Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Division IV
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L.C.
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Posted: 6/5/2014 10:13 AM
True. NVM. Must have been having a flashback to my youth when I posted that.
mf279801
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Posted: 6/5/2014 10:27 AM
Jeff Johnson wrote:expand_more
The thing is this is supposed to be amateur athletics. ..

Revisiting this point, I wonder if someone will petition the International Olympic Committee to rule on whether Snob-5 football players are "amateur" anymore, and thus, eligible to compete in the Olympics? I doubt Division I football players compete in the Olympics very often, so it would be a symbolic ruling more than a substantive one.


Given that the IOC has already permitted the participation of professional tennis, basketball and hockey players, I doubt there will ultimately be any restriction on current/former college athletes.



Not to mention skiing, bicycling, and I'm sure athletes from any other sport that has a professional component

 
UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 6/9/2014 10:12 AM
Here's a story from an OU alum on the topic:
RSBobcat
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Posted: 6/14/2014 12:16 AM
I was humoured by what Jeff Samardzia said in recent Sports Illustrated -"If someone had given me $1,500.00 in college you might not have ever seen me again"
Last Edited: 6/14/2014 12:17:23 AM by RSBobcat
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Posted: 6/14/2014 8:45 AM
UpSan Bobcat wrote:expand_more
Here's a story from an OU alum on the topic:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2014-06-0...

Pretty comprehensive review of the situation, I liked the breakdown into major considerations. Of course, they screwed up the attendance stats and put Toledo above 20,000 and us below. It chaps me when these kinds of simple things are messed up. You tend to wonder about the validity of other things that are said.
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Posted: 8/7/2014 12:23 PM
46% of The power 5 coaches just voted to only play P-5 teams OOC-35% were opposed. I have a hard time seeing that happen, but it looks more and more like where it is headed. And they mention that they won't have to win 6 games to qualify for a bowl if that dies happen.

It might as well be D-IV, because it's going to way different for the haves and have nots pretty soon.
Last Edited: 8/7/2014 12:25:11 PM by colobobcat66
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Posted: 8/7/2014 12:43 PM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
46% of The power 5 coaches just voted to only play P-5 teams OOC-35% were opposed. I have a hard time seeing that happen, but it looks more and more like where it is headed. And they mention that they won't have to win 6 games to qualify for a bowl if that dies happen.

It might as well be D-IV, because it's going to way different for the haves and have nots pretty soon.


According to the papers out here,the NCAA will let the Power 5 make thier own rules while still considering them  D1 since, if they don't, and the Power 5 leave the NCAA  to form D IV,the NCAA looses all the money the Power 5 generate.
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Posted: 8/7/2014 12:48 PM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
46% of The power 5 coaches just voted to only play P-5 teams OOC-35% were opposed. I have a hard time seeing that happen, but it looks more and more like where it is headed. And they mention that they won't have to win 6 games to qualify for a bowl if that dies happen.

It might as well be D-IV, because it's going to way different for the haves and have nots pretty soon.


Interesting passage from the CBS article:

Guys like Saban are in favor of the idea because he says that it would be more interesting to the fans, while Rich Rodriguez points out that there are some teams in the other conferences that are better than some in the major conferences.

Then there was Kansas State's Bill Snyder who brought up the point that with the exclusive schedule schools wouldn't be able to schedule seven home games a season, and those seven (or eight) home games a year are important to the economies of the college towns those games are being played in.

I think some schools will still want to play non-P's with good reps (NIU, Toledo, Boise, to name a few) instead of easy P's (Indiana, Purdue, Utah, etc.).  Ohio's rep is pretty good.  And as has been discussed here, total segregation won't happen until they can figure out a way to get 7-8 home games a year or be able to play neutral-site games that'll at least nearly offset the financial hit their communities will take.  This is probably still a few years down the road, although I wouldn't be surprised if total or near total segregation happens in the next ten years.

Last Edited: 8/7/2014 12:48:28 PM by Pataskala
colobobcat66
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Posted: 8/7/2014 1:54 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
46% of The power 5 coaches just voted to only play P-5 teams OOC-35% were opposed. I have a hard time seeing that happen, but it looks more and more like where it is headed. And they mention that they won't have to win 6 games to qualify for a bowl if that dies happen.

It might as well be D-IV, because it's going to way different for the haves and have nots pretty soon.


Interesting passage from the CBS article:


Guys like Saban are in favor of the idea because he says that it would be more interesting to the fans, while Rich Rodriguez points out that there are some teams in the other conferences that are better than some in the major conferences.
Then there was Kansas State's Bill Snyder who brought up the point that with the exclusive schedule schools wouldn't be able to schedule seven home games a season, and those seven (or eight) home games a year are important to the economies of the college towns those games are being played in.

I think some schools will still want to play non-P's with good reps (NIU, Toledo, Boise, to name a few) instead of easy P's (Indiana, Purdue, Utah, etc.). Ohio's rep is pretty good. And as has been discussed here, total segregation won't happen until they can figure out a way to get 7-8 home games a year or be able to play neutral-site games that'll at least nearly offset the financial hit their communities will take. This is probably still a few years down the road, although I wouldn't be surprised if total or near total segregation happens in the next ten years.
You are so right about the loss of home games under the new scenario. It is amazing that Bo Pelini at Nebraska voted for it, because Nebraska has always wanted to play at least 7 home games.
And as far as the fans wanting to see better teams, that's all good and well until they start losing to those "peer" teams instead of beating up on the have nots. There's are only so many Kansas's around to play for these guys.
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Posted: 8/7/2014 2:30 PM
...and that would be the last dime or minute I spend on major college football.
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Posted: 8/7/2014 3:06 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
...and that would be the last dime or minute I spend on major college football.


I'm already pretty close to that.  I buy my Ohio season tickets, and go to a UC game once every other year, and that's about it. These are places where the STUDENT is still part of the phrase student-athlete, and Saturday football games still feel like COLLEGE athletics. 

Frankly, I'd rather spend fall Saturday's hiking a trail in Hocking Hills, or at a winery or craft brewery than watch B1G or SEC football games.

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Posted: 8/7/2014 3:31 PM
I think that the number of people dropping out from big time football will be fairly minimal overall and that the amount of money that comes in to these big time monsters will ease their pain quite adequately.    What I am more concerned about is what it will do to the Ohio's of the world.
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Posted: 8/7/2014 3:36 PM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
...You are so right about the loss of home games under the new scenario. It is amazing that Bo Pelini at Nebraska voted for it, because Nebraska has always wanted to play at least 7 home games.
And as far as the fans wanting to see better teams, that's all good and well until they start losing to those "peer" teams instead of beating up on the have nots. There's are only so many Kansas's around to play for these guys.

While it's true that with a smaller group, P5, there will be more equality, they still won't be equal. There is no way that the athletic budget at, say, Kansas State is close to the budget at Ohio State. There is no way that the home gate take for a home game at Iowa State is close to the home gate at Penn State. Economics tells you that will mean the same thing you have now, but on a different scale: The have-nots will end up playing away "money games", trying to even up some of the budget disparities. Thus my guess is that you'll still see teams like Ohio State, Alabama, Penn State, Nebraska, and Texas playing 7  home games. The losers will the teams like Kansas State, who has 7 home games this year, dropping to 5.
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Posted: 8/7/2014 3:58 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...You are so right about the loss of home games under the new scenario. It is amazing that Bo Pelini at Nebraska voted for it, because Nebraska has always wanted to play at least 7 home games.
And as far as the fans wanting to see better teams, that's all good and well until they start losing to those "peer" teams instead of beating up on the have nots. There's are only so many Kansas's around to play for these guys.

While it's true that with a smaller group, P5, there will be more equality, they still won't be equal. There is no way that the athletic budget at, say, Kansas State is close to the budget at Ohio State. There is no way that the home gate take for a home game at Iowa State is close to the home gate at Penn State. Economics tells you that will mean the same thing you have now, but on a different scale: The have-nots will end up playing away "money games", trying to even up some of the budget disparities. Thus my guess is that you'll still see teams like Ohio State, Alabama, Penn State, Nebraska, and Texas playing 7 home games. The losers will the teams like Kansas State, who has 7 home games this year, dropping to 5.
. You really can't make up much of the disparity by playing money games unless those money games pay way more than they do now, and I mean way more. And that may happen! The problem is that the teams you mentioned have big, filled stadiums and the have nots don't, but TV money, donations, endowments, etc make up some of the differences as well.
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Posted: 8/7/2014 4:07 PM
The only thing I disagree with is that people think the lesser conferences will have nowhere to go for TV rights. ESPN, CBS Sports, NBC Sports, Fox Sports, you name it are always in dire need of programming. Ohio football will still get on TV. Now, will the contracts be the same? Probably not, but I'm not naive enough to think that the MAC and other conferences will be dropped from TV altogether.

That is, unless the NCAA somehow restricts the lesser divisions' TV rights now that they've given complete control to the Big 5.

It's actually quite ingenious what the NCAA has done. They've controlled a sport for the better part of half a century and created one of the most popular sports in America by not paying their labor force, in turn, generating billions of dollars. For a while I think I always knew college football was going to shift towards a semi-pro farm system for the NFL. The rules of the league and the draft are set up that way. Watch your boys on Saturday become future stars of Sunday. But the fact that a college was tied to that particular team made it more interesting to the consumer.

Paul Daugherty had an interesting take in today's Enquirer about it.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/daugherty-blog/2014/08/07.../

I'm actually in agreement with it. But not for all of college football. Let the Big 5 do their own thing and write new rules for the other conferences. Rules that make sense instead of the garbage in the Bylaws they have now.

I'm more interested to see what is going to happen with the NCAA Tournament in basketball. Since there are so many more teams that can qualify for the tournament, how in the heck are those five conferences going to kick the other 200+ teams out?
Last Edited: 8/7/2014 4:15:59 PM by GoCats105
OUPride
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Posted: 8/7/2014 4:53 PM
There's two ways to look at this.  Take your pick.
Last Edited: 8/7/2014 4:54:03 PM by OUPride
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 8/7/2014 6:24 PM
Philip Roth once wrote: “No sense carrying dreams of Tahiti in your head if you can’t afford the fare.”

Ohio and other mid-majors were trying to win a carnival game that was rigged against them from the start.
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Posted: 8/8/2014 8:51 AM
Today's WSJ included a story on the NCAA Board's vote. Of the 18 board members, only 2 - presidents of Dartmouth and Delaware - voting against the Big 5 proposal.

Interesting fact: According to the WSJ story, if only 75 of the 350 Division I schools vote against the proposal, the Board would have to revisit the proposal on October 30. It will be interesting to learn if there are 75 such presidents willing to say No.

Meanwhile, my love for college athletics just took a major hit.
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Posted: 8/8/2014 12:02 PM
Mike Johnson wrote:expand_more
Interesting fact: According to the WSJ story, if only 75 of the 350 Division I schools vote against the proposal, the Board would have to revisit the proposal on October 30. It will be interesting to learn if there are 75 such presidents willing to say No.

I don't see why.  I think the lure of getting some table scraps is better than no table scraps.  Feels dirty to have to associate with the Power conferences, but they can feed enough money down to just make it impossible for the non-power conferences to breakaway.  They aren't going to stop scheduling games against non-power conference schools because they want the 7 home games each season.  And, unfortunately, the non-power conference teams are forced to accept these games because of the payday.

How is this "Full Cost" of college scholarship going to work?  Can colleges offer it only to Football players?  Or does that violate Title IX?    Can they choose which players they want to give "full cost" scholarships to?  Do they have to offer same number of "full cost" scholarships to women to be equal? 

I don't see how non-Power conference colleges/universities will be able to compete in any sport (not just revenue sports) if the power conference teams can basically offer "full cost" scholarships to all their student athletes because they have the budgets to do so.  Seems like a complete wreck for nearly 300 colleges and universities who aren't part of the 'Power 5 club'.
 
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Posted: 8/8/2014 12:20 PM
Bobcat110 wrote:expand_more
Interesting fact: According to the WSJ story, if only 75 of the 350 Division I schools vote against the proposal, the Board would have to revisit the proposal on October 30. It will be interesting to learn if there are 75 such presidents willing to say No.

I don't see why.  I think the lure of getting some table scraps is better than no table scraps.  Feels dirty to have to associate with the Power conferences, but they can feed enough money down to just make it impossible for the non-power conferences to breakaway.  They aren't going to stop scheduling games against non-power conference schools because they want the 7 home games each season.  And, unfortunately, the non-power conference teams are forced to accept these games because of the payday.

How is this "Full Cost" of college scholarship going to work?  Can colleges offer it only to Football players?  Or does that violate Title IX?    Can they choose which players they want to give "full cost" scholarships to?  Do they have to offer same number of "full cost" scholarships to women to be equal? 

I don't see how non-Power conference colleges/universities will be able to compete in any sport (not just revenue sports) if the power conference teams can basically offer "full cost" scholarships to all their student athletes because they have the budgets to do so.  Seems like a complete wreck for nearly 300 colleges and universities who aren't part of the 'Power 5 club'.
 


But they don't have the budget to offer that to all players, which is the peculiar thing. Only about 5-10% of college athletic departments actually turn a profit. Sooner or later the money is going to run out. You can't have 85 football players on full cost of tuition and continue to be a revenue generator for your particular school.

Eventually the scholarships will go away and these players will be paid as an employee with room and board paid for. The scholarship will just be a perk for those that don't make it to the NFL and want to start their education after playing.
L.C.
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Posted: 8/8/2014 1:01 PM
Bobcat110 wrote:expand_more
.... They aren't going to stop scheduling games against non-power conference schools because they want the 7 home games each season.  And, unfortunately, the non-power conference teams are forced to accept these games because of the payday.....

If that's the only reason they play non-P5 teams, there will be no more 1-1 deals for the G-5. Also, there is no particular reason those money games need to go to the G-5. The P-5 could jump right over them and play FCS teams for their extra home games, and the FCS teams will probably do it for less.
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Posted: 8/8/2014 1:21 PM
Delete Pending wrote:expand_more
Philip Roth once wrote: “No sense carrying dreams of Tahiti in your head if you can’t afford the fare.”

Ohio and other mid-majors were trying to win a carnival game that was rigged against them from the start.

This is a great point. The whole system is getting even more unseemly, and my interest is flagging in football with each step toward the abyss. Between the concussion and injury issues, the legitimate questions raised by the O'Bannon lawsuit, and now this emphatic marginalization, I really question the point of trying to keep up in football.

Some interesting further reading: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/sports/ncaas-vote-on-ne...;



 
JSF
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Posted: 8/8/2014 1:36 PM
The emperor has no clothes. Sooner or later, everyone will realize it.
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Posted: 8/8/2014 1:39 PM
Just a reality check here, when was the last time we actually signed an academically-eligible recruit who had a valid, still in place offer from a P-5 school? We haven't been getting those guys. We will keep getting the same players that we have been and there may actually be a few more guys added who have offers from schools such as Cincy and some of the better AAC schools since they will be in with the rest of us in major league college football irrelevancy, if that's a word.
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Posted: 8/8/2014 1:41 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more
There's two ways to look at this.  Take your pick.


Unfortunately, I think Bill Paxton is gonna be right.
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