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Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Which Record would you rather have over the last 10 years?
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Robert Fox
12/2/2015 2:43 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
I've never understood the insistence on 85 scholarships. That would be like having 28 volleyball players on scholarship when only 7 play at one time. The NFL gets it done with 53.

When comparing to the NFL keep in mind that the limit is the "active roster". If a player gets hurt, they can acquire a different one by the next week. Also keep in mind that all 53 are "ready to play", whereas in college many of the kids are still in the developmental stage, and some are not "ready to play" until their Junior year. At least 1/3 of the players of the 85 players would fit the mold of "not ready to play". By the time you include both factors, the 53 player NFL limit is probably less limiting than the 85 at the college level.

As compared to other sports, I can't comment on that. The limits are presumably set in a reasonable way such that there are about enough players to do the job, but not enough than one team can stockpile all the talent. In a sport where it's easier to come straight out of high school and play I would expect a lower limit, and in a sport where a player needs time to lift and build size, I'd expect a higher one.
The way scholarships are distributed also differs among college teams. It seems more common in football to provide "full" scholarships, where in other sports, volleyball perhaps, single scholarships are divided twice or even three times.
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giacomo
12/2/2015 4:52 PM
LC, you have a sensible approach to the expectations of Ohio athletics. I agree with you 100%. It's only a game and somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. For the people who take it too seriously and call a loss a "disaster", I wonder about them sometimes. Did they ever play athletics? What kind of work do they do? When they are at work and had a bad day, was it a disaster? Should they be fired for having three bad days?

We had a fast start to the season and then lost some games, only to rebound and finish 8-4. A fine season by any standard. It's false thinking to believe that we should have won those other games. "We coulda, shoulda, woulda" is their mantra, and by whose standard? Can anyone get beaten by a better team? It does happen and the true measure of a team and player is what you do after the loss. But then they say that there should be no better team than our team and that's why changes need to be made. Round and round it goes.
Last Edited: 12/2/2015 4:52:56 PM by giacomo
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bshot44
12/2/2015 8:20 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
LC, you have a sensible approach to the expectations of Ohio athletics. I agree with you 100%. It's only a game and somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. For the people who take it too seriously and call a loss a "disaster", I wonder about them sometimes. Did they ever play athletics? What kind of work do they do? When they are at work and had a bad day, was it a disaster? Should they be fired for having three bad days?

We had a fast start to the season and then lost some games, only to rebound and finish 8-4. A fine season by any standard. It's false thinking to believe that we should have won those other games. "We coulda, shoulda, woulda" is their mantra, and by whose standard? Can anyone get beaten by a better team? It does happen and the true measure of a team and player is what you do after the loss. But then they say that there should be no better team than our team and that's why changes need to be made. Round and round it goes.
1. What makes you and your opinion superior to others? If people have higher expectations and put more into Ohio football than you, why make them out to be wrong or there is something wrong with them? It's their opinion and decision...they have the right to it just like you have the right to have your opinion.

2. True measure of a team is what they do after a loss? Probably not a good way to judge this program in recent years if you're trying to cast them in a really positive light. More times than not, they've followed a loss by getting trucked again (and sometimes again). Dealing with adversity has been a real struggle for this program in recent years.
Last Edited: 12/2/2015 8:34:29 PM by bshot44
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Alan Swank
12/2/2015 8:32 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
I've never understood the insistence on 85 scholarships. That would be like having 28 volleyball players on scholarship when only 7 play at one time. The NFL gets it done with 53.

When comparing to the NFL keep in mind that the limit is the "active roster". If a player gets hurt, they can acquire a different one by the next week. Also keep in mind that all 53 are "ready to play", whereas in college many of the kids are still in the developmental stage, and some are not "ready to play" until their Junior year. At least 1/3 of the players of the 85 players would fit the mold of "not ready to play". By the time you include both factors, the 53 player NFL limit is probably less limiting than the 85 at the college level.

As compared to other sports, I can't comment on that. The limits are presumably set in a reasonable way such that there are about enough players to do the job, but not enough than one team can stockpile all the talent. In a sport where it's easier to come straight out of high school and play I would expect a lower limit, and in a sport where a player needs time to lift and build size, I'd expect a higher one.
The way scholarships are distributed also differs among college teams. It seems more common in football to provide "full" scholarships, where in other sports, volleyball perhaps, single scholarships are divided twice or even three times.
Not in volleyball or men's and women's basketball. There are rookies and second and third year players in the NFL that would fall in that not ready to play model especially quarterbacks.
Last Edited: 12/2/2015 8:33:47 PM by Alan Swank
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L.C.
12/3/2015 12:31 AM
SWBC wrote:expand_more
...It's been my understanding that Coach Solich's goal at Ohio was to elevate the program to the point where the success would continue long after he was no longer coaching. There are probably more changes which have been made but some I know of are the remodeling of Peden Tower from a tall storage facility to state of the art team meeting and study rooms and the locker room upgrades. The improvement and addition of the weight lifting facility, the IPF, and now the soon to be built academic center in the north end of the stadium. While some may point to the division IA arms race, those things still need to get done and the successes under coach Solich have made that possible....
This is an excellent point, and one I have made several times with futility. Solich is a good coach, but his contributions go far beyond that, into the realm of program building, and the contributions he is making will help the program succeed for years to come. Most coaches come to the MAC with dreams of a 2-year stint, like Babers, and then off to the big bucks and glamour. When your perspective is 2-3 years and out, you have no incentive to build the program for the long term; it's all about short term success.

Solich came to Ohio to stay, and thus came with a totally different perspective. Interestingly, the last coach to come to the MAC to stay, and to retire, was Novak at NIU, and even though NIU didn't become a dominating team under him, his contributions to NIU helped set the stage for what NIU has become.

You mention many of the program building contributions that are in the form of buildings, but don't forget the ties he is building to football in the state of Ohio. They spend a lot of time doing camps around the state, and coaching clinics, and with each passing year they seem to take even more recruits from the sate of Ohio. They also have established a walkon program where players can come in and succeed. All these things promote closer ties to football coaches, players, and parents across the state, and set the stage for ongoing success in the years ahead, long after Solich is gone. The ties he continues to build to Ohio also help to explain why Ohio consistently has the best attendance in the MAC>
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allen
12/3/2015 9:27 AM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
LC, you have a sensible approach to the expectations of Ohio athletics. I agree with you 100%. It's only a game and somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. For the people who take it too seriously and call a loss a "disaster", I wonder about them sometimes. Did they ever play athletics? What kind of work do they do? When they are at work and had a bad day, was it a disaster? Should they be fired for having three bad days?

We had a fast start to the season and then lost some games, only to rebound and finish 8-4. A fine season by any standard. It's false thinking to believe that we should have won those other games. "We coulda, shoulda, woulda" is their mantra, and by whose standard? Can anyone get beaten by a better team? It does happen and the true measure of a team and player is what you do after the loss. But then they say that there should be no better team than our team and that's why changes need to be made. Round and round it goes.
1. What makes you and your opinion superior to others? If people have higher expectations and put more into Ohio football than you, why make them out to be wrong or there is something wrong with them? It's their opinion and decision...they have the right to it just like you have the right to have your opinion.

2. True measure of a team is what they do after a loss? Probably not a good way to judge this program in recent years if you're trying to cast them in a really positive light. More times than not, they've followed a loss by getting trucked again (and sometimes again). Dealing with adversity has been a real struggle for this program in recent years.

+1
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giacomo
12/3/2015 4:10 PM
Opinions are cheap. Reality is expensive. Many people who follow sports have an irrational idea about what the outcomes should be. They want their team to win and when it doesn't, they want answers. They want heads to roll. I admit that it amuses me.
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OhioCatFan
12/3/2015 4:45 PM
Compare the following semi-official philosophies of these programs:

OHIO STATE

"I Wanna Go Back to Ohio State . . .
We'll win the game or know the reason why!
And when we win the game, we'll buy a keg of booze!
And we'll drink to old Ohio,
'Til we wobble in our shoes!
Ohio, Ohio
We'll win the game or know the reason why!"

NEBRASKA -- and now, I believe, OHIO

"Not the victory but the action; Not the goal but the game; In the deed the glory."

-- Hartley Burr Alexander (1873–1939)

===================================================

Personally, I've always thought the Ohio State philosophy was obnoxious and this song seems to be to capsulize it: If we don't win, heads will roll. By birthright we should win every game.

Contrast this with the Nebraska philosophy, which I think over the last decade has become, at least in part, the OHIO philosophy: We work and fight hard to win the game (for the victory), but in the end the glory is in the effort. It is the deed of complete dedication to goal that counts. If that complete dedication is missing, then heads might roll, but the emphasis is on the complete dedication to the goal and striving to meet it. This is not "everyone gets a trophy." It's you've got to dedicate yourself completely to the goal and strive with relentless determination to win. Perhaps, this is a subtle difference, but to me it makes all the difference.

Go OHIO!
Last Edited: 12/4/2015 10:10:32 AM by OhioCatFan
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Bcat2
12/3/2015 4:49 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
LC, you have a sensible approach to the expectations of Ohio athletics. I agree with you 100%. It's only a game and somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. For the people who take it too seriously and call a loss a "disaster", I wonder about them sometimes. Did they ever play athletics? What kind of work do they do? When they are at work and had a bad day, was it a disaster? Should they be fired for having three bad days?

We had a fast start to the season and then lost some games, only to rebound and finish 8-4. A fine season by any standard. It's false thinking to believe that we should have won those other games. "We coulda, shoulda, woulda" is their mantra, and by whose standard? Can anyone get beaten by a better team? It does happen and the true measure of a team and player is what you do after the loss. But then they say that there should be no better team than our team and that's why changes need to be made. Round and round it goes.
1. What makes you and your opinion superior to others? If people have higher expectations and put more into Ohio football than you, why make them out to be wrong or there is something wrong with them? It's their opinion and decision...they have the right to it just like you have the right to have your opinion.

2. True measure of a team is what they do after a loss? Probably not a good way to judge this program in recent years if you're trying to cast them in a really positive light. More times than not, they've followed a loss by getting trucked again (and sometimes again). Dealing with adversity has been a real struggle for this program in recent years.

+1
You both promote that, denying the players the success they deserve from their current streak of W3 with scoreboard on NIU. The players deserve better from their "fans." JMHO
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giacomo
12/3/2015 8:12 PM
OhioCatFan, I love your post. That is the essence of competition. You give it all you have and if it's not good enough, you strive to be better the next game. Success doesn't mean you win every game. LC said it in an earlier post. What is the value of having a stable presence like Solich do for the program long term? When we finally must replace him it will be apparent.
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OhioCatFan
12/3/2015 8:21 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
OhioCatFan, I love your post. That is the essence of competition. You give it all you have and if it's not good enough, you strive to be better the next game. Success doesn't mean you win every game. LC said it in an earlier post. What is the value of having a stable presence like Solich do for the program long term? When we finally must replace him it will be apparent.


Thanks. This a thought that's been gestating in my mind for quite a while. I would personally like to see that quote etched somewhere in Peden as it is on the Nebraska stadium.
Last Edited: 12/3/2015 8:21:59 PM by OhioCatFan
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L.C.
12/4/2015 12:05 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Compare the following semi-official philosophies of these programs:

OHIO STATE

"I Wanna Go Back to Ohio State . . .
We'll win the game or know the reason why!
And when we win the game, we'll buy a keg of booze!
And we'll drink to old Ohio,
'Til we wobble in our shoes!
Ohio, Ohio
We'll win the game or know the reason why!"

NEBRASKA -- and now, I believe, OHIO

"Not the victory but the action; Not the goal but the game; In the deed the glory."

-- Hartley Burr Alexander (1873–1939)

===================================================

Personally, I've always thought the Ohio State philosophy was obnoxious and this song seems to be to capsulize it: If we don't win, heads will roll. By birthright we should win every game.

Contrast this with the Nebraska philosophy, which I think over the last decade has become, at least in part, the OHIO philosophy: We work and fight hard to win the game (for the victory), but in the end the glory is in the effort. It is the deed of complete dedication to goal that counts. If that compete dedication is missing, then heads might roll, but the emphasis is on the complete dedication to the goal and striving to meet it. This is not "everyone gets a trophy." It's you've got to dedicate yourself completely to the goal and strive with relentless determination to win. Perhaps, this is a subtle difference, but to me it makes all the difference.

Go OHIO!

I think you've captured exactly the meaning of that quote, and the spirit of competition in general.
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Monroe Slavin
12/4/2015 12:30 AM
Great point: Solich is probably the highest paid employee at the University and, when he was hired, winning was never part of the bargain.

And you guys have your fun calling me predictable and arrogant and cloying.

L.C. now that you've been kind enough to decree that one can only tell the quality of a running back if the line is in good playing order, please go root for another team and stop enabling surpassing mediocrity at the school that I love. Hey, why'd Nebraska fire Solich if he was something like 58-18..think about it.

You'd keep Bo Jackson on the bench because, despite his devastating success, well, you know, he has that defect in that he runs with his pads high or his pass blocking isn't perfect.

Heavens, if Irons went out and was All-American, you blind, illogical jokers would lay it to Solich's incredible wisdom in holding him out until he was ready.

I supported Solich probably more than any of you for the first 8 years or so. But when it turned, I recognized, instead of telling everyone how beautiful the emperor's clothes are.


[I greatly apologize. I swore..and stated to some..that I'd never post here again. But I just can't let this pure garbage-fest go unopposed.

Some of you guys would be happy if Solich went 0-12 or 12-0, as if there's no difference and any difference would not be meaningful. All the good stuff you identify-- clean program, players get a bit better--are baseline minimal requirements but you want to erect a statue and name the stadium after Solich for meeting these minumums.]
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OhioCatFan
12/4/2015 1:01 AM
Whatever!
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allen
12/4/2015 2:12 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Great point: Solich is probably the highest paid employee at the University and, when he was hired, winning was never part of the bargain.

And you guys have your fun calling me predictable and arrogant and cloying.

L.C. now that you've been kind enough to decree that one can only tell the quality of a running back if the line is in good playing order, please go root for another team and stop enabling surpassing mediocrity at the school that I love. Hey, why'd Nebraska fire Solich if he was something like 58-18..think about it.

You'd keep Bo Jackson on the bench because, despite his devastating success, well, you know, he has that defect in that he runs with his pads high or his pass blocking isn't perfect.

Heavens, if Irons went out and was All-American, you blind, illogical jokers would lay it to Solich's incredible wisdom in holding him out until he was ready.

I supported Solich probably more than any of you for the first 8 years or so. But when it turned, I recognized, instead of telling everyone how beautiful the emperor's clothes are.


[I greatly apologize. I swore..and stated to some..that I'd never post here again. But I just can't let this pure garbage-fest go unopposed.

Some of you guys would be happy if Solich went 0-12 or 12-0, as if there's no difference and any difference would not be meaningful. All the good stuff you identify-- clean program, players get a bit better--are baseline minimal requirements but you want to erect a statue and name the stadium after Solich for meeting these minumums.]
+1
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Monroe Slavin
12/4/2015 2:25 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Whatever!
Typical. Go to your usual lack of reasoning and failure to be available to respond when the opposition to your views has substance, makes sense.
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The Situation
12/4/2015 6:31 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Whatever!
Typical. Go to your usual lack of reasoning and failure to be available to respond when the opposition to your views has substance, makes sense.
Do you honestly believe yourself when you write garbage statements like this?

I mean seriously:

"Typical. Go to your usual lack of reasoning and failure to be available to respond when the opposition to your views has substance, makes sense."

Maybe I'll just respond to everything you post with this statement.
Last Edited: 12/4/2015 6:37:30 AM by The Situation
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The Situation
12/4/2015 6:55 AM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
1. What makes you and your opinion superior to others?
What makes you and your opinion equal to others? (because your mom/dad/teacher said so...?)

In all seriousness I'd like to read your justification for why all opinions are equal.
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bshot44
12/4/2015 8:53 AM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
LC, you have a sensible approach to the expectations of Ohio athletics. I agree with you 100%. It's only a game and somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. For the people who take it too seriously and call a loss a "disaster", I wonder about them sometimes. Did they ever play athletics? What kind of work do they do? When they are at work and had a bad day, was it a disaster? Should they be fired for having three bad days?

We had a fast start to the season and then lost some games, only to rebound and finish 8-4. A fine season by any standard. It's false thinking to believe that we should have won those other games. "We coulda, shoulda, woulda" is their mantra, and by whose standard? Can anyone get beaten by a better team? It does happen and the true measure of a team and player is what you do after the loss. But then they say that there should be no better team than our team and that's why changes need to be made. Round and round it goes.
1. What makes you and your opinion superior to others? If people have higher expectations and put more into Ohio football than you, why make them out to be wrong or there is something wrong with them? It's their opinion and decision...they have the right to it just like you have the right to have your opinion.

2. True measure of a team is what they do after a loss? Probably not a good way to judge this program in recent years if you're trying to cast them in a really positive light. More times than not, they've followed a loss by getting trucked again (and sometimes again). Dealing with adversity has been a real struggle for this program in recent years.

+1
You both promote that, denying the players the success they deserve from their current streak of W3 with scoreboard on NIU. The players deserve better from their "fans." JMHO
Let me say this really slow so you understand it

I.

Am.

Not.

Denying.

The.

Players.

Current.

Success.

From.

The.

Current.

Three.

Game.

Win.

Streak.

Or.

The.

NIU.

Win.

Ok?

I've stated many times that the way they ended the regular season (and hopefully the bowl game) is great....and I hope it's a springboard to success at the highest level in 2016.

But you CANNOT continue to ignore what happened before that or act like it never happened....this year, last year, the year before, etc.

Until this program shows they're finally past these ridiculous double-digit losses (some complete blowouts) to the top half of the MAC when they matter most, it's hard for me to say everything is great.

But continue to bury your head in the sand tell the boys they deserve better from their "fans"....that they need to be more like you....celebrating victory, embracing mediocrity and ignoring any sign of failure.
Last Edited: 12/4/2015 10:22:04 AM by bshot44
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bshot44
12/4/2015 8:56 AM
allen wrote:expand_more
Great point: Solich is probably the highest paid employee at the University and, when he was hired, winning was never part of the bargain.

And you guys have your fun calling me predictable and arrogant and cloying.

L.C. now that you've been kind enough to decree that one can only tell the quality of a running back if the line is in good playing order, please go root for another team and stop enabling surpassing mediocrity at the school that I love. Hey, why'd Nebraska fire Solich if he was something like 58-18..think about it.

You'd keep Bo Jackson on the bench because, despite his devastating success, well, you know, he has that defect in that he runs with his pads high or his pass blocking isn't perfect.

Heavens, if Irons went out and was All-American, you blind, illogical jokers would lay it to Solich's incredible wisdom in holding him out until he was ready.

I supported Solich probably more than any of you for the first 8 years or so. But when it turned, I recognized, instead of telling everyone how beautiful the emperor's clothes are.
+1
Yup. +1

But I seriously have no problem with building a statue of Frank or naming our field after him even if he doesn't win MACC. What he's done here has been truly amazing and something no one else has ever accomplished with the Ohio football program.

He's built a rock solid foundation and whether it's him or someone else leading, this program will hopefully continue to grow and become a championship contender year in and year out. That's the next step for this program.
Last Edited: 12/4/2015 9:06:13 AM by bshot44
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bshot44
12/4/2015 9:00 AM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
Opinions are cheap. Reality is expensive. Many people who follow sports have an irrational idea about what the outcomes should be. They want their team to win and when it doesn't, they want answers. They want heads to roll. I admit that it amuses me.
I agree people can be totally irrational about sports.

Browns fans expecting them to go 16-0

Irrational. Yes.

Buckeye fans going bonkers cause they don't win a national title EVERY year.

Irrational. Yes.

Me, as an Ohio fan, not wanting to see the Bobcats get blown out vs good MAC teams for a 4th straight year.....not really irrational.

Bobcat fans that refuse to acknowledge the blowouts and act like they never happened. Irrational.

There are fans on both sides of the irrational spectrum.
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OhioCatFan
12/4/2015 10:22 AM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
. . . Bobcat fans that refuse to acknowledge the blowouts and act like they never happened. Irrational.
Who in the heck has done that? This is a Monroe-like strawman. I acknowledged those blowouts. I was probably at least, if not more, upset by them than anyone on this board. However, after we started our winning streak and beat NIU I felt much better and choose to dwell on the recent positive rather than the blowout streak. That doesn't mean that everything is A-OK in Bobcat football land, but it does mean that I and some others see great hope for the future given such factors as this improvement and the steady increase we've seen in the quality of the recruiting classes.

BTW, Monroe, my "whatever" answer to your post was simply frustration that you had served up the same old drivel once again. I've answer your drivel with substantive answers on many occasions but you are just no longer worth the effort to respond to. As one thread on here indicated, you are past your prime and need to pass the #FireSolich torch on to a younger poster who can posit fresh ideas and be less conservative and more innovative in argumentation.
Last Edited: 12/4/2015 10:28:32 AM by OhioCatFan
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The Situation
12/4/2015 10:28 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
. . . Bobcat fans that refuse to acknowledge the blowouts and act like they never happened. Irrational.
Who in the heck has done that? This is a Monroe-like strawman.
Maybe we should say it slow so he can understand it.

The Bobcats lost to BG 24-62, Buffalo 17-41, WMU 14-49.

All in agreement say I.

I have little doubt that Bcat and everyone else here acknowledges the blowout losses.
Last Edited: 12/4/2015 10:31:45 AM by The Situation
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The Situation
12/4/2015 10:33 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
As one thread on here indicated, you are past your prime and need to pass the #FireSolich torch on to a younger poster who can posit fresh ideas and be less conservative and more innovative in argumentation.
If Monroe retires from posting and things really get boring you and Ruck can start a FakeMonroeSlavin account. It's better than the real thing.
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OhioCatFan
12/4/2015 10:38 AM
The Situation wrote:expand_more
As one thread on here indicated, you are past your prime and need to pass the #FireSolich torch on to a younger poster who can posit fresh ideas and be less conservative and more innovative in argumentation.
If Monroe retires from posting and things really get boring you and Ruck can start a FakeMonroeSlavin account. It's better than the real thing.
ROTFL! ;-)

I'd love to see a debate between FakeJeffMcKinney and FakeMonroeSlavin. I think we could charge an admission fee.
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