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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Players leaving this program
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Ohio69
3/26/2018 2:36 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
71...no.

40% of Div I players transfer by the end of their sophomore years. I don't like the transferitis in college hoops, but it's a unfortunate fact. This isn't a Saul thing.
This is the answer.
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Casper71
3/26/2018 3:56 PM
I hesitate to call any recruit a whiff. I do not, however, hesitate to call some recruits not good enough to win a Mac conference title. So far, four years into it, SP has not recruited players that can win a Mac championship. You can blame that on injuries or whatever but the bottom line is what it is.
Last Edited: 3/26/2018 3:58:01 PM by Casper71
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GoCats105
3/26/2018 4:05 PM
Casper71 wrote:expand_more
I hesitate to call any recruit a whiff. I do not, however, hesitate to call some recruits not good enough to win a Mac conference title. So far, four years into it, SP has not recruited players that can win a Mac championship. You can blame that on injuries or whatever but the bottom line is what it is.
And that's a completely different argument and one open to whatever interpretation people have of the program. Some aren't happy. Some are more understanding. Some are on the fence. 2018-19 is a big year for Ohio basketball.
Last Edited: 3/26/2018 4:05:48 PM by GoCats105
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OU_Country
3/26/2018 4:08 PM
greencat wrote:expand_more
Murrell, McMurray and Springs - go ahead and call these whiffs if you want but we haven't seen any of them in an Ohio uniform. All new incoming players have a learning curve. Some greater than others. You have to see if they can be developed.
I will go ahead and double-dog guarantee Springs will never be a legit d-l basketball player. Go ahead and bookmark this post if you want. But when he ends up at NAIA MountainValleyCreek Nazarene College...

(you don't have to be "Peter Brand" from Moneyball to call this one)
Since you're double-dog guaranteeing it, would you care to go into the reasons why? And maybe how you have the expertise to declare a kid who hasn't even practiced in The Convo one time as not being a legit D1 player? I don't have the knowledge to argue if he is, or is not, but since you're so confident, I'd love to hear why.
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Casper71
3/26/2018 4:47 PM
105, agree next year is a very big year. However the last four years are not open to interpretation. Fact is we have not won a Mac championship the last four years for whatever reason(s).
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FearLeon
3/26/2018 4:59 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
I think whiffs are the wrong measure. You apparently can have a lot of non-whiffs and finish well below .500 in the MAC. The measure should be how many All-MAC players you can bring into the program and retain. Because that's what it takes to contend for a MAC Championship. Saul has not had great luck to be sure. If Tony had not been injured last year I think Ohio had a shot to win the MAC Tourney. And if they do that, Saul would have a lot more capital with all of us.
Having said that, it's hard to say that Saul hasn't underperformed in recruiting. Of the 12 (using your list above) HS recruits he's brought in, not one has made an All-MAC 1st, 2nd or 3rd Team. That will not make you a MAC contender. Here's hoping the incoming class, a healthy Carter (could be an All-MAC player) a healthy Vander Plas (I hear good things) and Kirk's development (could be an All-MAC player) change that.
Agreed Ted. I just think it's silly that people throw the word "whiff" around so loosely like it's happening all the time and every recruit that doesn't pan out or leaves the program is a whiff.
Umm...I only was referring to EDOZ as a "whiff". Nobody on this board can disagree with that. Even Stevie Wonder could see that coming 3 years ago.
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bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
3/26/2018 5:06 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Laster was benched, he was almost lost. That would have been a real debacle, you have to play the best players. Block and Gollon started over him at one point and that is crazy.
Gollon redshirted last year and didn't start a game the year before that so you literally just made this stat up.

Is it too much to ask people to take 5 seconds to fact check something before posting?
Last Edited: 3/26/2018 5:07:49 PM by bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
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bornacatfan
3/26/2018 6:17 PM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
\Even Stevie Wonder could see that coming 3 years ago.
3 years ago? Stevie Wonder could see EDoz not playing from his first days on campus? I am not sure even seeing him in open gym 3 years ago that I could be sure he would not play. The end result is that he never earned his time and his talent was not good enough to get him on the floor. But to say a blind man could have seen that coming if pretty rich....especially if they have never sat in on a practice, open gym or seen the team live. Wish I could sit in an easy chair a couple of hundred miles away and sight unseen evaluate a kid.
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allen
3/26/2018 11:52 PM
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:expand_more
Laster was benched, he was almost lost. That would have been a real debacle, you have to play the best players. Block and Gollon started over him at one point and that is crazy.
Gollon redshirted last year and didn't start a game the year before that so you literally just made this stat up.

Is it too much to ask people to take 5 seconds to fact check something before posting?
Two years ago, Gollon was getting minutes over laster, last year block started over him.
Last Edited: 3/27/2018 9:57:10 AM by allen
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OhioCatFan
3/27/2018 12:10 AM
I remember some of the self-proclaimed experts on this board were dissing Gollon in their preseason analysis of the team. Slightly more love than Mr. Dozier, but that's not saying much. Sometimes one must take the analysis here with the proverbial "grain of salt."
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SBH
3/27/2018 10:31 AM
Here's the only analysis that matters:

We are heading into Year Five of the Saul Phillips era and we find ourselves hoping he somehow pulls a rabbit out of the hat with transfers/late recruits to save next year. Is this in any way accceptable?

One more thought: Compare how Kent's AD handled coaching turnover following their string of success - Gary Waters to Stan Heath to Jim Christian to Geno Ford - and the approach we took. Disastrous decision that blunted all momentum.
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bornacatfan
3/27/2018 10:42 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Here's the only analysis that matters:

We are heading into Year Five of the Saul Phillips era and we find ourselves hoping he somehow pulls a rabbit out of the hat with transfers/late recruits to save next year. Is this in any way accceptable?

One more thought: Compare how Kent's AD handled coaching turnover following their string of success - Gary Waters to Stan Heath to Jim Christian to Geno Ford - and the approach we took. Disastrous decision that blunted all momentum.
So starting with Groce using the Kent model what would your path to succession at Ohio have been?
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GoCats105
3/27/2018 10:50 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Here's the only analysis that matters:

We are heading into Year Five of the Saul Phillips era and we find ourselves hoping he somehow pulls a rabbit out of the hat with transfers/late recruits to save next year. Is this in any way accceptable?

One more thought: Compare how Kent's AD handled coaching turnover following their string of success - Gary Waters to Stan Heath to Jim Christian to Geno Ford - and the approach we took. Disastrous decision that blunted all momentum.
Well we hired one of those guys. So...
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SBH
3/27/2018 10:54 AM
Christian was a terrible decision. He had been unsuccessful at TCU and was basically begging for a life raft. We gave it to him and he burned us. We were a hot property at that time...and we turned to a retread. Big difference between hiring a guy on his way up and one on his way down. Perhaps that's a lesson that will be learned in Akron as well.
Last Edited: 3/27/2018 10:55:29 AM by SBH
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GoCats105
3/27/2018 10:58 AM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
Here's the only analysis that matters:

We are heading into Year Five of the Saul Phillips era and we find ourselves hoping he somehow pulls a rabbit out of the hat with transfers/late recruits to save next year. Is this in any way accceptable?

One more thought: Compare how Kent's AD handled coaching turnover following their string of success - Gary Waters to Stan Heath to Jim Christian to Geno Ford - and the approach we took. Disastrous decision that blunted all momentum.
So starting with Groce using the Kent model what would your path to succession at Ohio have been?
It's interesting you bring this up Tom because I've been wondering if Chris Holtmann would have been the answer back then.
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colobobcat66
3/27/2018 11:12 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Here's the only analysis that matters:

We are heading into Year Five of the Saul Phillips era and we find ourselves hoping he somehow pulls a rabbit out of the hat with transfers/late recruits to save next year. Is this in any way accceptable?

One more thought: Compare how Kent's AD handled coaching turnover following their string of success - Gary Waters to Stan Heath to Jim Christian to Geno Ford - and the approach we took. Disastrous decision that blunted all momentum.
I don’t think that we need to pull a rabbit out of the hat with late recruits to save next year, we just need everybody healthy. If we get much out of our current recruits or one or two more, it’s icing on the cake.
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SBH
3/27/2018 11:16 AM
I think you vastly overestimate our talent, injured or not. Miami will pass us by next year.
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colobobcat66
3/27/2018 11:21 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Christian was a terrible decision. He had been unsuccessful at TCU and was basically begging for a life raft. We gave it to him and he burned us. We were a hot property at that time...and we turned to a retread. Big difference between hiring a guy on his way up and one on his way down. Perhaps that's a lesson that will be learned in Akron as well.
Hindsight is so great. Christian won 49 games st Ohio and left us with some good players. He’s a good coach as is Groce, but like Groce found out, playing with the big boys every week is another story. BC gave Christian some more time and he seems to have turned it around a little this year.
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colobobcat66
3/27/2018 11:27 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
I think you vastly overestimate our talent, injured or not. Miami will pass us by next year.
I don’t know about “,vastly”, maybe we just have a different definition of “save”. I’m saying we’ll be a lot better, not saying we’ll win the conference, but I’d expect us to be a little ahead of Miami even though they’re moving up from where they have been in recent years.
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SBH
3/27/2018 11:28 AM
Christian was abusive to players and had a near mutiny on his hands. Look at how his players responded at the end of the second season.

Ask Maurice N'Dour what "promises" were made to get him to Athens.

Ask about the near fistfight during practice between Christian and one of his coaches.

I sure wouldn't want my kid to play for him at BC.
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OhioStunter
3/27/2018 11:37 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Christian was a terrible decision. He had been unsuccessful at TCU and was basically begging for a life raft. We gave it to him and he burned us. We were a hot property at that time...and we turned to a retread. Big difference between hiring a guy on his way up and one on his way down. Perhaps that's a lesson that will be learned in Akron as well.
Why was Christian a terrible decision? I understand he wasn't really "likeable" like Groce or Phillips. But Christian won 24 and 25 games in each of his two years here. Won 25 MAC games. Didn't he recruit N'Dour and Tony Campbell? Yes, Christian bolted like Groce, but they recruited and won games while here.

You could say Christian's success was because he came into a good team coming off of the Sweet 16, but Saul came onto a team with Simmons, Mo, Tony, Laster, Setty, Bean and Stevie Taylor and only managed to win 5 MAC games. 5.
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colobobcat66
3/27/2018 11:37 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Christian was abusive to players and had a near mutiny on his hands. Look at how his players responded at the end of the second season.

Ask Maurice N'Dour what "promises" were made to get him to Athens.

Ask about the near fistfight during practice between Christian and one of his coaches.

I sure wouldn't want my kid to play for him at BC.
Thanks for the insights. I sensed there were lots of problems, but don’t have any insider info.
I wonder if he has mellowed in his old age.
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Buckeye to Bobcat
3/27/2018 11:48 AM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
Christian was abusive to players and had a near mutiny on his hands. Look at how his players responded at the end of the second season.

Ask Maurice N'Dour what "promises" were made to get him to Athens.

Ask about the near fistfight during practice between Christian and one of his coaches.

I sure wouldn't want my kid to play for him at BC.
Thanks for the insights. I sensed there were lots of problems, but don’t have any insider info.
I wonder if he has mellowed in his old age.


I can confirm all of that. Again, where Christian left us was with a dumpster fire raining down on us. So I am not the least bit sad that he left.
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GoCats105
3/27/2018 11:53 AM
So if that's the case then why are we so shocked that the program is in the state it's in now? SP had to to kill whatever cockroaches JC left behind and bring it back to normalcy.
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OU_Country
3/27/2018 11:54 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Christian was a terrible decision. He had been unsuccessful at TCU and was basically begging for a life raft. We gave it to him and he burned us. We were a hot property at that time...and we turned to a retread. Big difference between hiring a guy on his way up and one on his way down. Perhaps that's a lesson that will be learned in Akron as well.
Why was Christian a terrible decision? I understand he wasn't really "likeable" like Groce or Phillips. But Christian won 24 and 25 games in each of his two years here. Won 25 MAC games. Didn't he recruit N'Dour and Tony Campbell? Yes, Christian bolted like Groce, but they recruited and won games while here.

You could say Christian's success was because he came into a good team coming off of the Sweet 16, but Saul came onto a team with Simmons, Mo, Tony, Laster, Setty, Bean and Stevie Taylor and only managed to win 5 MAC games. 5.
Saul recruited Simmons, and Laster unless I'm mistaken.
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