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Topic: Perspective
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Bcat2
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:04 AM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
This analogy is so far off base. It was Lloyd Carr who lost to App. State. And RichRod never got the support from the administration to succeed at a high level at Michigan aka he wasn't a "Michigan" guy. His offense was great, but he could never implement a strong enough defense. He was constantly in rebuilding mode because players kept leaving and the AD didn't want him because they weren't satisfied with direction they were going. Frank has always had full support of the AD at Ohio.


You are correct about Appy State and I corrected my original post based on your input. However, I think that my analogy is on target. If he had been winning in those early years, they wouldn't have cared if he was a "Michigan man" or not. That was more a pretext than a real reason. If they had had more patience, I think RichRod would have eventually won at Michigan as he is now doing at Arizona. Over the years, I've seen this scenario a number of times, where an administration with a little more patience -- and the ability to fend off or ignore a loud but ignorant fanbase -- was rewarded in the end for not pulling the plug too soon. Admittedly that's harder, but not impossible to do, at a place like Michigan compared to OHIO.
I'll agree that RichRod probably would have succeeded had the AD been more patient and put all of their eggs into his collective basket. However, I still don't think that applies to Ohio. Frank has been at Ohio for 10 years. RichRod was at Michigan for three. It's a totally different scenario.
You are 100% correct, "totally different." Ten years ago Ohio was a program RichRod would not have taken on for love nor $$$$. Ten years later Ohio has somthing I think is very good. I invite you to visit with some families of the players. Ohio, since Solich, is a winning program, period. Since Solich Ohio is second to NIU in total wins among MAC schools. Probably, most of the people are now content and proud of what they now have. Some, those who would not be happy if they were hung with a new rope, are certain more could have/should have been acomplished. Me, I think Ohio is closer to the next conf title than Nebraska or Michigan for that matter. JMHO.
GoCats105
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:11 AM
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Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
This analogy is so far off base. It was Lloyd Carr who lost to App. State. And RichRod never got the support from the administration to succeed at a high level at Michigan aka he wasn't a "Michigan" guy. His offense was great, but he could never implement a strong enough defense. He was constantly in rebuilding mode because players kept leaving and the AD didn't want him because they weren't satisfied with direction they were going. Frank has always had full support of the AD at Ohio.


You are correct about Appy State and I corrected my original post based on your input. However, I think that my analogy is on target. If he had been winning in those early years, they wouldn't have cared if he was a "Michigan man" or not. That was more a pretext than a real reason. If they had had more patience, I think RichRod would have eventually won at Michigan as he is now doing at Arizona. Over the years, I've seen this scenario a number of times, where an administration with a little more patience -- and the ability to fend off or ignore a loud but ignorant fanbase -- was rewarded in the end for not pulling the plug too soon. Admittedly that's harder, but not impossible to do, at a place like Michigan compared to OHIO.
I'll agree that RichRod probably would have succeeded had the AD been more patient and put all of their eggs into his collective basket. However, I still don't think that applies to Ohio. Frank has been at Ohio for 10 years. RichRod was at Michigan for three. It's a totally different scenario.
You are 100% correct, "totally different." Ten years ago Ohio was a program RichRod would not have taken on for love nor $$$$. Ten years later Ohio has somthing I think is very good. I invite you to visit with some families of the players. Ohio, since Solich, is a winning program, period. Since Solich Ohio is second to NIU in total wins among MAC schools. Probably, most of the people are now content and proud of what they now have. Some, those who would not be happy if they were hung with a new rope, are certain more could have/should have been acomplished. Me, I think Ohio is closer to the next conf title than Nebraska or Michigan for that matter. JMHO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Toledo is #2 behind NIU in wins last 10 years. I'm just basing off my memory of Phil Steele's stat-packed preseason preview. He has a list of last three years, last five years and last 10.

I'll agree Ohio is probably closer than the other two, simply because it's probably easier to make a simple change and win the MAC than it is for the B1G. No question the program is in better hands than it was before. Before Frank it was almost laughable.
Bcat2
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:22 AM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
This analogy is so far off base. It was Lloyd Carr who lost to App. State. And RichRod never got the support from the administration to succeed at a high level at Michigan aka he wasn't a "Michigan" guy. His offense was great, but he could never implement a strong enough defense. He was constantly in rebuilding mode because players kept leaving and the AD didn't want him because they weren't satisfied with direction they were going. Frank has always had full support of the AD at Ohio.


You are correct about Appy State and I corrected my original post based on your input. However, I think that my analogy is on target. If he had been winning in those early years, they wouldn't have cared if he was a "Michigan man" or not. That was more a pretext than a real reason. If they had had more patience, I think RichRod would have eventually won at Michigan as he is now doing at Arizona. Over the years, I've seen this scenario a number of times, where an administration with a little more patience -- and the ability to fend off or ignore a loud but ignorant fanbase -- was rewarded in the end for not pulling the plug too soon. Admittedly that's harder, but not impossible to do, at a place like Michigan compared to OHIO.
I'll agree that RichRod probably would have succeeded had the AD been more patient and put all of their eggs into his collective basket. However, I still don't think that applies to Ohio. Frank has been at Ohio for 10 years. RichRod was at Michigan for three. It's a totally different scenario.
You are 100% correct, "totally different." Ten years ago Ohio was a program RichRod would not have taken on for love nor $$$$. Ten years later Ohio has somthing I think is very good. I invite you to visit with some families of the players. Ohio, since Solich, is a winning program, period. Since Solich Ohio is second to NIU in total wins among MAC schools. Probably, most of the people are now content and proud of what they now have. Some, those who would not be happy if they were hung with a new rope, are certain more could have/should have been acomplished. Me, I think Ohio is closer to the next conf title than Nebraska or Michigan for that matter. JMHO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Toledo is #2 behind NIU in wins last 10 years. I'm just basing off my memory of Phil Steele's stat-packed preseason preview. He has a list of last three years, last five years and last 10.

I'll agree Ohio is probably closer than the other two, simply because it's probably easier to make a simple change and win the MAC than it is for the B1G. No question the program is in better hands than it was before. Before Frank it was almost laughable.
Did not write #2 over last ten years. From the game notes:

AMONG THE BEST IN THE MAC
Ohio’s 65 wins since 2006 are the second-most victories by any
school in the Mid-American Conference during that period. Northern
Illinois is the only school that has more wins in that stretch.
1. Northern Illinois - 72
2. Ohio - 65
3. Central Michigan - 59
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:31 AM
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Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
This analogy is so far off base. It was Lloyd Carr who lost to App. State. And RichRod never got the support from the administration to succeed at a high level at Michigan aka he wasn't a "Michigan" guy. His offense was great, but he could never implement a strong enough defense. He was constantly in rebuilding mode because players kept leaving and the AD didn't want him because they weren't satisfied with direction they were going. Frank has always had full support of the AD at Ohio.


You are correct about Appy State and I corrected my original post based on your input. However, I think that my analogy is on target. If he had been winning in those early years, they wouldn't have cared if he was a "Michigan man" or not. That was more a pretext than a real reason. If they had had more patience, I think RichRod would have eventually won at Michigan as he is now doing at Arizona. Over the years, I've seen this scenario a number of times, where an administration with a little more patience -- and the ability to fend off or ignore a loud but ignorant fanbase -- was rewarded in the end for not pulling the plug too soon. Admittedly that's harder, but not impossible to do, at a place like Michigan compared to OHIO.
I'll agree that RichRod probably would have succeeded had the AD been more patient and put all of their eggs into his collective basket. However, I still don't think that applies to Ohio. Frank has been at Ohio for 10 years. RichRod was at Michigan for three. It's a totally different scenario.
You are 100% correct, "totally different." Ten years ago Ohio was a program RichRod would not have taken on for love nor $$$$. Ten years later Ohio has somthing I think is very good. I invite you to visit with some families of the players. Ohio, since Solich, is a winning program, period. Since Solich Ohio is second to NIU in total wins among MAC schools. Probably, most of the people are now content and proud of what they now have. Some, those who would not be happy if they were hung with a new rope, are certain more could have/should have been acomplished. Me, I think Ohio is closer to the next conf title than Nebraska or Michigan for that matter. JMHO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Toledo is #2 behind NIU in wins last 10 years. I'm just basing off my memory of Phil Steele's stat-packed preseason preview. He has a list of last three years, last five years and last 10.

I'll agree Ohio is probably closer than the other two, simply because it's probably easier to make a simple change and win the MAC than it is for the B1G. No question the program is in better hands than it was before. Before Frank it was almost laughable.
Did not write #2 over last ten years. From the game notes:

AMONG THE BEST IN THE MAC
Ohio’s 65 wins since 2006 are the second-most victories by any
school in the Mid-American Conference during that period. Northern
Illinois is the only school that has more wins in that stretch.
1. Northern Illinois - 72
2. Ohio - 65
3. Central Michigan - 59
I see Toledo with 69 wins in the past 10 years
Casper71
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:41 AM
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This is all dandy but most of us are talking the last 25 games or so. I wonder how many schools are above us in that time but I am too lazy to do that work. I'm sure it is more than just one though!
GoCats105
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:42 AM
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Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
This analogy is so far off base. It was Lloyd Carr who lost to App. State. And RichRod never got the support from the administration to succeed at a high level at Michigan aka he wasn't a "Michigan" guy. His offense was great, but he could never implement a strong enough defense. He was constantly in rebuilding mode because players kept leaving and the AD didn't want him because they weren't satisfied with direction they were going. Frank has always had full support of the AD at Ohio.


You are correct about Appy State and I corrected my original post based on your input. However, I think that my analogy is on target. If he had been winning in those early years, they wouldn't have cared if he was a "Michigan man" or not. That was more a pretext than a real reason. If they had had more patience, I think RichRod would have eventually won at Michigan as he is now doing at Arizona. Over the years, I've seen this scenario a number of times, where an administration with a little more patience -- and the ability to fend off or ignore a loud but ignorant fanbase -- was rewarded in the end for not pulling the plug too soon. Admittedly that's harder, but not impossible to do, at a place like Michigan compared to OHIO.
I'll agree that RichRod probably would have succeeded had the AD been more patient and put all of their eggs into his collective basket. However, I still don't think that applies to Ohio. Frank has been at Ohio for 10 years. RichRod was at Michigan for three. It's a totally different scenario.
You are 100% correct, "totally different." Ten years ago Ohio was a program RichRod would not have taken on for love nor $$$$. Ten years later Ohio has somthing I think is very good. I invite you to visit with some families of the players. Ohio, since Solich, is a winning program, period. Since Solich Ohio is second to NIU in total wins among MAC schools. Probably, most of the people are now content and proud of what they now have. Some, those who would not be happy if they were hung with a new rope, are certain more could have/should have been acomplished. Me, I think Ohio is closer to the next conf title than Nebraska or Michigan for that matter. JMHO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Toledo is #2 behind NIU in wins last 10 years. I'm just basing off my memory of Phil Steele's stat-packed preseason preview. He has a list of last three years, last five years and last 10.

I'll agree Ohio is probably closer than the other two, simply because it's probably easier to make a simple change and win the MAC than it is for the B1G. No question the program is in better hands than it was before. Before Frank it was almost laughable.
Did not write #2 over last ten years. From the game notes:

AMONG THE BEST IN THE MAC
Ohio’s 65 wins since 2006 are the second-most victories by any
school in the Mid-American Conference during that period. Northern
Illinois is the only school that has more wins in that stretch.
1. Northern Illinois - 72
2. Ohio - 65
3. Central Michigan - 59
Ok you didn't literally write #2, but you said "Since Solich Ohio is second to NIU in total wins among MAC schools," which would imply since 2005, not 2006 as you have pointed out above. And BTC found Toledo to have 69 wins. But if that number were going back to 2005, then Ohio would also have 69 wins if you add in the 4 wins from that year. So we're both correct.
Last Edited: 10/8/2014 11:43:04 AM by GoCats105
GoCats105
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:45 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
This analogy is so far off base. It was Lloyd Carr who lost to App. State. And RichRod never got the support from the administration to succeed at a high level at Michigan aka he wasn't a "Michigan" guy. His offense was great, but he could never implement a strong enough defense. He was constantly in rebuilding mode because players kept leaving and the AD didn't want him because they weren't satisfied with direction they were going. Frank has always had full support of the AD at Ohio.


You are correct about Appy State and I corrected my original post based on your input. However, I think that my analogy is on target. If he had been winning in those early years, they wouldn't have cared if he was a "Michigan man" or not. That was more a pretext than a real reason. If they had had more patience, I think RichRod would have eventually won at Michigan as he is now doing at Arizona. Over the years, I've seen this scenario a number of times, where an administration with a little more patience -- and the ability to fend off or ignore a loud but ignorant fanbase -- was rewarded in the end for not pulling the plug too soon. Admittedly that's harder, but not impossible to do, at a place like Michigan compared to OHIO.
I'll agree that RichRod probably would have succeeded had the AD been more patient and put all of their eggs into his collective basket. However, I still don't think that applies to Ohio. Frank has been at Ohio for 10 years. RichRod was at Michigan for three. It's a totally different scenario.
You are 100% correct, "totally different." Ten years ago Ohio was a program RichRod would not have taken on for love nor $$$$. Ten years later Ohio has somthing I think is very good. I invite you to visit with some families of the players. Ohio, since Solich, is a winning program, period. Since Solich Ohio is second to NIU in total wins among MAC schools. Probably, most of the people are now content and proud of what they now have. Some, those who would not be happy if they were hung with a new rope, are certain more could have/should have been acomplished. Me, I think Ohio is closer to the next conf title than Nebraska or Michigan for that matter. JMHO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Toledo is #2 behind NIU in wins last 10 years. I'm just basing off my memory of Phil Steele's stat-packed preseason preview. He has a list of last three years, last five years and last 10.

I'll agree Ohio is probably closer than the other two, simply because it's probably easier to make a simple change and win the MAC than it is for the B1G. No question the program is in better hands than it was before. Before Frank it was almost laughable.
Did not write #2 over last ten years. From the game notes:

AMONG THE BEST IN THE MAC
Ohio’s 65 wins since 2006 are the second-most victories by any
school in the Mid-American Conference during that period. Northern
Illinois is the only school that has more wins in that stretch.
1. Northern Illinois - 72
2. Ohio - 65
3. Central Michigan - 59
I see Toledo with 69 wins in the past 10 years
Did Toledo have to vacate any wins due to their point-shaving scandal? I can't find any evidence they did.
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:55 AM
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Not that any of this matters, but, if you go back to 2005, I added them up myself, and what I get is:

Total wins, Mac wins
NIU 79,54
Ohio 69,45
CMU 66,47
Toledo 64,45

From 2006 on:
NIU 72,48
Ohio 65,42
CMU 60,42
Toledo 55,39

From 2009 on:
NIU 57,37
Ohio 46,28
Toledo 42,31
CMU 34,22

Billy's 69 wins for Toledo would be for the period 2004-2013, and no, they didn't vacate any wins, so far as I know.
Last Edited: 10/8/2014 12:01:19 PM by L.C.
Casper71
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:59 AM
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Hey LC, you did from 2006 and 2009...now do from 2012 to current, please:)
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/8/2014 12:04 PM
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L.C. wrote:expand_more
Not that any of this matters, but, if you go back to 2005, I added them up myself, and what I get is:

Total wins, Mac wins
NIU 79,54
Ohio 69,45
CMU 66,47
Toledo 64,45

From 2006 on:
NIU 72,48
Ohio 65,42
CMU 60,42
Toledo 55,39

From 2009 on:
NIU 57,37
Ohio 46,28
Toledo 42,31
CMU 34,22

Billy's 69 wins for Toledo would be for the period 2004-2013, and no, they didn't vacate any wins, so far as I know.
Thanks, LC, after reading the other totals, I was like "damn" my counting skills are not that lost! Maybe I misunderstood the original statement, but I went back 10 years.
GoCats105
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Posted: 10/8/2014 12:17 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Not that any of this matters, but, if you go back to 2005, I added them up myself, and what I get is:

Total wins, Mac wins
NIU 79,54
Ohio 69,45
CMU 66,47
Toledo 64,45

From 2006 on:
NIU 72,48
Ohio 65,42
CMU 60,42
Toledo 55,39

From 2009 on:
NIU 57,37
Ohio 46,28
Toledo 42,31
CMU 34,22

Billy's 69 wins for Toledo would be for the period 2004-2013, and no, they didn't vacate any wins, so far as I know.
Thanks, LC, after reading the other totals, I was like "damn" my counting skills are not that lost! Maybe I misunderstood the original statement, but I went back 10 years.
10 years, 11 seasons
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Posted: 10/8/2014 12:29 PM
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Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Hey LC, you did from 2006 and 2009...now do from 2012 to current, please:)

During that time period, Ohio drops to 5th. Not top of the MAC, but still not as awful as you might think from some of the posts here:
NIU 28
BG 22
Toledo 20
Ball State 20
Ohio 19
CMU 16
Kent 15
Buffalo 15
L.C.
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Posted: 10/8/2014 12:30 PM
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Getting back to "Perspective", I gave my shorter term perspective above. My longer term perspective is that this downturn is caused by the timing of two separate things:
1. First, there was a dip in the overall quality of recruiting in 2010 and 2011 because of turnover at recruiting coordinators, and after that it improved again. From 2010 there are only a few players left. 2011 had some very good players in it, but had quite a few that have since left the program without ever playing a significant role.
2. Second, there was an amazing number of injuries during the 2012 season that took the wind out of the sails. Combined, they created the situation we have now - a bunch of very young but talented players, trying hard, but not yet up to the task.

I don't see anything fundamental wrong. I just see a temporary lull, and I expect the teams from 2015-2017 to be much better. For every Freshman getting time today, the 2017 team will have a grizzled Senior with 4 years experience. Given that Solich's contract runs through 2017, I think, by the time it runs out, all this will have passed.

Dredging up ancient history, think back to Bill Hess. His 1965 team got hit with a horrible number of injuries, and he went 0-10. Should he, or his staff have been fired? I don't know, but I do know that just a few years later came the 1968 season, and 1965 was forgotten.
Last Edited: 10/8/2014 12:32:38 PM by L.C.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 10/8/2014 11:45 PM
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L.C. wrote:expand_more
. . . Dredging up ancient history, think back to Bill Hess. His 1965 team got hit with a horrible number of injuries, and he went 0-10. Should he, or his staff have been fired? I don't know, but I do know that just a few years later came the 1968 season, and 1965 was forgotten.
Yes, I think that this is a very good parallel to the time we are going through now . . . but not as severe. Whatever befalls OHIO this season I predict that we won't go 0-12! ;-) Heck, we won't even lose 10 games . . . the most we can lose is 9. Now, this is really is putting things into perspective. :-0
Last Edited: 10/8/2014 11:47:05 PM by OhioCatFan
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