Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Minnesota Football players flexing their muscle
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L.C.
12/18/2016 3:16 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
The protesters in the 1960s Civil Rights Era planned their protests so that they would have the greatest positive impact. MLK used the U.S. flag as a positive symbol in order to rally people to the ideals that flag represents. In short, MLK and my friend William G. Anderson, D.O., founder of the Albany (Ga.) Movement, used a great deal of intellect in choosing where and when and how to protest so that they would be most likely to achieve the desired goal, which in this case was primarily ending the apartheid society in much of the South. The problem that I have with the current football National Anthem protests is that they do not show the same level of sophistication and planning and are, therefore, much less likely to be ultimately successful. But, I shouldn't be surprised as these are dumb football players (sorry to use a redundant phrase) so anything approaching using reasonable cognitive skills are probably not to be expected except in rare cases.

Yeah, the current football National Anthem protests don't meet your standards..so they are WRONG.

[thank you for the opportunity to go TrumpInDebates here]

WrONG!

I'm not surprised you'd go "Trump".

In any case, this protest, or any protest isn't to be judged by the present, but rather by looking back at it from the future. What will the future show? Was anything useful accomplished?

Robert Fox proposed an example of other things that pro football players could have done, however those things would have taken actual effort, whereas kneeling doesn't take much.

We can revisit this in a few years, and look back to see what, if anything, was accomplished, other than dropping NFL revenues.
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Monroe Slavin
12/18/2016 8:09 PM
1) An effective means was chosen. The whole nation has discussed this--a lot.

2) WRONG!


I repeat, regardless of factual basis or not. Because I say so: WRONG!
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OhioCatFan
12/18/2016 9:39 PM
Talking about a problem and actually coming up with a solution or a road to a solution are not the same thing. Talk is cheap.
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cc-cat
12/18/2016 11:15 PM
Protests are powerful in that they bring issues to prominence and mainstream. The solution to the injustices faced by minorities, especially blacks, obviously is more than what kap can resolve. Solutions start with recognition of the issue (see Stonewall). The issue of the distrust and violence between the black community and police (it cuts both ways) is now further discussed. The more people in the discussion the better the chance for solutions. The fact that some (not in this board) feel the protest with the flag is an injustice, but do not feel repulsed by the injustices faced by others at the hands of police is still puzzling.
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Alan Swank
12/18/2016 11:19 PM
cc-cat wrote:expand_more
Protests are powerful in that they bring issues to prominence and mainstream. The solution to the injustices faced by minorities, especially blacks, obviously is more than what kap can resolve. Solutions start with recognition of the issue (see Stonewall). The issue of the distrust and violence between the black community and police (it cuts both ways) is now further discussed. The more people in the discussion the better the chance for solutions. The fact that some (not in this board) feel the protest with the flag is an injustice, but do not feel repulsed by the injustices faced by others at the hands of police is still puzzling.
Well put, well said and spot on and from a North Carolinian no less. Not to steal credit or put words in anyone's mouth, this is exactly what Billy, squared, Monroe, myself and others have been trying without success to say. Thanks CC.
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L.C.
12/18/2016 11:39 PM
cc-cat wrote:expand_more
...The fact that some (not in this board) feel the protest with the flag is an injustice, but do not feel repulsed by the injustices faced by others at the hands of police is still puzzling.

Could you point me to even one post that said that? All I've seen is posts that suggested his methods were unlikely to be effective.
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Alan Swank
12/18/2016 11:47 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...The fact that some (not in this board) feel the protest with the flag is an injustice, but do not feel repulsed by the injustices faced by others at the hands of police is still puzzling.

Could you point me to even one post that said that? All I've seen is posts that suggested his methods were unlikely to be effective.
If they felt repulsed by the injustices faced perhaps they would have said so. Kind of like this - I don't think what K is doing is right or effective, but that said, what he is protesting is a real problem in America. I didn't see many if any of those posts. We'll start with you LC - show us one where you said that. I hope you did and if you did, I stand corrected in regards to your posts and concern about this problem and I'm glad that you are on the side of reason to address a very serious problem in America today.
Last Edited: 12/18/2016 11:50:40 PM by Alan Swank
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L.C.
12/18/2016 11:56 PM
Alan, go back to my first post, which I intended to be my only post. I had no quarrel (nor did Robert) with your statement of the problem. We only disagreed with your statement that what Kap was doing was the best possible way of addressing it. Both of us suggested alternate ways to address it that we felt might have been more effective.
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cc-cat
12/19/2016 12:01 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...The fact that some (not in this board) feel the protest with the flag is an injustice, but do not feel repulsed by the injustices faced by others at the hands of police is still puzzling.

Could you point me to even one post that said that? All I've seen is posts that suggested his methods were unlikely to be effective.
I clearly said not within this board.

I can assure you I have clearly heard from others a repulsion towards the protest, "if he doesn't like this country he can just f&cking leave." "You don't protest against the flag. That is a protest against everyone that served." And at the same time dismissal of the topic "well if those damn people would just do what the cop tells them to they wouldn't get shot. It's their own fault."

It is that dichotomy that I find puzzling and disturbing. AGAIN not from those on this board. But we can not have an open and honest discussion if we do not incorporate the unfortunate reality of the view of others within the country.
Last Edited: 12/19/2016 12:06:32 AM by cc-cat
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Alan Swank
12/19/2016 12:13 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Alan, go back to my first post, which I intended to be my only post. I had no quarrel (nor did Robert) with your statement of the problem. We only disagreed with your statement that what Kap was doing was the best possible way of addressing it. Both of us suggested alternate ways to address it that we felt might have been more effective.
Perhaps we interpret "what better way to do it" differently. One could make the case that that means this is the best way to do something while others, myself included, use it as a figure of speech. Regardless, your point is noted and well taken. But at the end of the day i honestly feel that what he has done has sped up the process and for issues such as this, time is of the essence.
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L.C.
12/19/2016 12:34 AM
cc-cat wrote:expand_more
I clearly said not within this board. ... [/QUOTE]
My apologies. I missed that.

[QUOTE=Alan Swank] Perhaps we interpret "what better way to do it" differently. One could make the case that that means this is the best way to do something while others, myself included, use it as a figure of speech. .the essence.
..

Yes, I took it literally, and apparently Robert did, too, which was what led to the whole discussion.
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rpbobcat
12/19/2016 8:45 AM
To quote Monroe:
Sorry,couldn't block out the quotes.

" Then, when the national institutions are instituting the change that you don't like, assert 'states' rights.' "

States' rights was one of, if not the primary principal on which the United States was founded.
The Founders were concerned about an overreaching Federal Government.
Hence, the United States was created as a Representative Democracy or Democratic Republic.(The terms are pretty much interchangeable)
Based on certain actions taken by the Federal Government,it seems their concerns were justified.


" Or strip the governor of powers when the other party's candidate is about to take office."

Whether you agree or disagree with this,it was done following the rules of that state.
How is this any different then the maneuvering done to pass Obamacare or Harry Reid using the "Nuclear Option" to push through judicial appointments ?


" Because conservative/traditional powers/control must be preserved by any available means...even as admonishing the other side to stay in its place, to only use certain means to seek redress. "

I haven't read any posts here that come close to this.
No one has said Kaepernick or anyone else didn't have right to protest.
What I have read are people,including myself, who took issue with the method he used.


"In America in 2016...sad."

Let's hope the new sheriff coming into town in January makes things better.
Last Edited: 12/19/2016 9:01:10 AM by rpbobcat
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Robert Fox
12/19/2016 8:55 AM
Yes, I took it literally.

And I stand by my belief there are better ways to "get the conversation going." CC, you keep saying "not people on this board" as if those of my thinking are unique, and that those against Kaepernick are largely inconsiderate, thoughtless, insensitive, and either overtly or passively racist. Do those people exist? Sure they do. But lets not define the entire group by the few (where have I heard that before?).

That's no way to build consensus. In my opinion, Kaepernick's technique failed. Why? Because in this case, publicity does-not-equal effectiveness. LC made a great point earlier. People are now arguing about whether or not they'll watch the NFL, or if NFL players are overpaid jackasses. They're not talking about police brutality against blacks. The message has become diffused. Kaepernick didn't get traction on the issues at all. It was about him from the beginning. Now it's about him and the quality of the NFL.

Message lost.
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Monroe Slavin
12/19/2016 10:24 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
...The fact that some (not in this board) feel the protest with the flag is an injustice, but do not feel repulsed by the injustices faced by others at the hands of police is still puzzling.

Could you point me to even one post that said that? All I've seen is posts that suggested his methods were unlikely to be effective.
If they felt repulsed by the injustices faced perhaps they would have said so. Kind of like this - I don't think what K is doing is right or effective, but that said, what he is protesting is a real problem in America. I didn't see many if any of those posts. We'll start with you LC - show us one where you said that. I hope you did and if you did, I stand corrected in regards to your posts and concern about this problem and I'm glad that you are on the side of reason to address a very serious problem in America today.

Very good point.

It's the failure to acknowledge that Kaepernick actually addressed what is a significant problem for substantial minorities which screams 'stay in your place.'

If one really believes in American ideals, it would seem one would be a helluva lot more concerned with ill treatment of people than 'the right way to protest.'


It's tired, old school, believe what you want to despite the facts....the same thinking that allows for people slamming Obama on the economy despite the very solid progress on unemployment made during his term in recovery from the Great Recession which he inherited....the same thinking which believes such as steel jobs were lost more because of policy than structural issues (cheaper to mfgr overseas).

It's sticking to ...putting more emph on...what you believe and what makes you comfortable despite a different reality for the substantial minority who don't enjoy the treatment which you enjoy.
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L.C.
12/19/2016 11:07 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
...If one really believes in American ideals, it would seem one would be a helluva lot more concerned with ill treatment of people than 'the right way to protest.'
...

I don't have any concern about the "right way to protest". People can do as they choose as far as I'm concerned, so long as they don't break any laws. I'm just commenting in retrospect about what we've seen as results from this "protest", and to me it seems to have been a failure. It could have worked, and it could have led to more discussion of how people are treated by police. Instead, it seems to have led to less discussion of how people are treated, and more discussion of pro football players, and to people reducing how much NFL they watched. I would not have expected that, but that's what the data indicates.

Honestly, I don't care if he continues next season or not. My suspicion is that what will happen is that after the draft this spring, and during free agent signing, salaries offered to players will be down from prior years, and the players association will take it up among themselves and decide whether they think it's a good idea to continue or not.
Last Edited: 12/19/2016 11:08:29 AM by L.C.
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OhioCatFan
12/19/2016 11:30 AM
rpbobcat wrote:expand_more
Let's hope the new sheriff coming into town in January makes things better.
Speaking of the new sheriff (for the record during the primary season I was a never Trumper) and to bring this back to the NFL, did any of you see what NFL legend Jim Brown said after meeting with the president-elect?

Here's a key quote from a CNN article:

"I can't speak for the pastor, but I fell in love with [Trump], because he really talks about helping African-American, black people and uh that's why I'm here," Brown said.

Here's the full article if you care to read it:

http://tinyurl.com/jx7ky3l
Last Edited: 12/19/2016 11:31:00 AM by OhioCatFan
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cc-cat
12/19/2016 12:36 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
And I stand by my belief there are better ways to "get the conversation going." CC, you keep saying "not people on this board" as if those of my thinking are unique, and that those against Kaepernick are largely inconsiderate, thoughtless, insensitive, and either overtly or passively racist. Do those people exist? Sure they do. But lets not define the entire group by the few (where have I heard that before?). [/QUOTE]I never implied, nor should you infer that your thinking is unique, nor that the attitude I referenced is "few" - I don't doubt that many follow your thought, unfortunately, many also follow what I outlined - not just in NC, but in other places I have been lately (PA, NJ, FL, KY).

As far as the overall effectiveness of the protest, it was effective in helping to raise the conversation - not effective then in your book - fine - we simply disagree. Where it failed (from my perspective), as I acknowledged earlier, is in the follow through. But let's also acknowledge that if all he had done was help fund and promote a "cop committee" he would have been nominated for the Art Rooney Award, but the message would have been limited to a few moments between plays on Monday Night Football.

Where Kaepernick did progress the situation is in having athletes, actors, celebrities use their position to take part in national discussion. While many (yes, many) still respond with the "shut up, and just play the game." More folks will move to the "fine, so what are you going to do about it" perspective that you embrace. It is easy to rail against the situation, but harder to provide solutions, but as athletes, actors, etc. take up more causes, they will progress more towards the "solutions" end as well.

The reality is that we just elected a celebrity as our next President and he spent the last 18 months railing against the status quo and the need to Make America Great Again, with limited specific solutions. So I don't think we can hold Kaepernick too at fault for not progressing specifics.

[QUOTE=rpbobcat]
Let's hope the new sheriff coming into town in January makes things better.
How ironic that we in North Carolina DID vote in a new sheriff, but the deputies and constables are stripping his power. Some then yell "states rights" yet, the foundation of such concern was the fear that big government would overrule the people. The actual power interests is as local as possible, yet, MY representatives in Raleigh continue to centralize the power stripping away the power of local communities. This latest scheme is simply a progression of the past 24 months (toll roads, HB2 (commonly known as the "bathroom bill" - but also know here as the "minimum wage bill"), McCrory's police video bill, and his continued coziness with Duke Energy, his former employer (in fact, it is that "relationship" that did him in more than HB2).

Bottom line, fed up, we voted in a new Governor. But the legislation is putting party and ideology ahead of the people.

Is what the NC legislature doing legal and an "on the books" method? Yes, but that does not make it ethical. Anyone that believed in the need to "drain the swamp" because of the ethics in DC certainly can not defend the ethics in Raleigh.

FYI if you want to google it the next line of defense the legislature is using is "Yea, but Jim Martin in the '80s." Of course Jim Martin has cone out and said this legislature is going way to far.

As far as our "National" sheriff. Unlike the idiots who spent the past 8 years declaring "Obama is not my President" Donald Trump has been elected our President - it will be official later today - he will be my President. While I hope that he will preside over the country in a personal manner that we expect from our leaders (though not always delivered - Clinton, Nixon), and establish policies (domestic and foreign) that will best serve our country as a whole, not the pocket or power of a few, his "President-elect" days have not provided many indications as such. Here is praying for the good of our country that he gets his act together and makes things better.
Last Edited: 12/19/2016 1:18:57 PM by cc-cat
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BillyTheCat
12/19/2016 12:44 PM
cc-cat wrote:expand_more
And I stand by my belief there are better ways to "get the conversation going." CC, you keep saying "not people on this board" as if those of my thinking are unique, and that those against Kaepernick are largely inconsiderate, thoughtless, insensitive, and either overtly or passively racist. Do those people exist? Sure they do. But lets not define the entire group by the few (where have I heard that before?).
I never implied, nor should you infer that your thinking is unique, nor that the attitude I referenced is "few" - I don't doubt that many follow your thought, unfortunately, many also follow what I outlined - not just in NC, but in other places I have been lately (PA, NJ, FL, KY).

As far as the overall effectiveness of the protest, it was effective in helping to raise the conversation - not effective then in your book - fine - we simply disagree. Where it failed (from my perspective), as I acknowledged earlier, is in the follow through. But let's also acknowledge that if all he had done was help fund and promote a "cop committee" he would have been nominated for the Art Rooney Award, but the message would have been limited to a few moments between plays on Monday Night Football.

Where Kaepernick did progress the situation is in having athletes, actors, celebrities use their position to take part in national discussion. While many (yes, many) still respond with the "shut up, and just play the game." More folks will move to the "fine, so what are you going to do about it" perspective that you embrace. It is easy to rail against the situation, but harder to provide solutions, but as athletes, actors, etc. take up more causes, they will progress more towards the "solutions" end as well.

The reality is that we just elected a celebrity as our next President and he spent the last 18 months railing against the status quo and the need to Make America Great Again, with limited specific solutions. So I don't think we can hold Kaepernick too at fault for not progressing specifics.

Let's hope the new sheriff coming into town in January makes things better.
How ironic that we in North Carolina DID vote in a new sheriff, but the deputies and constables are stripping his power. Some then yell "Federalist" yet, the foundation of the Federalist movement was the fear that big government would overrule the people. The actual power in Federalist view is as local as possible, yet, MY representatives in Raleigh continue to centralize the power stripping away the power of local communities. This latest scheme is simply a progression of the past 24 months (toll roads, HB2 (commonly known as the "bathroom bill" - but also know here as the "minimum wage bill"), McCrory's police video bill, and his continued coziness with Duke Energy, his former employer (in fact, it is that "relationship" that did him in more than HB2).

Bottom line, fed up, we voted in a new Governor. But the legislation is putting party and ideology ahead of the people.

Is what the NC legislature doing legal and an "on the books" method? Yes, but that does not make it ethical. Anyone that believed in the need to "drain the swamp" because of the ethics in DC certainly can not defend the ethics in Raleigh.

FYI if you want to google it the next line of defense the legislature is using is "Yea, but Jim Martin in the '80s." Of course Jim Martin has cone out and said this legislature is going way to far.

As far as our "National" sheriff. Unlike the idiots who spent the past 8 years declaring "Obama is not my President" Donald Trump has been elected our President - it will be official later today - he will be my President. While I hope that he will preside over the country in a personal manner that we expect from our leaders (though not always delivered - Clinton, Nixon), and establish policies (domestic and foreign) that well best serve our country as a whole, not the pocket or power of a few, his "President-elect" days have not provided many indications as such. Here is praying for the good of our country that he gets his act together and makes things better.
The courts will roll back the egregious actions by the NC legislature just like the courts rolled back the abuse of power by the Kentucky Governor last year. The danger here is the blatant disregard for the Constitution, while claiming to be upholding the Constitutional.
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rpbobcat
12/19/2016 1:51 PM
cc-cat wrote:expand_more
How ironic that we in North Carolina DID vote in a new sheriff, but the deputies and constables are stripping his power. Some then yell "states rights" yet, the foundation of such concern was the fear that big government would overrule the people. The actual power interests is as local as possible, yet, MY representatives in Raleigh continue to centralize the power stripping away the power of local communities. This latest scheme is simply a progression of the past 24 months (toll roads, HB2 (commonly known as the "bathroom bill" - but also know here as the "minimum wage bill"), McCrory's police video bill, and his continued coziness with Duke Energy, his former employer (in fact, it is that "relationship" that did him in more than HB2).

Bottom line, fed up, we voted in a new Governor. But the legislation is putting party and ideology ahead of the people.

Is what the NC legislature doing legal and an "on the books" method? Yes, but that does not make it ethical. Anyone that believed in the need to "drain the swamp" because of the ethics in DC certainly can not defend the ethics in Raleigh.

FYI if you want to google it the next line of defense the legislature is using is "Yea, but Jim Martin in the '80s." Of course Jim Martin has cone out and said this legislature is going way to far.

As far as our "National" sheriff. Unlike the idiots who spent the past 8 years declaring "Obama is not my President" Donald Trump has been elected our President - it will be official later today - he will be my President. While I hope that he will preside over the country in a personal manner that we expect from our leaders (though not always delivered - Clinton, Nixon), and establish policies (domestic and foreign) that will best serve our country as a whole, not the pocket or power of a few, his "President-elect" days have not provided many indications as such. Here is praying for the good of our country that he gets his act together and makes things better.
Two things.

1.Personally I don't like political maneuvering by either party.
What I do find ironic is, as I said in a previous post, that political maneuvering was used to pass Obamacare (Reconciliation) and judicial appointments (Nuclear Option),yet those were hailed as brilliant strategies of the Democrats.
What's good for the goose as they say.

2.I think reaction to President Obama's election was,in part, a carry over from George W. Bush,including Hollywood doing a movie showing his assassination.
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