Ohio Football Topic
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C Money
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Posted: 6/2/2014 7:54 AM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
We are all Luddites now.

What am I missing here? Wanting to understand how this fits. 


The Luddites sought to protect good paying artisanal jobs ("the middle class") by slowing/destroying the implementation of technology ("capital").

Then there's Friedman's statement, "We are all Keynesians now," re: Nixon's economic policies.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 6/2/2014 10:17 AM
Are politics and governmental decisions influenced by people with lots of money or by people with not so much money?

The answer describes the baseline.  Except for the rather looney fringes, people tend to discuss politics from that baseline.

An argument could be made that the baseline is determined by the people who influence politics and government, that the baseline is far from free of the influence.

I kinda doubt that--no matter what party or politics you favor--you can make much of an argument that people with not so much money have much influence.


[To the argument that policies sometimes favor those with not so much money, I'd suggest that happens when those with influence happen to favor policies that favor those with not so much influence...not so much because those with not so much money are being heard.]

 
davepi2
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Posted: 6/2/2014 10:29 AM
Well at least one SEC Division IV school will lose to a MAC school this year. Maybe that is the real reason they don't wan't to play non aq schools anymore.
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 6/2/2014 10:47 AM
Bartering is still used as a means of exchange in some parts of Siberia.
C Money
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Posted: 6/2/2014 12:06 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Are politics and governmental decisions influenced by people with lots of money or by people with not so much money?

The answer describes the baseline.  Except for the rather looney fringes, people tend to discuss politics from that baseline.

An argument could be made that the baseline is determined by the people who influence politics and government, that the baseline is far from free of the influence.

I kinda doubt that--no matter what party or politics you favor--you can make much of an argument that people with not so much money have much influence.


[To the argument that policies sometimes favor those with not so much money, I'd suggest that happens when those with influence happen to favor policies that favor those with not so much influence...not so much because those with not so much money are being heard.]


Ok, let's tie it back to football.

Let's imagine wealth brackets for D1 football:
Upper Upper = B1G, SEC
Middle Upper = PAC-12, ACC
Lower Upper = Big 12
Upper Middle = AAC
Middle Middle = MWC, CUSA
Lower Middle = MAC, Sun Belt
Upper Lower = Good FCS conferences
Middle Lower = Average FCS conferences
Lower Lower = Poor FCS conferences

As has been mentioned, the NCAA is supposed to be democratic, so if there are more Middle and Lower class conferences than Upper class, why not just vote against the Uppers and require a redistribution of their wealth to the Middles and Lowers? Yes, the Uppers have the money, so you could argue they control the baseline discussion. But how did they get the money? The Middles and Lowers must have, at some point, determined there was a mutually beneficial result from allowing the Uppers to accumulate their wealth.

[Aside....Is the incentive the Uppers toss out there for the benefit of the Middle and Lower conferences, or is it for the benefit of the conference/school administrators/coaches looking for career advancement? But that gets into the private inurement/benefit doctrine of non-profit taxation that is the whole reason the NCAA does what it does the way it does it.......and that's a different discussion for a different day....]

So now that Middles and Lowers don't like it, the Uppers claim they will just opt out under the theory that the NCAA needs them (and their money) more than they need the NCAA. Is that true? I don't know. I don't know that anyone knows, and I don't know that anyone wants to find out.....but we are probably reaching a point (Northwestern unionization attempt, O'Bannon lawsuit, concussions, etc.) where we're going to, either voluntarily with a Div IV/NFL farm system, or involuntarily with Congressional action. Remember, Sen. Hatch from Utah just about blew up the BCS until the Utes got a seat at the Uppers' table. What politician is out there right now who wants to score some easy political points with his home state constituents?
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Posted: 6/2/2014 12:27 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
[To the argument that policies sometimes favor those with not so much money, I'd suggest that happens when those with influence happen to favor policies that favor those with not so much influence...not so much because those with not so much money are being heard.]

No, the reason is that the people with not so much money have far more votes, so there is also an interest by politicians to cater to where the votes are. Politicians end up pulled in three directions - where the votes are, where the money is, and based on what is best for the country.

In football, however, the same thing does not apply. Do the lower schools have sufficient votes to outvote the upper ones? I am not sure about how the rule-setting/voting process works in the NCAA, but i suspect there is a procedural bias built in that allows the power schools to have more say in new rules.

Even more important at the moment is the fact that, in the NCAA , if the power schools don't like the rules that the NCAA adopts, they can secede, and are talking about doing so. In politics, the minority has no option to do that.

Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Bartering is still used as a means of exchange in some parts of Siberia.

Hmm, it's almost balmy in Siberia this time of year. It's 40 in Krasnoyarsk, 43 in Barnaul, 46 in Novosibirsk, 50 in Irkutsk, and a pleasant 59 and partly sunny in Omsk.
Last Edited: 6/2/2014 1:24:58 PM by L.C.
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Posted: 6/2/2014 2:42 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
. . .  Politicians end up pulled in three directions - where the votes are, where the money is, and based on what is best for the country.


Unfortunately, you've placed those items in the exact priority ranking used by most politicians today.

L.C. wrote:expand_more
In football, however, the same thing does not apply. Do the lower schools have sufficient votes to outvote the upper ones? I am not sure about how the rule-setting/voting process works in the NCAA, but i suspect there is a procedural bias built in that allows the power schools to have more say in new rules.


I believe right now each school has an equal vote.  The proposed changes would give the Snob's an unequal weight in voting. No longer one-school-one-vote.

L.C. wrote:expand_more
Even more important at the moment is the fact that, in the NCAA , if the power schools don't like the rules that the NCAA adopts, they can secede, and are talking about doing so. In politics, the minority has no option to do that.


Well, in politics they tried that secession thing once, but it didn't work out too well!   Seriously, though, I think the threat of the Pig6 to secede is a bluff.  If they tried to carry it out, all hell would break loose and Congress would most certainly get involved.  The Slob5 should not fall for the bluff. 



 
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D.A.
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Posted: 6/2/2014 2:46 PM
cc cat wrote:expand_more
What will be interesting in this situation is the power conferences need their broadcast partners to go along with it all, but the ESPN's, SportsSouth, etc. need the other conferences and teams to fill programming.  They have a delicate play going forward. 


Bingo.  The big five may feel they deserve a bigger slice, and exclusive access to the benefits, but they have to remember that ANorris' employer pays the bills.  If ABC/ESPN doesn't want a subdivision of FBS, then it doesn't matter what Saban wants.  Same way with Hoops and CBS. 

 
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Posted: 6/2/2014 9:47 PM
Funny thing is, the SEC is the engine driving this! But most want to complain about the school up the road, they at least a part of a group that values athletics.
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Posted: 6/2/2014 9:52 PM
D.A. wrote:expand_more
What will be interesting in this situation is the power conferences need their broadcast partners to go along with it all, but the ESPN's, SportsSouth, etc. need the other conferences and teams to fill programming. They have a delicate play going forward.



Bingo. The big five may feel they deserve a bigger slice, and exclusive access to the benefits, but they have to remember that ANorris' employer pays the bills. If ABC/ESPN doesn't want a subdivision of FBS, then it doesn't matter what Saban wants. Same way with Hoops and CBS.
And you do not think the "broadcast partners" will not follow the power conferences? They can leave at any time they want, and sad thing is some programs could move to a Sunday afternoon and compete against and crush some NFL teams.
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Posted: 6/2/2014 10:04 PM
[/QUOTE] sad thing is some programs could move to a Sunday afternoon and compete against and crush some NFL teams.[/QUOTE]There is no way a college team could even dream of crushing an NFL team.
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Posted: 6/2/2014 10:47 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Funny thing is, the SEC is the engine driving this!

Secessionists 

 
L.C.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 12:10 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
... some programs could move to a Sunday afternoon and compete against and crush some NFL teams.

I often agree with you. This is not one of those times.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 12:24 AM
Votes are significantly controlled by controlling the message, controlling the media.  That's done with money.

Not much credibility to arguing that it's just a matter of votes such that one rich guy's vote is worth no more than a middle class person's vote.

"Follow the money" was ancient history millions of years before Watergate.

Follow the money kinda predominates--politics, football, life.
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 6/3/2014 2:40 AM
C Money wrote:expand_more
We are all Luddites now.

What am I missing here? Wanting to understand how this fits. 


The Luddites sought to protect good paying artisanal jobs ("the middle class") by slowing/destroying the implementation of technology


How facile.
 
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Posted: 6/3/2014 7:24 AM
Right now there is a least a pretense among the big conferences that they have "student athletes".
Kinda of like the Russia having amatuers in the Olympics,back in the day.

If they form their own confernce,with thier own rules ,including paying players,or if the NCAA gives away the store to them,that pretense is gone and they could most  be seen as nothing more then an NFL/NBA farm system.
Don't know if that will turn off fans.

I also wonder,wether the big 5 form their own conference or are given free reign by the NCAA,how this affects sports other then football and basketball.
C Money
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Posted: 6/3/2014 8:05 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Follow the money kinda predominates--politics, football, life.


The influence of money does not answer the more important questions (in politics, football, and life):
(A) How did the wealthy become wealthy?
(B) How do the wealthy remain wealthy?
(C) What happens if the wealthy are no longer wealthy (either voluntarily or involuntarily)?

If the Power 5 conferences go a Div IV route, and only play games among themselves, is that good for them? Probably not, since all that will happen will be a re-stratifying among them--Alabama will always be Alabama, but a team like Rutgers or Vanderbilt will go from a part of the country club to the one getting picked on for not having the latest designer fashion.

Is it good for non-Power 5 conference teams? An argument could be made that removing the money influence will make college football better, more "pure". I don't know that I buy that, and I also think you'd have the same re-stratification among the rest of us, just on a different scale. Eliminate the money games, and do you have the resources anymore to pay decent coaches, trainers, etc.? Do you have the resources to pay for proper equipment and medical treatment? Do you increase the risk of major injury to players as a result? If so, I don't think you can say football would be "better" without the money.

And this is before we get anywhere near non-football sports. Even including just MBB in the equation would dramatically change the money situation (nobody outside of the Big Blue Empire watches the tournament to see UK win again.....we want upsets and Cinderellas.)

So, we can't continue as we are, and we can't really split up either. Maybe college football really is doomed, and it's just a matter of when not if. I hope not, because I really enjoy watching college football. But it's an eventuality we need at least to contemplate.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 8:31 AM
There will be in the coming months a series of changes to the NCAA rules for the power 5 conferences. The NCAA has already agreed to let them do it. It will involve giving a stipend to players as well as a few other behind the scenes changes. 

Basically, the NCAA agreed to let the power conferences operate under their own rules because the power conferences were blocked from doing this a year or two ago by an all member vote. And then the power boys went to the NCAA and said, how much TV money would your basketball tournament make if our teams didnt play in it?

Keep in mind, the NCAA basketball tourney TV deal is something like 10 billion. It is about 90 percent of the NCAA revenue. One way to look at the NCAA is as a basketball tournament with a governing body attached.

So anyway, the NCAA rolled over and said ok you power conference guys can breakaway and play under special rules of your own devising. Just play in our tournament, please...The NCAA knows their whole structure is built on ground that is constantly shifting.

So anyway this summer or fall, you will see this split go public with an official vote.

We will have super FBS and lower FBS. The real question to me is what do the lower conferences like the MAC do. Do they match the big boys stipend (payment) to players? Or do they throw up their arms and cry about being a have not and do nothing? Obviously, the recruiting battles become even tougher for non-stipend schools once this begins.
Last Edited: 6/3/2014 8:32:17 AM by postlikeTrent
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Posted: 6/3/2014 9:32 AM
I think one of the things that will impact "lower FBS" schools is wether the NCAA lets the big 5 increase the number of players they can carry on scholarship/stipend.

If roster sizes stay the same,the impact won't be as big as if they can have a lot more people on their teams.

I know,back  in the bad old days,when there less restrictions on rosters,Alabama used to put kids on scholarships,just so other schools couldn't get them.

 
Last Edited: 6/3/2014 9:35:47 AM by rpbobcat
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Posted: 6/3/2014 12:59 PM
postlikeTrent wrote:expand_more
There will be in the coming months a series of changes to the NCAA rules for the power 5 conferences. The NCAA has already agreed to let them do it. It will involve giving a stipend to players as well as a few other behind the scenes changes.

Basically, the NCAA agreed to let the power conferences operate under their own rules because the power conferences were blocked from doing this a year or two ago by an all member vote. And then the power boys went to the NCAA and said, how much TV money would your basketball tournament make if our teams didnt play in it?

Keep in mind, the NCAA basketball tourney TV deal is something like 10 billion. It is about 90 percent of the NCAA revenue. One way to look at the NCAA is as a basketball tournament with a governing body attached.

So anyway, the NCAA rolled over and said ok you power conference guys can breakaway and play under special rules of your own devising. Just play in our tournament, please...The NCAA knows their whole structure is built on ground that is constantly shifting.

So anyway this summer or fall, you will see this split go public with an official vote.

We will have super FBS and lower FBS. The real question to me is what do the lower conferences like the MAC do. Do they match the big boys stipend (payment) to players? Or do they throw up their arms and cry about being a have not and do nothing? Obviously, the recruiting battles become even tougher for non-stipend schools once this begins.

I would say that the battles would be officially over if that happens and if they increase the number of schollies, we are totally left behind. I still think the big boys will play the little guys just like they always have, it'll be tougher to win one of those games that it is now. Who would turn down having their parents travel to some games paid for? There's no end to this once the flood gates open.
People love pro football, and there's going to be a lot more of it when these changes are made.
Last Edited: 6/3/2014 1:00:06 PM by colobobcat66
Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/3/2014 1:01 PM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
[There's no end to this once the flood gates open.



There's an end to the money. It won't spread across all of the schools in the "power" 5, and certainly not across all the players and all the sports within the "power" 5. That will cause significant problems. 

 
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Posted: 6/3/2014 1:57 PM
Here is an excerpt from an interview with OSU AD Gene Smith that ran on the Dispatch's website in May. 
Smith tips the hand of the power 5 in it. He also is lying when he says there is no timetable--it will happen this year...

http://buckeyextra.dispatch.com/content/stories/2013/05/0...

Q: There’s been some speculation that the NCAA could become obsolete, that the power conferences could essentially supersede the NCAA. Do you share that opinion?


A: Not really. That’s the wrong conversation. The NCAA is going through change. But I do believe we need to pause and look at our structure. I do believe we need to think of a different structure for certain schools like Ohio State, Michigan and Nebraska and Alabama and so on. There are probably 60-70 schools that are different than everybody else. We need to think about a different division for them, within the NCAA structure, not outside of it, a division that allows those schools to have its own legislation. The best example I can use is the $2,000 stipend (toward) the cost of attendance. There are schools that can afford it and there are schools that can’t. As far as the recruiting rules, our recruiting rules should be different than it is at Middle Tennessee State. They’re Division I and they’re voting on our legislation or the legislation we believe is applicable to our level. I think we need to pause. I think we need to have a conversation about, ‘Should there be a different division within the NCAA structure that allows X number of schools to be legislated differently, but within the structure?’

Q: You’ve given it some thought, obviously.

A: Oh yeah. A lot.

Q: Are you a leader in that movement?

A: There’s a lot of conversation right now. Yeah, I’m having conversations with a lot of my colleagues. We don’t know what that would take, but the conversation has started.

Q: Is there a time frame?

A: We’re not even on that. We’re just having the conversation about what’s the answer to the challenges that we have with our current structure. There are other ideas out there. My idea is not the only one. You’ll probably read and hear the ideas of other ADs and commissioners. The conversation has started about, ‘How do we address our challenges?’

Q: What do you think is different for the Middle Tennessee States than it is for the Ohio States?

A: We’ve created this monster, first of all. The membership has. Everyone says the NCAA like it’s some people sitting in Indianapolis in the back of a smoke-filled room. We voted all this stuff in and it’s flawed, a lot of it. One of the flaws that we used to have was so many pieces of our legislation that tried to take into consideration competitive balance and competitive equality, and that makes no sense. Really it doesn’t. You can’t take the Ohio State University and create legislation that allows a Middle Tennessee State to be as competitive as we are. It doesn’t happen. You can have all these rules where we’re operating under the same rules, but we still have an engine that they don’t have.

That’s no disrespect to them. When I was at Eastern Michigan University, I had a track coach come to me and talk about the things that Michigan and Michigan State had that we didn’t have. I said, ‘You’re awesome. You’re really good. If that’s where you want to be, go apply for a job at Michigan or Michigan State. I want to beat Toledo. I want to beat Bowling Green. I want to beat Central Michigan.’ I remember those times. I know what it’s like at that level. Eastern Michigan is not Michigan. In basketball, if they play 10 times, Eastern Michigan might get them one time. We’ve tried to legislate a level playing field when there’s no level playing field. What I’m proposing – and there are other models you’ll see surface – is to have a division inside the NCAA that says, ‘These schools can afford to pay a stipend. Let them do it.’ You can’t afford to do it. That’s fine. But don’t inhibit their ability to create opportunities for their young people.

Q: You’re talking about the five super conferences?

A: That’s really what it comes down to.

Q: The devil’s advocate argument is probably that you’ll make the difference between the haves and have-nots even greater.

A: Your point? Your point? See, that’s the argument, that we’ve always said, ‘We shouldn’t do that.’ I say, “Why? Isn’t that divide huge anyway? Do you think they’re going to be in the (football) playoff.’ When you look at the last 10 Final Fours, how many Cinderellas did you really have?

That’s why I say you stay within the NCAA structure because basketball is a different beast than football. You be a part of the NCAA basketball tournament that generates so much revenue that it helps those schools, because you can have some equalizers there periodically. So don’t break away from that. Do not do that because that hurts those opportunities at those schools that we contribute to. That’s just one example. You stay in the structure and you create ways where we’re beneficial to the structure to help those schools, but we’re not limited. All I’m talking about is legislation. I’m not talking about anything else.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 3:30 PM
The problem with Smith's comparison to men's b-ball is that it's easier to have traditional powerhouses in some of the smaller b-ball conferences because there's more parity in b-ball than there is in football.  In the past, schools like UNLV, Depaul and Gonzaga have been able to put together up to a decade of very good seasons.  Plus, the "power" conferences aren't all the same for b-ball as they are for football.  The Big East and A-10 (and to some extent the American) can be considered "power" conferences for b-ball but not football.

But even looking at the last ten men's b-ball final fours, as Smith suggests, nearly 20% of the 40 teams were from "non-power" conferences.  Seven teams from the "non-power" conferences made the final four.  Two -- L'ville ('05) & Memphis ('08) -- were CUSA at the time.  L'ville joined the Big East in the fall of '05; its appearance in the '05 final four was its first since winning the '86 title.  The other five were George Mason ('06), Butler ('10 & '11), VCU ('11) and Wichita St. ('13).

Another interesting fact is the dominance by a handful of schools.  18 of the 40 final four slots in the past ten years have been filled by just six schools -- MichSt, UNC, Florida, UCLA, UConn and Kenucky each have made three appearances.  Seven of the ten national championships came from that group.  Despite Smith's snobbery, the final four has said more about the strength of individual programs than about conferences.
Last Edited: 6/3/2014 3:31:45 PM by Pataskala
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 6/3/2014 4:07 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
... some programs could move to a Sunday afternoon and compete against and crush some NFL teams.

I often agree with you. This is not one of those times.


I think he means "crush" in terms of viewership, not beat them on the field.
 
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L.C.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 4:17 PM
postlikeTrent wrote:expand_more
."..You can’t take the Ohio State University and create legislation that allows a Middle Tennessee State to be as competitive as we are. ..."

Heavens no, you certainly can't create rules that might allow schools like  MTSU to be as competitive. That would be an abomination.

There is a huge factor that Mr Smith overlooks. One of the reasons the NCAA Basketball tournament is so popular is that it is widely inclusive. When it comes to the individual schools from the smaller conferences, individually they don't have nearly as many fans as Ohio State, but for every Wofford or Manhattan that makes it to March Madness, there is a conference they represent where each team has fans that root for and support their conference representative. Every school in Division I has a chance, no matter how remote, to win the championship, so fans from all over the country watch.

If you remove all those other teams, and leave only the power conferences, that leaves less people included. The MTSU's never win the National Championship anyway, but they have fans that are involved, and who watch not only MTSU games, but also other games as well. Remove them from the picture, and they may care even less about the power schools, and may have less interest in their season games, and even in the National Championship.

I do think they will get their way, but they may not be happy when they do. As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
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