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Ohio Football Topic
Topic: EMU Faculty, Students: Drop Out Of Division 1 Football
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RPO R6V
4/25/2016 9:12 PM
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/04/25... /
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RSBobcat
4/25/2016 9:48 PM
Reply from the MAC - OK
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Jeff McKinney
4/25/2016 10:15 PM
This is sanity, so don't expect the report to be received well.
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Pataskala
4/25/2016 10:23 PM
Saw the Real Sports episode discussed in the article. Granted, it wasn't necessarily unbiased, but when a school (Rutgers, I think) gives a losing coach a $200,000 raise in the same week it cuts library services by $500,000 there should be some rethinking. I also thought it was interesting that when student athletes complained about not having enough to eat, their stipends were raised almost immediately, but a goodly percentage of other students go hungry or homeless in order to pay tuition and little seems to be done for them.

As for EMU, one reason mentioned for the lack of attendance (other than a pretty sad football program) is that many students have to work weekends in order to make ends meet. I thought the student they featured -- a 32-year-old mother of three who's a senior at EMU -- was maybe atypical, but I imagine that most EMU kids are from a blue-collar background and can't rely on mom and dad to cover all the costs.
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OhioBobcat
4/25/2016 10:24 PM
EMU has a D-1 football team??? Huh....who would have known? They say you learn something new every day. ;)
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Ohio69
4/26/2016 9:14 AM
I have no clue why EMU keeps up the charade. None.

It is interesting that they noted that athletics bring in revenue from students. If they were able to count tuition and room/board I bet a lot of "non-revenue" sports at least break even...
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Bobcatbob
4/26/2016 9:52 AM
It's an interesting paradox. To wit, The endeavor we're engaged in has unquantifiable social and recreational benefits, not to mention allure for potential contributors or investors but it will never contribute to the bottom line. What do we do?

This statement is mostly true at the D1 level and certainly through every lower level of collegiate sports. Do you think Horizon League schools sponsor athletics to make money? How about YSU? Denison?

If your argument is that you are p#$%ing away money in D1 and that is wrong, how do you support p^%$ing away smaller amounts of money to compete at any level?

Athletics can't be justified on an economic basis but it is part of the core, if not the mission, of a university.

If you just want to do it on the cheap, at least be honest about it.

The writer asks: "Should the university be saddling students with unnecessary debt for athletics programs that added little to no value to their education"?

This question should be changed to "How much debt should we saddle students with..." because unless you drop all athletic programs, the answer to the original question is always going to be "Yes".
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OhioStunter
4/26/2016 11:15 AM
I read the whole report. What is interesting is that one of the solutions is for EMU to join the Horizon League. Yet, while the report complains that too much of EMU's athletics are subsidized by the university (80%), the many Horizon League members are about the same or worse:

Oakland - 81%
Wisconsin-Milwaukee - 80%
Cleveland St. - 82%
Wright St. - 79%
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Recovering Journalist
4/26/2016 11:27 AM
The hard questions being asked at EMU are not as irrelevant for the rest of the MAC - including here - as many of us like to think. Division I football costs huge amounts of money that is subsidized by students as tuition significantly outpaces inflation. We as a "the best fans in the MAC" offer pathetic financial support for our athletic programs (under $800,000 per year despite more than 200,000 alumni). A lot is being spent to pretend we have a chance to hit the lottery and make Power 5 money. How long can the model last before G5 schools (and the parents and students paying their bills) cry uncle? I also think football faces a long-term existential threat due to head injuries. I just think major change in the not too distant future is inevitable. I say all this as a donor and season ticket holder.
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Recovering Journalist
4/26/2016 11:29 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
I read the whole report. What is interesting is that one of the solutions is for EMU to join the Horizon League. Yet, while the report complains that too much of EMU's athletics are subsidized by the university (80%), the many Horizon League members are about the same or worse:

Oakland - 81%
Wisconsin-Milwaukee - 80%
Cleveland St. - 82%
Wright St. - 79%
There's a big difference between 81% of $11.5 million (Oakland) and a similar percent of $33 million (EMU).
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GoCats105
4/26/2016 11:53 AM
RSBobcat wrote:expand_more
Reply from the MAC - OK
Reply from MAC member schools - you were our ONE win we could count on!
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BillyTheCat
4/26/2016 12:39 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
The hard questions being asked at EMU are not as irrelevant for the rest of the MAC - including here - as many of us like to think. Division I football costs huge amounts of money that is subsidized by students as tuition significantly outpaces inflation. We as a "the best fans in the MAC" offer pathetic financial support for our athletic programs (under $800,000 per year despite more than 200,000 alumni). A lot is being spent to pretend we have a chance to hit the lottery and make Power 5 money. How long can the model last before G5 schools (and the parents and students paying their bills) cry uncle? I also think football faces a long-term existential threat due to head injuries. I just think major change in the not too distant future is inevitable. I say all this as a donor and season ticket holder.

+1
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The Optimist
4/26/2016 12:53 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
I also think football faces a long-term existential threat due to head injuries.

This is my biggest concern with investing in the growth of a football program.

I believe Ohio University is in a significantly better position to succeed in and benefit from investments attempting to grow our athletics program than anyone else in the MAC, let alone EMU (who I personally rank in the worst position) but that argument is irrelevant (at least from football perspective) if the sport as a whole comes crashing down due to head injuries.

I don't view EMU's case as particularly relevant to our own situation, beyond the press it generating exciting those incapable of differentiating our situations.
Last Edited: 4/26/2016 12:54:09 PM by The Optimist
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L.C.
4/26/2016 1:37 PM
EMU has a very nice stadium that I believe could seat 30,000, but they have virtually no attendance. Since it has a large commuter student base, even the students don't go to the games. So, why do they persist? I really don't know.

The interesting thing about this proposal is that rather than a proposal to drop to FCS, which wouldn't save any money, the proposal is to drop football entirely, or to drop to a non-scholarship level. This would indeed save some money.
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Recovering Journalist
4/26/2016 1:56 PM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=Recovering Journalist]

I don't view EMU's case as particularly relevant to our own situation, beyond the press it generating exciting those incapable of differentiating our situations.
You're really earning your screen name, because Ohio's budget and subsidy is not that dissimilar from its peers in the MAC. Yes, we get bigger crowds, and yes, that matters, but those crowds don't come close to paying the bills.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances /
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Alan Swank
4/26/2016 4:24 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
The hard questions being asked at EMU are not as irrelevant for the rest of the MAC - including here - as many of us like to think. Division I football costs huge amounts of money that is subsidized by students as tuition significantly outpaces inflation. We as a "the best fans in the MAC" offer pathetic financial support for our athletic programs (under $800,000 per year despite more than 200,000 alumni). A lot is being spent to pretend we have a chance to hit the lottery and make Power 5 money. How long can the model last before G5 schools (and the parents and students paying their bills) cry uncle? I also think football faces a long-term existential threat due to head injuries. I just think major change in the not too distant future is inevitable. I say all this as a donor and season ticket holder.
That amount is even more pathetic when you consider that much of it is required support. If attendance, as defined by the need to or want to go to a game, goes down, that amount could plummet. Regardless, these are legitimate questions to ask and they will be asked if this happens at Eastern. Until someone actually does it, it will just remain a conversation as opposed to a serious discussion or study group.
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Alan Swank
4/26/2016 4:27 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=Recovering Journalist]

I don't view EMU's case as particularly relevant to our own situation, beyond the press it generating exciting those incapable of differentiating our situations.
You're really earning your screen name, because Ohio's budget and subsidy is not that dissimilar from its peers in the MAC. Yes, we get bigger crowds, and yes, that matters, but those crowds don't come close to paying the bills.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances /
Do a sort, highest to lowest, on that last column for a quick and concise picture of support percentage.
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Recovering Journalist
4/26/2016 6:52 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
That amount is even more pathetic when you consider that much of it is required support. If attendance, as defined by the need to or want to go to a game, goes down, that amount could plummet. Regardless, these are legitimate questions to ask and they will be asked if this happens at Eastern. Until someone actually does it, it will just remain a conversation as opposed to a serious discussion or study group.
I agree with your point on some of that amount hinging on attendance, but I disagree with you on "required" support, as you put it. You can easily go to all the games in all sports without paying a seat fee. If you want prime space and special amenities, you have to pay for it just like almost anywhere else. You rail against paying for it every chance you get, but it's not a unique situation. No matter where it comes from, we can both agree that less than $800,000 in annual support sucks.
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The Optimist
4/26/2016 8:26 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=Recovering Journalist]

I don't view EMU's case as particularly relevant to our own situation, beyond the press it generating exciting those incapable of differentiating our situations.
You're really earning your screen name, because Ohio's budget and subsidy is not that dissimilar from its peers in the MAC. Yes, we get bigger crowds, and yes, that matters, but those crowds don't come close to paying the bills.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances /
As I recently stated in another thread, I originally chose this screen name sarcastically because I felt this board was so overly negative. I've played to my moniker over the years for fun, but this thread is not one of those times.

That link you posted... If you click onto OHIO, you get a breakdown of our revenues and expenses each year for the last ten years. I copy/pasted into Excel and whipped up some quick 10 year growth %'s

REVENUE

TICKET SALES
109%
CONTRIBUTIONS
352%
RIGHTS / LICENSING
170%
STUDENT FEES
60%
SCHOOL FUNDS
378%
STUDENT FEES + SCHOOL FUNDS (Makes sense to combine these two I think)
76%
OTHER
62%
TOTAL REVENUES
99%



EXPENSES

COACHING / STAFF
58%
SCHOLARSHIPS
52%
FACILITIES / OVERHEAD
20311% (from link, we only spent 8k here in 05)
OTHER
95%
TOTAL EXPENSES
81%


...

Interesting. Keep that growth coming.
Last Edited: 4/26/2016 8:28:12 PM by The Optimist
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Recovering Journalist
4/26/2016 9:04 PM
Optimist,

The growth you cite is nice, but if I have $10 and it grows 900%, I still only have $100. When it comes to ticket sales, contributions (I've already stated that crap figure) and licensing rights (most recent figure I could find was $300,000), we probably don't even pay the salaries of the whole football coaching staff, let alone support the department.

Growth of student fees and all the other fees you cite is a BAD thing for your argument. Growth of expenses is good from a competitive standpoint, but again bad for your argument.

I happen to think athletics are an important part of both the atmosphere and educational opportunities at a university (hence worth investing in), but it's easier for me to say when I'm not incurring debt to help pay for it. As college gets more expensive, you can count on increased scrutiny for costly athletic subsidies, and that's an issue for every G5 school, from EMU to Ohio.
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Alan Swank
4/26/2016 10:54 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
That amount is even more pathetic when you consider that much of it is required support. If attendance, as defined by the need to or want to go to a game, goes down, that amount could plummet. Regardless, these are legitimate questions to ask and they will be asked if this happens at Eastern. Until someone actually does it, it will just remain a conversation as opposed to a serious discussion or study group.
I agree with your point on some of that amount hinging on attendance, but I disagree with you on "required" support, as you put it. You can easily go to all the games in all sports without paying a seat fee. If you want prime space and special amenities, you have to pay for it just like almost anywhere else. You rail against paying for it every chance you get, but it's not a unique situation. No matter where it comes from, we can both agree that less than $800,000 in annual support sucks.
Yes and no. I just bought concert tickets for a show in Chicago on July 1. Where I sat depended on one thing, how quick my fingers were on the keyboard at 6 this morning and how quick my internet connection was. When faced with my seat "assignment" I could either buy them or pass. Whether I rail against it or not, and I do, is not the point. It's an accounting gimmick to count my "contribution" as a donation. It's a fee/membership payment/etc. If we didn't have this requirement, annual support would be less than $250K to the ad fund and I would go back to give sport specific money which doesn't count today.
Last Edited: 4/26/2016 10:56:16 PM by Alan Swank
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perimeterpost
4/27/2016 1:14 AM
why would EMU have to drop out of D1, why not just drop to FCS?

EMU gets $833K/yr for the next 10yrs from the ESPN TV contract. Without D1 football there is no TV revenue. EMU football gets a minimum of $1M from the CFP over the next 12yrs. How much revenue do all the other sports combined generate?
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The Optimist
4/27/2016 8:04 AM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
Optimist,

The growth you cite is nice, but if I have $10 and it grows 900%, I still only have $100. When it comes to ticket sales, contributions (I've already stated that crap figure) and licensing rights (most recent figure I could find was $300,000), we probably don't even pay the salaries of the whole football coaching staff, let alone support the department. [/QUOTE]
The figures given from that link are different than your numbers here. As far as 900% growth taking you from $10 to $100, that's one period. Equally valuable in the growth formula is compounding that over time. Ohio isn't there yet... Gotta keep plugging along. When you site our low giving rates, that sounds to me like opportunity for us to gain a lot more... I don't believe we are anywhere near our ceiling.

Growth of student fees and all the other fees you cite is a BAD thing for your argument. Growth of expenses is good from a competitive standpoint, but again bad for your argument.

Correct. I wanted to include all of the categories they had to give a complete picture. Just posting the revenue would've been beneficial to my argument, but that isn't an accurate picture. What I take from those numbers though, is that the revenue categories have grown more than the expense categories.
There has been A TON of talk about coaching salaries rising at Ohio. Well, when our ticket sales and contributions are rising higher, I don't think coaching salaries rising is all that crazy. Even the student fees have grown at a fraction of the other revenue categories.

I'd be VERY curious to see a breakout of the TV dollars with YOY trends. That graph has to look freaky exponential. Next time there is a thread complaining about ESPN, MACtion or the bowl games, I might have to dig up the numbers on the MAC TV contracts over the last 20 years with the payouts to members and throw together something there. Not everything is so cloudy...

[QUOTE]I happen to think athletics are an important part of both the atmosphere and educational opportunities at a university (hence worth investing in), but it's easier for me to say when I'm not incurring debt to help pay for it. As college gets more expensive, you can count on increased scrutiny for costly athletic subsidies, and that's an issue for every G5 school, from EMU to Ohio.

Student debt wouldn't be eliminated by removing Ohio athletics, or reducing it to where we weren't spending millions.

Students who don't want to take on any debt, and aren't able to pay for a college education without doing so, should strongly consider attending a community college for your first two years. This notion that Ohio University should eliminate the "extras" to lower costs for students begins to get away from Ohio as a University. Ohio is not EMU where you've got a high % of students commuting... We've got one of the best residential campuses around.

There ARE options for a "cheap" education out there. No "extras" you just go in, learn, go home. Ohio University offers the college experience. And it offers it as well as anyone, IMO.
Last Edited: 4/27/2016 8:09:28 AM by The Optimist
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Alan Swank
4/27/2016 8:36 AM
[/QUOTE]
There ARE options for a "cheap" education out there. No "extras" you just go in, learn, go home. Ohio University offers the college experience. And it offers it as well as anyone, IMO. [/QUOTE]This is an interesting point. Two questions, what exactly is the college experience for the average student at OU and is that an outdated expectation? I had a great time in college as I'm sure many on here did but is that really a sustainable experience in this day and age?
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Robert Fox
4/27/2016 8:54 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Two questions, what exactly is the college experience for the average student at OU and is that an outdated expectation? I had a great time in college as I'm sure many on here did but is that really a sustainable experience in this day and age?
It is if people are willing to pay for it. Apparently, applications are increasing so athletic expenses don't seem to be a problem, at least not a problem that deters incoming freshmen.
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