the worst in the country, alumni giving money back does not exist, they are not competitive in athletics. The athletic department is a mess but with that FIU has moved up to CUSA, so why can't OHIO do something similar? 
The Optimist
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Posted: 2/17/2014 9:24 AM
I don't see C-USA as a step up from the MAC.

It is clearly worse academically and worse in basketball. Some argue it is better in football... Even if it is, it isn't enough to make a move beneficial.

Moving up to the AAC to play the likes of Cincinnati, UConn and Memphis... That would be a step forward in my eyes. I could see us going there if the administrators at Ohio were confident that there was stability in that conference.
As far as the AAC being interested in Ohio, I think the biggest hurdle there is our football stadium. Everything else is in place, IMO.

While football would be nice in that conference, AAC basketball is really what appeals to myself. I flipped on ESPN yesterday and watched ranked Memphis go to overtime at ranked UConn. Getting programs like that into the Convo would be wonderful. We could develop a rivalry with UC which I believe would actually help both schools compete in-state for interest against OSU.

(Bonus is we reunite with our pals from Temple!!!)
Last Edited: 2/17/2014 9:36:36 AM by The Optimist
fiugoldenpanthers1
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Posted: 2/17/2014 9:37 AM
I am not referring to who you are playing in CUSA, I am referring to money, bowls, and exposure. From the Sun belt to CUSA, that has been a hugh step up. I haven't studied the MAC but in respect from going from the Sunbelt to CUSA, it has been a big difference.
The Optimist
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Posted: 2/17/2014 9:39 AM
fiugoldenpanthers1 wrote:expand_more
I am not referring to who you are playing in CUSA, I am referring to money, bowls, and exposure. From the Sun belt to CUSA, that has been a hugh step up. I haven't studied the MAC but in respect from going from the Sunbelt to CUSA, it has been a big difference.

My belief is the same. Money, bowls and ESPECIALLY exposure the MAC is better for Ohio.
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Posted: 2/17/2014 9:46 AM
I've said it before and backed it up with facts from the university's own statistical profiles.  I believe that, while there may be a marginal increase in overall applications, athletic success does not drive the quality of those freshman classes forward.  You simply get more of the same kind of students who were applying previously.


Ohio has seen larger applicant pools, but even then it's debatable as to what's driving them since that is a trend seen all over the country and is largely ascribed to students applying to many more colleges than they did a generation ago and a demographic blip (the so called baby boom echo).  What is clear is that Ohio's freshman classes by any standard (test scores, gpa or class rank) are essentially unchanged from where they were in 2006 when Rod showed up at our door.

 
Casper71
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Posted: 2/17/2014 10:11 AM
Wes, I havent compared the rankings line by line but I believe essentially what you are saying is OHIO has stayed "status quo" over the last decade but a lot of other institutions have thrown resources on ways to improve their posture in the rankings.  It's sorta like if you are standing still you are losing ground.

Your observations about UC and Miami may be correct.  Bottom line is some institutions have spent a ton of money on Athletics and Academics and perhaps Miami and OHIO are NOT two of them.
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Posted: 2/17/2014 1:24 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more
I've said it before and backed it up with facts from the university's own statistical profiles.  I believe that, while there may be a marginal increase in overall applications, athletic success does not drive the quality of those freshman classes forward.  You simply get more of the same kind of students who were applying previously....

The question still remains, why is every single AQ school ranked highly in academics, and why do they, almost without exceptions, have larger endowments than non-AQ FBS schools? From looking at the data, I have to think there is some sort of relationship there, where athletic success promotes both academic success and endowment giving, at least at the AQ level.  Is it because it attracts better students? Is it because name recognition attracts better professors? Is it because it attracts more R&D grants? Is is because it promotes non-athletic ties to affiliated institutions? I don't know.

Does the relationship extend below the AQ level? No, I don't think so. I see no difference between non-AQ FBS schools and non-FBS schools. The one gray area is the AAC, which seems to be mid-way between the AQ and the non-AQ FBS schools. They may get some benefits, but not as much as the AQ schools get.

My conclusion is that Ohio is unlikely to get much, if any, benefit from athletics while it remains in the MAC, and CUSA would be no different. Thus, the effect you are seeing, OUPride, is entirely consistent with what I am seeing in the data elsewhere.

Interestingly, because of all the conference re-alignments, we have a unique opportunity to see if athletics at the AQ level do indeed impact such things as academics, and I think we will find that they do. As a local example, I know that at U. Nebraska Lincoln has seen improvements in students, and increases in R&D since joining the Big Ten. In that case I think the driving cause is not the athletics, per se, but rather the closer ties to other quality Universities. (That's a reason why, if Ohio does move to another conference, either up or down, they should pick a conference where most of the institutions are high quality institutions academically).

Schools that we can watch over the next few years are:
Utah - moved from MWC to Pac-12 (non-AQ to AQ)
Nebraska - moved from Big 12 to Big 10 (better academic league)
Colorado - Big 12 to Pac-12 (better academic league)
West Virginia - Big East to Big 12 (non-AQ to AQ)
TCU - MWC to Big 12 (non-AQ to AQ)
Temple - MAC to Big East/AAC (non-AQ to in-between)
Missouri - Big 12 to SEC (sideways)
Syracuse - Big East to ACC (non-AQ to AQ, plus better academic league)
SMU - CUSA to AAC (non-AQ to in-between)
Pitt - Big East to ACC (non-AQ to AQ, plus better academic league)

Also, a number of schools moved from FCS to FBS (Georgia State, UTSA, Texas State, U.Mass, Old Dominion, South Alabama). I didn't list all the moves from Sunbelt to CUSA, or WAC to MWC as I see those to be sideways. I wouldn't expect anything to happen from an FCS-FBS move, nor from a Sunbelt-CUSA move..
Last Edited: 2/17/2014 1:28:45 PM by L.C.
OUPride
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Posted: 2/17/2014 6:09 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
I've said it before and backed it up with facts from the university's own statistical profiles.  I believe that, while there may be a marginal increase in overall applications, athletic success does not drive the quality of those freshman classes forward.  You simply get more of the same kind of students who were applying previously....

The question still remains, why is every single AQ school ranked highly in academics, and why do they, almost without exceptions, have larger endowments than non-AQ FBS schools? From looking at the data, I have to think there is some sort of relationship there, where athletic success promotes both academic success and endowment giving, at least at the AQ level.  Is it because it attracts better students? Is it because name recognition attracts better professors? Is it because it attracts more R&D grants? Is is because it promotes non-athletic ties to affiliated institutions? I don't know.

OK, let's compare schools within the AQ conferences.  Let's look at Alabama and Minnesota.  Minnesota hasn't been relevant in football in fifty years and their only brief period as a national contender in basketball ended in a horrible scandal (Clem Haskins), yet they are a much higher ranked university than Alabama, do several times as much research annually and have the endowment over $2B as compared to barely of half a billion for Alabama.

The OSU situation is rather weird if you ask me.  I think they were much more highly regarded in the first half of the twentieth century up until the late 50s, and then their reputation took a nose dive from the mid sixties through the eighties before they began to turn it around in the 90s.  One thing that I did find from reading their wikipedia page is that they were admitted into the AAU (1916) when they were still pretty crappy in football, so you can't argue that football success drove that.

 
Athens
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Posted: 2/17/2014 6:49 PM
Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Wes, I havent compared the rankings line by line but I believe essentially what you are saying is OHIO has stayed "status quo" over the last decade but a lot of other institutions have thrown resources on ways to improve their posture in the rankings.  It's sorta like if you are standing still you are losing ground.

That is what I've said and as usual you have a good handle on it. When I do disagree on things its only very slight though it might sound different online. That said Ohio has two major problems upgrading its profile. One nobody wants to go to school in Ohio. They want to go to states like Colorado, Florida, New Hampshire or cities like New York, Chicago or Boston. The second big issue I see is that its a public school. If a student has a full ride from Ohio or a full ride from a decent private school, where are they going to be perceived as getting more value? There are cases where people want to be at a larger school that has more things going on. Even with the money available to give everyone a full ride its still not an easy sell. I had thought if the school had a big reputation for Appalachian outreach you might attract students who want a mission based experience. You would still have to overcome the idea for someone in New York or North Carolina of going to a public school in Ohio. Again here I'm talking about attracting borderline Ivy League students with full rides to raise the profile. 
 
The Optimist
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Posted: 2/17/2014 8:18 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more
I've said it before and backed it up with facts from the university's own statistical profiles.  I believe that, while there may be a marginal increase in overall applications, athletic success does not drive the quality of those freshman classes forward.  You simply get more of the same kind of students who were applying previously....

The question still remains, why is every single AQ school ranked highly in academics, and why do they, almost without exceptions, have larger endowments than non-AQ FBS schools? From looking at the data, I have to think there is some sort of relationship there, where athletic success promotes both academic success and endowment giving, at least at the AQ level.  Is it because it attracts better students? Is it because name recognition attracts better professors? Is it because it attracts more R&D grants? Is is because it promotes non-athletic ties to affiliated institutions? I don't know.

OK, let's compare schools within the AQ conferences.  Let's look at Alabama and Minnesota.  Minnesota hasn't been relevant in football in fifty years and their only brief period as a national contender in basketball ended in a horrible scandal (Clem Haskins), yet they are a much higher ranked university than Alabama, do several times as much research annually and have the endowment over $2B as compared to barely of half a billion for Alabama.

The OSU situation is rather weird if you ask me.  I think they were much more highly regarded in the first half of the twentieth century up until the late 50s, and then their reputation took a nose dive from the mid sixties through the eighties before they began to turn it around in the 90s.  One thing that I did find from reading their wikipedia page is that they were admitted into the AAU (1916) when they were still pretty crappy in football, so you can't argue that football success drove that.

 

I think what OUPride is trying to say is that the chicken came first.
L.C.
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Posted: 2/17/2014 8:56 PM
I agree that is what he is saying, yet it seems too great of a coincidence to me that every AQ school is also highly regarded for academics. I don't doubt that there are many other factors at work, some much more powerful, such as lobbying power of various institutions. Therefore the absolute position of the various institutions is of less interest to me than the relative changes. That was why  I asked if anyone had an old ranking so I could compare changes over the last decade. I guess i will have to go to the library to get it as it doesn't appear to be online.
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