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Ohio Football Topic
Topic: General Chaos
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GoCats105
9/14/2016 2:34 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
So, editing your list, and adding Brigham Young:
1. Boise State - 14 straight bowl appearances, 16 in the last 17
Brigham Young - 11 straight bowl appearances
3. Navy - 12 bowls in the last 13 years
Cincinnati - 9 bowls in the last 10 years, 10 in the last 12
Northern Illinois - 9 bowls in the last 10 years
Nevada - 9 bowls in the last 10 years
7. Houston - 8 bowls in the last 10 years, 10 in the last 13
East Carolina - 8 bowls in the last 10 years
Air Force - 8 bowls in the last 10 years
10. Ohio - 7 bowls in the last 10 years
Tulsa - 7 bowls in the last 10 years
Southern Miss - 7 bowls in the last 10 years, 15 in the last 19
Central Michigan - 7 bowls in the last 10 years
Fresno State - 7 bowls in the last 10 years
14. San Diego State - 6 bowls in the last 10 years
Bowling Green - 6 bowls in the last 10 years
Central Florida - 6 bowls in the last 10 years
17. Marshall - 5 bowls in the last 10 years
Rice - 5 bowls in the last 10 years
Toledo - 5 bowls in the last 10 years
Western Michigan - 5 bowls in the last 10 years
Arkansas State - 5 bowls in the last 10 years
21. Colorado State - 4 bowls in the last 10 years
Utah State - 4 bowls in the last 10 years
Louisiana-Lafayette - 4 bowls in the last 10 years
Troy - 4 bowls in the last 10 years

So, of 60 or so G-5 schools, Ohio is tied for 10th.

For what it's worth, the overall win percentage of G5 teams over the last ten years:
1. Boise State .856
2. Brigham Young .715
3. Cincinnati .695
4. Houston .667
5. Navy .654
6. Northern Ill .644
7. Ohio .585
8. East Carolina .577
9. Nevada .569
Tulsa .569
11. CMU .546
12. Marshall .543
13. Fresno St. .535
14. BG .527
15. La-Lafayette .516
16. MTSU .512
17. San Diego State .512
18. La-Tech .508
19. Ball State .504
20. Troy .500

Note that since there are about 60 G5 team, the average G5 team has a losing record. That's fairly obvious, since most of the time when P5 teams play G5 teams, the P5 team wins.
We can remove BYU from this list, because I believe they are considered amongst the P5 like Norte Dame is now.

The few programs I thought were interesting were Navy, Southern Miss and Nevada. I realized Navy was a good football program but didn't realize how many bowl games they had been to.

And if you take out Southern Miss's dreadful 2012-2014 seasons, its possible they would still be working on a consecutive winning season streak (it ended at 18 in 2012).

Nevada has just quietly built good program out in Reno that no one really talks about. Yet every year they seem to be doing something well.
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GoCats105
9/14/2016 2:39 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I think the longer this goes on and the more bowl games that get introduced, we may have to take a step back and realize that's not the best measuring stick for a good coach. Number of wins, win percentage and some other things might be better.
I'm not in the Frank sucks camp, but I'm not in the love Frank camp necessarily either. More to the point for me, I feel like his sticking with the same staff for so long has created something of a "staleness" in some cases. The one that comes to mind is in some things they do on offense.

The reason I quoted this part of the conversation though is that I fully agree that simply getting to a bowl game these days isn't what it used to be. When almost every 6-6 or 7-6 teams get a bowl bid, that's no longer a measuring stick for a really good program. It's kind of like college basketball. We used to get excited about 20 win seasons, whereas now it doesn't mean as much.
That's just another reason why the NCAA Tournament bid means so much in college basketball. I don't really think we can compare an NCAA Tournament bid to bowl games. Unless the bowl game was a major bowl in the rotation bowls (Rose, Sugar, Fiesta, Peach, Cotton, Orange) or if they finally developed a playoff to include everyone, the NCAA Tournament is always going to mean more to me.
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Monroe Slavin
9/14/2016 2:39 PM
Exeellent work.

Clearly Solich is the greatest coach ever.


Now, a) consider our strength of schedule, 3-6 patsies per year. Wouldn't winning 60% of games in the SEC or PAC-12 be a bit more impressive.

b) Answer the questions. They are fair questions:

1) How long do we give him until lack of a MAC title is meaningful?

2) If we know going in that the next coach won't MAC title for 11 years, will you want him er or hhired?

3) Tell fans of other schools Solich's game/opponent/season records thru the OHIO years and see if they'd want him hired at their school?



Or, you can be narrow minded and judge based on the initial assumption that this is a great staff...instead of taking a relatively objective look.

Nobody's ever contradicted my assertion that I used to be as big a Solich fan as anyone here. Circumstances/results changed...and so I did.
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CA Bobcat
9/14/2016 2:45 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Exeellent work.

Clearly Solich is the greatest coach ever.


Now, a) consider our strength of schedule, 3-6 patsies per year. Wouldn't winning 60% of games in the SEC or PAC-12 be a bit more impressive.

b) Answer the questions. They are fair questions:

1) How long do we give him until lack of a MAC title is meaningful?

2) If we know going in that the next coach won't MAC title for 11 years, will you want him er or hhired?

3) Tell fans of other schools Solich's game/opponent/season records thru the OHIO years and see if they'd want him hired at their school?



Or, you can be narrow minded and judge based on the initial assumption that this is a great staff...instead of taking a relatively objective look.

Nobody's ever contradicted my assertion that I used to be as big a Solich fan as anyone here. Circumstances/results changed...and so I did.
"Circumstances" changed, whatever that means. Results changed for the better since he's been here. So, perhaps it boils down to the point that your expectations must have changed, especially considering you were happy at one time even without a MACC. Putting people into a category based on their disagreement with you is as ignorant on this board as it is in life.
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OU_Country
9/14/2016 2:46 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
For what it's worth, the overall win percentage of G5 teams over the last ten years:
1. Boise State .856
2. Brigham Young .715
3. Cincinnati .695
4. Houston .667
5. Navy .654
6. Northern Ill .644
7. Ohio .585
8. East Carolina .577
9. Nevada .569
Tulsa .569
11. CMU .546
12. Marshall .543
13. Fresno St. .535
14. BG .527
15. La-Lafayette .516
16. MTSU .512
17. San Diego State .512
18. La-Tech .508
19. Ball State .504
20. Troy .500

Note that since there are about 60 G5 team, the average G5 team has a losing record. That's fairly obvious, since most of the time when P5 teams play G5 teams, the P5 team wins.
I'd be interested to see these numbers versus strictly FBS opponents, since many teams play at least 1 FCS school a year. Ohio would still be in the list, and being up around 10th in this list or better is better than I would have predicted. As a side note, I'm actually surprised by Toledo's absence.
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L.C.
9/14/2016 3:01 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I'd be interested to see these numbers versus strictly FBS opponents, since many teams play at least 1 FCS school a year. Ohio would still be in the list, and being up around 10th in this list or better is better than I would have predicted. As a side note, I'm actually surprised by Toledo's absence.

Oops, thanks for that catch. I compiled the list myself, and accidentally left out Toledo, who comes in at .565. A corrected list:

1. Boise State .856
2. Brigham Young .715
3. Cincinnati .695
4. Houston .667
5. Navy .654
6. Northern Ill .644
7. Ohio .585
8. East Carolina .577
9. Nevada .569
Tulsa .569
11. Toledo .565
12. CMU .546
13. Marshall .543
14. Fresno St. .535
15. BG .527
16. La-Lafayette .516
17. MTSU .512
18. San Diego State .512
19. La-Tech .508
20. Ball State .504
21. Troy .500

As for the FBS games, if you take those out, it will make a difference in the numbers, shifting them all down, but it shouldn't change the order very much, since almost all teams play them, and play them for the same reason - to get more home games. Ohio would still have a winning record with FBS games removed, but I suspect that only about 15 G5 teams (about 1/4 of the G5 teams) would remain over .500.

As a side note, I see that for Monroe there is no middle ground between "greatest coach ever" and "worse than average", an excellent example of twisting reality.
Last Edited: 9/14/2016 3:07:26 PM by L.C.
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OU_Country
9/14/2016 3:43 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
I'd be interested to see these numbers versus strictly FBS opponents, since many teams play at least 1 FCS school a year. Ohio would still be in the list, and being up around 10th in this list or better is better than I would have predicted. As a side note, I'm actually surprised by Toledo's absence.

Oops, thanks for that catch. I compiled the list myself, and accidentally left out Toledo, who comes in at .565. A corrected list:

1. Boise State .856
2. Brigham Young .715
3. Cincinnati .695
4. Houston .667
5. Navy .654
6. Northern Ill .644
7. Ohio .585
8. East Carolina .577
9. Nevada .569
Tulsa .569
11. Toledo .565
12. CMU .546
13. Marshall .543
14. Fresno St. .535
15. BG .527
16. La-Lafayette .516
17. MTSU .512
18. San Diego State .512
19. La-Tech .508
20. Ball State .504
21. Troy .500

As for the FBS games, if you take those out, it will make a difference in the numbers, shifting them all down, but it shouldn't change the order very much, since almost all teams play them, and play them for the same reason - to get more home games. Ohio would still have a winning record with FBS games removed, but I suspect that only about 15 G5 teams (about 1/4 of the G5 teams) would remain over .500.

As a side note, I see that for Monroe there is no middle ground between "greatest coach ever" and "worse than average", an excellent example of twisting reality.
Thanks for compiling the numbers. It definitely puts things into perspective.
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OhioStunter
9/14/2016 4:09 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Now, a) consider our strength of schedule, 3-6 patsies per year. Wouldn't winning 60% of games in the SEC or PAC-12 be a bit more impressive.

[/QUOTE]Absolutely. But we play in the MAC.

b) Answer the questions. They are fair questions:

1) How long do we give him until lack of a MAC title is meaningful?
Again, if that is the only goal, then you don't give him long. If the goals are what I outlined earlier in this thread, and he's delivering on them, you keep him. We seem to be at an impasse on what the goals are.

2) If we know going in that the next coach won't MAC title for 11 years, will you want him er or hhired?
If I know the future of college football, I'm visiting Vegas a lot. If I know that over an 11-year span, our coach will win have 80 wins, 7 bowl appearances and only 2 losing seasons, I would take that. But let me ask you a question: If you knew that over the next 11 years, you would win a MAC title, but it only came with 48 wins and 9 losing seasons, would you still take it? (That's how Buffalo has performed over the past 11 years)

[QUOTE=Monroe Slavin]

3) Tell fans of other schools Solich's game/opponent/season records thru the OHIO years and see if they'd want him hired at their school?
Is this a question?
Last Edited: 9/14/2016 4:10:25 PM by OhioStunter
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Monroe Slavin
9/14/2016 4:12 PM
How many times do I have to repeat: Yes, good job..though hardly remarkable..for Solich to have recovered from the short Knorr downturn which followed the Grobe remarkable turnaround.

But I reject the 'we're not as bad as we used to be..y'know when we were the worst D1 team for years and years...so be happy with Solich and staff' thinking.

This staff has been here 11 years. The recovery was pretty much complete in about year 3.

Now, this staff should be judged on a higher, realistic, achievable, better standard than 'stank.'


Answer my three questions.

Consider the crashing losses of the last 3+ years.
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BillyTheCat
9/14/2016 4:37 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
I'd be interested to see these numbers versus strictly FBS opponents, since many teams play at least 1 FCS school a year. Ohio would still be in the list, and being up around 10th in this list or better is better than I would have predicted. As a side note, I'm actually surprised by Toledo's absence.

Oops, thanks for that catch. I compiled the list myself, and accidentally left out Toledo, who comes in at .565. A corrected list:

1. Boise State .856
2. Brigham Young .715
3. Cincinnati .695
4. Houston .667
5. Navy .654
6. Northern Ill .644
7. Ohio .585
8. East Carolina .577
9. Nevada .569
Tulsa .569
11. Toledo .565
12. CMU .546
13. Marshall .543
14. Fresno St. .535
15. BG .527
16. La-Lafayette .516
17. MTSU .512
18. San Diego State .512
19. La-Tech .508
20. Ball State .504
21. Troy .500

As for the FBS games, if you take those out, it will make a difference in the numbers, shifting them all down, but it shouldn't change the order very much, since almost all teams play them, and play them for the same reason - to get more home games. Ohio would still have a winning record with FBS games removed, but I suspect that only about 15 G5 teams (about 1/4 of the G5 teams) would remain over .500.

As a side note, I see that for Monroe there is no middle ground between "greatest coach ever" and "worse than average", an excellent example of twisting reality.
OCF - What is our record against these 21 teams listed? We have played quite a few of those schools during the past 10 or so years, I count us having played half of these schools, and several of them multiple times, so I'd be interested in seeing how we stack up against our peer group here.
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L.C.
9/14/2016 4:43 PM
Monroe, you only make your case appear ridiculous when you make the claim that Solich has been below average, because clearly he hasn't been. The facts show that he has been in the top 15% of G5 coaches, and that only looks at on the field things. I still think he has made an even greater contribution to the long term in facility building. That was something that he has been able to do since he was planning to be at Ohio a long time. Most MAC coaches have a three to four year horizon.

In this post, you finally come close to what you are really trying to say. Why don't you just come out and say "Solich has been a good, solid coach, and he's done great things for the program. Now it's time to gamble that we can do better. We finally have an attractive enough situation that we can attract a rising great future coach. Our situation is just like the situation at NIU when Novak retired". If that were your argument, the discussion would at least make sense.
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Monroe Slavin
9/14/2016 6:36 PM
That is so much garbage. Top 15%--are you out of your mind?


Look at the games last year vs. WMU, BG and Buffalo. We got absolutely thrashed by 'peer' teams. You think that in any way evinces top 15%?

Add in the similar huge losses of the three years before last year.

That's is positively stupifying.


You clearly believe what you want to believe and will not change your view.


I changed. Used to love Solich. Now view differently.

I'm not the obstinate one.

If Solich wins a MACC this year, I'll be humbled and re-appraise.

You won't re-appraise no matter what.


I'd be on a lifeboat off the Titanic. You'd be in a deck chair praising the magnificent construction of the boat.
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mid70sbobcat
9/14/2016 7:28 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
That is so much garbage. Top 15%--are you out of your mind?
The 15% is data/factual. It's not anyone's opinion. What is opinion is that you seem to feel that a MACC is the sole definition of success.

Since you bring up CEO's I can state that they have many more areas they are measured against than a single criteria. And so are college football coaches.

You can keep crying and fighting reality or accept HOW coaches are evaluated in their performance reviews.
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L.C.
9/14/2016 8:35 PM
mid70sbobcat wrote:expand_more
That is so much garbage. Top 15%--are you out of your mind?
The 15% is data/factual. It's not anyone's opinion. What is opinion is that you seem to feel that a MACC is the sole definition of success.

Since you bring up CEO's I can state that they have many more areas they are measured against than a single criteria. And so are college football coaches.

You can keep crying and fighting reality or accept HOW coaches are evaluated in their performance reviews.

If we treat BYU as P5, not G5, there are about sixty G5 schools, and Solich's win percentage ranks #6. That actually puts him in the top 10%, but I was including BYU, which puts in in the top 15%. My opinion is whatever the facts support, nothing more, nothing less.

Monroe, I do understand that the fact don't match your feelings, but that's something I can't change.
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Monroe Slavin
9/14/2016 9:14 PM
Keep doing that analysis without regard to the quality of the opponent and achievement against the #1 goal, a MAC title.
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Monroe Slavin
9/14/2016 9:18 PM
Even by LC's slanted measure, we're Even by LC's slanted measure, we're 7th out of 21, so 33%, not 15%.

Of course, that's an undifferentiated 10 years. Why take 10 years? What if schools had more than one head coach in that period. Who did they play?


I'm not going to let you SFB get away with this crap. Just not gonna.
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Monroe Slavin
9/14/2016 9:28 PM
Some of this is hindsight, but let's examine:

2013

Wins over cupcakes: Austin Peay, Akron, EMU, Miami, UMass

Wins over peer level teams: North Texas, Marshall


Losses vs. overwhelming opponents: Louisville

Losses vs. peer level teams: CMU, Buffalo (lost by 27 points), BG (lost 0-49), Kent (lost by 31), East Carolina


Normalized record....doing away with mis-match opponents: 2-5 with 3 losses by 27 or more



L.C. is going to go nuts and claim Akron was peer level that year. No--5-7 with wins over JMU, Miami, kents, UMass.
Last Edited: 9/15/2016 12:53:17 AM by Monroe Slavin
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mid70sbobcat
9/14/2016 9:28 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Keep doing that analysis without regard to the quality of the opponent and achievement against the #1 goal, a MAC title.

My bad .. I didn't realize that McDavis and Schaus confirmed to you that MACC is Frank's #1 objective.

Quality of opponent? I already explained to you .. we're in the MAC and play 8 MAC teams/year. And 4 non-conference games. Your ranting about not playing (and beating) SEC and PAC 12 teams shows how clearly detached you are from reality.

The more you post the deeper you dig a hole. But it's fun .....
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Monroe Slavin
9/14/2016 9:30 PM
Obviously, we play a MAC sched. Was that point-out intended to be enlightening?

The point is that we're only at 60% vs. a MAC schedule.


Ya think that's Hall of Fame coaching?
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Bcat2
9/14/2016 10:35 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Obviously, we play a MAC sched. Was that point-out intended to be enlightening?

The point is that we're only at 60% vs. a MAC schedule.


Ya think that's Hall of Fame coaching?
Well, given that during the 30 seasons previous to coach Solich Ohio won 34% against MAC schedules, if there is an Ohio HOF, he might get a nod.
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mid70sbobcat
9/14/2016 11:12 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Obviously, we play a MAC sched. Was that point-out intended to be enlightening?

The point is that we're only at 60% vs. a MAC schedule.


Ya think that's Hall of Fame coaching?
Enlightening only to YOU! You're the only one posting nonsensical drivel about SEC and PAC 12 games. Again, you further discredit yourself. Every team in every conference plays against their own!! PAC 12, SEC or any other conference ... and 60% wins is ABOVE average. It is NOT mediocre as you continually state.

Last, again you fly off the handle with asinine comments .. PLEASE point out where I stated Frank is a Hall of Fame coach!! REALITY .. deal with it and quit trying to cover up your nonsense by stating things no one has even posted.
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Monroe Slavin
9/14/2016 11:28 PM
Low standards to you, too, my man Bcat2. Now I know what to get you for your birthday!

Hyperbole re HOF. Happy to point that out to you, Mid70's.
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catfan28
9/14/2016 11:47 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
1. Boise State .856
2. Brigham Young .715
3. Cincinnati .695
4. Houston .667
5. Navy .654
6. Northern Ill .644
7. Ohio .585
8. East Carolina .577
9. Nevada .569
Tulsa .569
11. Toledo .565
12. CMU .546
13. Marshall .543
14. Fresno St. .535
15. BG .527
16. La-Lafayette .516
17. MTSU .512
18. San Diego State .512
19. La-Tech .508
20. Ball State .504
21. Troy .500
I'm not Frank's biggest fan, and I think many things could be better. But to me, this list is telling and somewhat surprising. Relative to our peers, we are maximizing our results at a high level. Tough to argue with the facts.

I'll take being right there with ECU, Nevada and Navy any day of the week. Show me this list back in 1995 and I'd laugh you out of an empty Peden Stadium.
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Paul Graham
9/15/2016 12:39 AM
Dear LC, Bcat2, OCF, etc..

If you want Monroe to stop posting the same thing several thousand times, stop driving him insane by refusing to accept some basic truths about the state of the program over the last 3 or so years.

Dear Monroe,

Give it a rest! We know where you stand. Try to enjoy the season a little.
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Monroe Slavin
9/15/2016 12:52 AM
On to 2014:

wins over cupcakes: kents, Idaho, E. Illinois, miami

Wins over peer level teams: Akron, Buffalo

Losses vs. overwhelming opponents: none

Losses vs. peer level teams: Kentucky, Herd (by 30), CMU (by 18), BG (by 18), WMU (by 21), N Illinois


Normalized...cupcakes removed..record: 2-6, with 4 losses by 18 or more.
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