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Bcat2
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Posted: 5/8/2015 10:22 PM
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Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
Ok, now only coaches with winning records vs ranked teams are "A" list coaches. Solich was 11-14 vs ranked teams at Nebraska. I found an article on the winning vs ranked point. See the link. Six coaches make the cut. Somehow I think you worked very hard to find anything to support your point. I would bet there are many "great" coaches who do not meet that standard.

He can define "A" list any way he wants. By his definition Solich is "B" list coach, which isn't too bad. Others in the "B" list category would include Mark Richt, Paul Johnson, Bill Snyder, Bobby Petrino, Mark Dantonio, Brian Kelly, Urban Meyers, and Gary Patterson. That's not bad company.
I would put Mark Richt and Paul Johnson in the B list category. It comes down to the level of job you've done at those schools and for Solich to do much of nothing at Nebraska (by Nebraksas standards of course) I have a hard time giving him that A. No MAC Championship in 10 years at Ohio. 0-3 in MAC title games. How does he get an A for that?
Solich did "much of nothing at Nebraska." Really, did coach Solich kill your dog or something? He was dismissed in 2003 while 9-3, 58-19, Solich's 58 wins during his first six seasons as Nebraska's head coach exceeded those of his predecessors, Bob Devaney (53 wins) and Osborne (55 wins), both of whom are in the College Football Hall of Fame,Conf Champ in 1999, Big12 COY 1999 & 2001. Three top ten finishes (#2 in 99), coached Eric Crouch to a Heisman Trophy in 2001, there were also the 123 First Team Academic All-Conference and seven First Team Academic All-American Selections during his time.

Seriously Wes, Nebraska fans would dearly love to have those good old days again. He was dismissed after six seasons that were better than the first six seasons of the two college football hall of fame coaches that preceded him and you just can not give him any respect. Really?
He inherited a Nebraska program from Tom Osborn that was at the top of the world and dipped under his leadership. That would be like Saban moving on and Alabama promoted one his assistants to HC who followed with a bunch of 9-3 and 8-4 seasons. Would Alabama fans be happy about that?
And what in your reply actually diminishes coach Solich's achievements at Nebraska? Sure it does not beat coach Osborne's final five years of 60-3 overall, 37-0 in conference and 4-1 in bowls with 3 NC, but, is that now your new standard for "A" level work? You are still standing by your contention that coach Solich did "much of nothing" at Nebraska?
An A is given out when you take a program up a whole notch from where it was before. Nick Saban-Alabama (grade A). Led a historic program not only back to glory but to unprecedented achievement. Bill Snyder-Kansas State (grade A) Build a Top 15 power from one of the most hapless program at the top level. One rule about giving out the grades is there is no way to get an A without at least earning a conference championship. It did take Snyder 15 seasons to win a Big XII championship so I guess it would be fair to Frank to give him an A if he wins a MAC championship before he retires. Giving Frank an A without a MAC title is like giving a student A on a paper when he can't complete any sentences.
Right, conference championship. Coach Solich won the Big 12 in his second season, the one they finished 2nd in the coaches poll. Still the last one Nebraska has earned. Now it seems there is a random standard that he would have to have exceeded Osborne's best ever finish at Div 1. Can you get the bar any higher? Again, 58-19, Solich's 58 wins during his first six seasons as Nebraska's head coach exceeded those of his predecessors, Bob Devaney (53 wins) and Osborne (55 wins), both of whom are in the College Football Hall of Fame,Conf Champ in 1999, Big12 COY 1999 & 2001. Three top ten finishes (#2 in 99), coached Eric Crouch to a Heisman Trophy in 2001, there were also the 123 First Team Academic All-Conference and seven First Team Academic All-American Selections during his time. Definitely B level work, if you have some kind of axe to grind. Done here. Don't bother to reply.

Bcat2
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 5/8/2015 10:28 PM
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Arguendo, give an A to Coach for his first years.

With no MACC and pretty rank last 2.5 years, there ain't no recent A.

Try that at work--tell 'em you were great up until about 2.5 years ago so mediocre work should be now excused. See how that's accepted.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 5/8/2015 10:32 PM
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Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
Ok, now only coaches with winning records vs ranked teams are "A" list coaches. Solich was 11-14 vs ranked teams at Nebraska. I found an article on the winning vs ranked point. See the link. Six coaches make the cut. Somehow I think you worked very hard to find anything to support your point. I would bet there are many "great" coaches who do not meet that standard.

He can define "A" list any way he wants. By his definition Solich is "B" list coach, which isn't too bad. Others in the "B" list category would include Mark Richt, Paul Johnson, Bill Snyder, Bobby Petrino, Mark Dantonio, Brian Kelly, Urban Meyers, and Gary Patterson. That's not bad company.
I would put Mark Richt and Paul Johnson in the B list category. It comes down to the level of job you've done at those schools and for Solich to do much of nothing at Nebraska (by Nebraksas standards of course) I have a hard time giving him that A. No MAC Championship in 10 years at Ohio. 0-3 in MAC title games. How does he get an A for that?
Solich did "much of nothing at Nebraska." Really, did coach Solich kill your dog or something? He was dismissed in 2003 while 9-3, 58-19, Solich's 58 wins during his first six seasons as Nebraska's head coach exceeded those of his predecessors, Bob Devaney (53 wins) and Osborne (55 wins), both of whom are in the College Football Hall of Fame,Conf Champ in 1999, Big12 COY 1999 & 2001. Three top ten finishes (#2 in 99), coached Eric Crouch to a Heisman Trophy in 2001, there were also the 123 First Team Academic All-Conference and seven First Team Academic All-American Selections during his time.

Seriously Wes, Nebraska fans would dearly love to have those good old days again. He was dismissed after six seasons that were better than the first six seasons of the two college football hall of fame coaches that preceded him and you just can not give him any respect. Really?
He inherited a Nebraska program from Tom Osborn that was at the top of the world and dipped under his leadership. That would be like Saban moving on and Alabama promoted one his assistants to HC who followed with a bunch of 9-3 and 8-4 seasons. Would Alabama fans be happy about that?
And what in your reply actually diminishes coach Solich's achievements at Nebraska? Sure it does not beat coach Osborne's final five years of 60-3 overall, 37-0 in conference and 4-1 in bowls with 3 NC, but, is that now your new standard for "A" level work? You are still standing by your contention that coach Solich did "much of nothing" at Nebraska?
An A is given out when you take a program up a whole notch from where it was before. Nick Saban-Alabama (grade A). Led a historic program not only back to glory but to unprecedented achievement. Bill Snyder-Kansas State (grade A) Build a Top 15 power from one of the most hapless program at the top level. One rule about giving out the grades is there is no way to get an A without at least earning a conference championship. It did take Snyder 15 seasons to win a Big XII championship so I guess it would be fair to Frank to give him an A if he wins a MAC championship before he retires. Giving Frank an A without a MAC title is like giving a student A on a paper when he can't complete any sentences.
Right, conference championship. Coach Solich won the Big 12 in his second season, the one they finished 2nd in the coaches poll. Still the last one Nebraska has earned. Now it seems there is a random standard that he would have to have exceeded Osborne's best ever finish at Div 1. Can you get the bar any higher? Again, 58-19, Solich's 58 wins during his first six seasons as Nebraska's head coach exceeded those of his predecessors, Bob Devaney (53 wins) and Osborne (55 wins), both of whom are in the College Football Hall of Fame,Conf Champ in 1999, Big12 COY 1999 & 2001. Three top ten finishes (#2 in 99), coached Eric Crouch to a Heisman Trophy in 2001, there were also the 123 First Team Academic All-Conference and seven First Team Academic All-American Selections during his time. Definitely B level work, if you have some kind of axe to grind. Done here. Don't bother to reply.

Bcat2
Refusal to engage...hurt feelings?...take your ball and go home. SO TYPICAL.
Bcat2
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:26 AM
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Michael George ‏@OhioCoachGeorge 15m15 minutes ago

51 @OhioFootball players had a 3.0 or better this semester! Best semester in history #Academics

:), :)
Athens
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:20 AM
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For comparison sake I have every HC that has been at his school continuously as long as Frank Solich and listing how many conference championships they've won at that school. Only Gary Pinkle has been at his school longer without a conference championship.

28 Frank Beamer Virginia Tech (3 Big East, 4 ACC)
16 Bob Stoops Oklahoma (8 Big XII)
16 Kirk Ferentz Iowa (2 Big Ten)
15 Gary Patterson TCU (1 CUSA, 4 MWC, 1 Big XII)
14 Mark Richt Georgia (2 SEC)
14 Gary Pinkle, Missouri (5 division titles)
11 George O'leary UCF (2 CUSA, 2 AAC)
10 Frank Solich Ohio (3 division titles)
10 Mike Gundy Oklahoma St (1 Big XII)
10 Bronco Mendenhall BYU (2 MWC)
10 Kyle Whittingham Utah (1 MWC)
10 Les Miles LSU (2 SEC)
10 Steve Spurrier (1 division title)
Last Edited: 5/9/2015 11:21:00 AM by Athens
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:36 AM
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Would be interesting to compare where those schools were when the coach took over. Eg stoops took over an established winning record (which is why some consider him a failure) o'leary took over a non existent program and Frank took over a program that was a complete embarrassment.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 6:31 PM
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According to your table, Uncle Wes, Frank's doing better than one old ball coach:

10 Frank Solich Ohio (3 division titles)
10 Steve Spurrier (1 division title)

That's actually surprising.

You know, we all want to win a MACC. I was heartbroken after the NIU meltdown. But, I'm optimistic for the future of Ohio football. Frank's a very good coach. He's assembled a good staff. The general trajectory of the program is up. Those who complain about the last 22.5 games or whatever remind me of what happens when you look at stock graphs. You can look at one for brief period of time and think the stock is going gang busters, but you widen it out and see the big picture over long period of time, and you see that the recent spurt in a totally different perspective.
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Posted: 5/11/2015 3:19 PM
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Frank played tailback in a single-wing offense in high school that won the city championship (my alma mater, Holy Name). That could be the answer to our quarterback quandary.

"Four backs make up the heart of the single wing offense. These include the wingback, fullback, tailback and quarterback (also known as the blocking back). In most cases, the snap is generally tossed into the backfield by the center instead of being handed off. Offensive lineman are also lined up in an unusual fashion, with two on one side of the center and four on the other side.

The snap will often go straight to the tailback or fullback, as the quarterback may be required to block and act as a field general (this is why he's often referred to as the blocking back in single-wing football playbooks). The role of the tailback is critical in the single-wing, as he may be called upon to block, run, pass and even punt. Fullbacks in the single wing tend to be larger, as they will often be asked to block and run inside for tough yardage. Wingbacks may run a passing route, or they may move to the line and assist the tight end with a double team block."
Last Edited: 5/11/2015 3:20:24 PM by Old Zone
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/11/2015 7:20 PM
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Wow a four-back set! If I counted correctly, that would be four potential RBs in the same backfield. I'll bet a certain CPA in land of fruits and nuts is salivating over just the thought of that configuration.

Was it Oberlin that used the single-wing for years after everyone else had abandoned it and won many games 'cause no one remembered how to defend it? I know if was some OAC school that was otherwise not known for extreme athletic prowess. But, I'm not sure if Oberlin is the right one. Anyone else remember?
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Posted: 5/11/2015 7:47 PM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Wow a four-back set! If I counted correctly, that would be four potential RBs in the same backfield. I'll bet a certain CPA in land of fruits and nuts is salivating over just the thought of that configuration.

Was it Oberlin that used the single-wing for years after everyone else had abandoned it and won many games 'cause no one remembered how to defend it? I know if was some OAC school that was otherwise not known for extreme athletic prowess. But, I'm not sure if Oberlin is the right one. Anyone else remember?
It's more like 3 guards in the backfield with the Single Wing Back.

And no, it was Denison who utilized the Single Wing under Keith Piper who was at Denison from 1962-92. It was an absolute joy to watch when ran right with a person who understood the system.
Last Edited: 5/11/2015 7:51:25 PM by BillyTheCat
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Posted: 5/11/2015 7:55 PM
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Oh, and OCF, chances are you've met Coach Piper in the past as he was an avid Civil War enthusiast and partook in reenactments like yourself.
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Posted: 5/11/2015 9:28 PM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Wow a four-back set! If I counted correctly, that would be four potential RBs in the same backfield. I'll bet a certain CPA in land of fruits and nuts is salivating over just the thought of that configuration.

Was it Oberlin that used the single-wing for years after everyone else had abandoned it and won many games 'cause no one remembered how to defend it? I know if was some OAC school that was otherwise not known for extreme athletic prowess. But, I'm not sure if Oberlin is the right one. Anyone else remember?
Denison under Coach Keith Piper...
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Posted: 5/11/2015 10:16 PM
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Thanks, Mike and BTC for setting me straight. Well, at least I had the right league as before 1984 both were in the OAC! ;-) Of course, if you go back far enough so were OU and OSU. Any links to diagrams that would show some typical plays run out of the single-wing formation.

Edit: Thanks for the Civil War info on Piper. I'll have to see if anyone in my Sons of Union Veterans camp knew him. There are some in the camp older than I, as strange as that may seem.
Last Edited: 5/11/2015 10:19:34 PM by OhioCatFan
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/11/2015 10:28 PM
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Oh boy, is the single-wing Monroe's offense. Look at this description from Piper's Wikipedia page: "Piper's single wing was 'predicated on deception, with the backs crossing paths, the linemen executing traps and the center disguising the target of his snap.' With the criss-crossing backs and fake handoffs, one reporter noted that 'the football sometimes is as hard to find as a hockey puck.'"
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Posted: 5/11/2015 11:09 PM
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There are so many different things you can do out of the Single Wing. My favorite series of the set is the Buck Lateral Series, this has some of the spinning action that some equate with th Single Wing. But a lot of it is power football that uses formations and angles to create more hats at a point of attack than the defense can account for.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 1:27 AM
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I'd love to see how the single wingle works.

I know that pure power, size and or speed might overwhelm it ultimately. But it sure would confuse and be effective for at least a little bit.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 11:36 AM
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Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
I'd love to see how the single wingle works.

I know that pure power, size and or speed might overwhelm it ultimately. But it sure would confuse and be effective for at least a little bit.
Monroe, here is a link to a High School in Massachusetts that has been running this for years, and they run it as well as any High School I've ever seen. You will notice a lot of the running plays resemble some wing T, buck series, and the old Power Sweeps, you will also see the "spinning" that a lot of people associate with the Single Wing. Personally I find this a fun offense to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDbuqaLZ16E
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Posted: 5/12/2015 11:38 AM
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Here is another example with much better athletes, but not run nearly as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vfC14SssF4
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Posted: 5/12/2015 11:41 AM
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Last Edited: 5/12/2015 11:43:11 AM by BillyTheCat
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/12/2015 11:44 AM
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Thanks for posting, BTC. That is very interesting to watch. On the one play where all the blocking backs go the same direction as the ball carrier, it's almost like a legal version of the flying wedge (sans arm locking). I agree it's an enjoyable offense to watch.
Last Edited: 5/12/2015 4:17:07 PM by OhioCatFan
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 5/12/2015 1:29 PM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Oh boy, is the single-wing Monroe's offense. Look at this description from Piper's Wikipedia page: "Piper's single wing was 'predicated on deception, with the backs crossing paths, the linemen executing traps and the center disguising the target of his snap.' With the criss-crossing backs and fake handoffs, one reporter noted that 'the football sometimes is as hard to find as a hockey puck.'"
My high school team ran a combination of single wing and wing-T. As a guard, I loved the blocking schemes; lots of good angles and downfield blocking assignments.

The single wing playbook included something called the Buck Lateral Series. Snap went to the fullback. He would start with what appeared a dive through the 1 hole. He could complete the dive play, OR:
* hand it to the quarterback who could keep it and run a wide keeper, or
* pitch it to the tailback going wide, or
* drop back for a pass

We ran a balanced line and on some plays would "flop" with the right and left sides switching along with the wing back moving to tailback and the tailback to the wing.

Wing backs were expected foremost to block and receive passes but also run reverses - both inside and outside.

The quarterback my senior season - we averaged more than 30pts - was brawny with decent speed and a nice touch (threw about a dozen TD passes). He went to Morehead State where became all-conference - as an offensive lineman! Years later he became Morehead's head coach.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 2:14 PM
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Thanks very much for posting that, Billy. You can see that it still influences the game, in the form of the Wildcat offense, and that is also impacts a lot of the running plays out of the Pistol. I would think they could steal other parts of it, too.

I do wonder what would happen if someone really ran it at the college level, or even at the FCS level. It would sure cause teams to do a lot of special preparation in just a week.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 8:22 PM
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Mike Johnson wrote:expand_more
Oh boy, is the single-wing Monroe's offense. Look at this description from Piper's Wikipedia page: "Piper's single wing was 'predicated on deception, with the backs crossing paths, the linemen executing traps and the center disguising the target of his snap.' With the criss-crossing backs and fake handoffs, one reporter noted that 'the football sometimes is as hard to find as a hockey puck.'"
My high school team ran a combination of single wing and wing-T. As a guard, I loved the blocking schemes; lots of good angles and downfield blocking assignments.

The single wing playbook included something called the Buck Lateral Series. Snap went to the fullback. He would start with what appeared a dive through the 1 hole. He could complete the dive play, OR:
* hand it to the quarterback who could keep it and run a wide keeper, or
* pitch it to the tailback going wide, or
* drop back for a pass

We ran a balanced line and on some plays would "flop" with the right and left sides switching along with the wing back moving to tailback and the tailback to the wing.

Wing backs were expected foremost to block and receive passes but also run reverses - both inside and outside.

The quarterback my senior season - we averaged more than 30pts - was brawny with decent speed and a nice touch (threw about a dozen TD passes). He went to Morehead State where became all-conference - as an offensive lineman! Years later he became Morehead's head coach.
Mike, see above, the Buck Lateral Series is my favorite as well.
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Posted: 5/12/2015 10:13 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Oh boy, is the single-wing Monroe's offense. Look at this description from Piper's Wikipedia page: "Piper's single wing was 'predicated on deception, with the backs crossing paths, the linemen executing traps and the center disguising the target of his snap.' With the criss-crossing backs and fake handoffs, one reporter noted that 'the football sometimes is as hard to find as a hockey puck.'"
My high school team ran a combination of single wing and wing-T. As a guard, I loved the blocking schemes; lots of good angles and downfield blocking assignments.

The single wing playbook included something called the Buck Lateral Series. Snap went to the fullback. He would start with what appeared a dive through the 1 hole. He could complete the dive play, OR:
* hand it to the quarterback who could keep it and run a wide keeper, or
* pitch it to the tailback going wide, or
* drop back for a pass

We ran a balanced line and on some plays would "flop" with the right and left sides switching along with the wing back moving to tailback and the tailback to the wing.

Wing backs were expected foremost to block and receive passes but also run reverses - both inside and outside.

The quarterback my senior season - we averaged more than 30pts - was brawny with decent speed and a nice touch (threw about a dozen TD passes). He went to Morehead State where became all-conference - as an offensive lineman! Years later he became Morehead's head coach.
Mike, see above, the Buck Lateral Series is my favorite as well.
That offense was so potent that when breaking the huddle, we clapped hands and in our best bass voices called out, "Go long." Which we did often as our average scoring play was about 30 yards.
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Posted: 5/15/2015 2:59 AM
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What a fun set. How often do teams typically pass out of this formation? And who are the receivers?

It was good to see Mike Johnson out there playing football on that video!
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