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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Official Game 12 Thread: Florida International
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UpSan Bobcat
12/30/2018 4:39 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
FIUs stats are somewhat skewed due to several games against non Div I opposition.

They have been winning by forcing tons of turnovers---about 23 per game to be exact. They convert these into many scoring opportunities. Also, they get 5o the line a lot more than the opposition....but only make 64%.

They arent a good three point shooting team at 30%, but we know what happens in the Convo sometimes.

Key is to take care of the ball, stay in front of them on defense and limit dribble drives, switch quickly and/or rotate well, and to establish an inside game.
Excellent scouting report Jeff. Unfortunately we did none of those things and still got a W.
Ohio actually played defense pretty well to hold them to 66 points despite giving them 23 turnover opportunities. Shot over 50 percent in the game so that was good. Didn't foul much. Obviously didn't take care of the ball well at all, which is why it was close.
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oubobcatjohn
12/30/2018 4:57 PM
We did beat a cusa team. That has a count for something. 8-4 non conference record. That might be misleading as we got a little lucky in three of those wins.
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OU_Country
12/30/2018 5:54 PM
Wondering.... How is it that WMU had people available to produce an ESPN3/+ basketball broadcast today, but Ohio University did not?🤔

I'll save this for questions for the AD I guess.
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OU_Country
12/30/2018 5:57 PM
UpSan Bobcat wrote:expand_more
Ohio actually played defense pretty well to hold them to 66 points despite giving them 23 turnover opportunities. Shot over 50 percent in the game so that was good. Didn't foul much. Obviously didn't take care of the ball well at all, which is why it was close.
One thing I'll agree with Saul on right now is that the turns, and working to drastically decrease them, is truly key to Ohio'chances moving forward. Too bad he can't see the problem with TK taking 22 of 57 FG attempts as a problem also.
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Alan Swank
12/30/2018 6:09 PM
UpSan Bobcat wrote:expand_more
FIUs stats are somewhat skewed due to several games against non Div I opposition.

They have been winning by forcing tons of turnovers---about 23 per game to be exact. They convert these into many scoring opportunities. Also, they get 5o the line a lot more than the opposition....but only make 64%.

They arent a good three point shooting team at 30%, but we know what happens in the Convo sometimes.

Key is to take care of the ball, stay in front of them on defense and limit dribble drives, switch quickly and/or rotate well, and to establish an inside game.
Excellent scouting report Jeff. Unfortunately we did none of those things and still got a W.
Ohio actually played defense pretty well to hold them to 66 points despite giving them 23 turnover opportunities. Shot over 50 percent in the game so that was good. Didn't foul much. Obviously didn't take care of the ball well at all, which is why it was close.
Not sure if you were at the game or not but it reminded me of a Saturday afternoon game at Grover in the late 70s/early 80s. Other than FIU's ball pressure, there wasn't much defense played at either end. It was entertaining though and a Bobcat win.
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FearLeon
12/30/2018 8:05 PM
TK...22 shots? 22 freaking shots? The only guy on the roster who should be allowed to take that many shots in one game is Carter. I'll never complain about a win...no matter how ugly it can be sometimes. 2 1/2 months left to see where the future of Ohio basketball is heading. #MACtion
Last Edited: 12/30/2018 8:05:34 PM by FearLeon
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catfan28
12/30/2018 10:13 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Wondering.... How is it that WMU had people available to produce an ESPN3/+ basketball broadcast today, but Ohio University did not?🤔

I'll save this for questions for the AD I guess.
The big difference is that many other MAC schools have ample students who live nearby. Vast majority of ours are 2-3+ hours away.

Nevertheless, if we made it worth their while ($$), we could make it work.
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Andrew Ruck
12/30/2018 10:27 PM
Bobcat1998 wrote:expand_more
Officially done with these SaulCats. No way we win more than 7 MAC games and it is all his fault. Analyze recruiting, play-calling or whatever. He cannot handle anything above D2/Summit.
Bye. If you come back I hope the admins ban you. You know just for your benefit to stay true to your promise.
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Andrew Ruck
12/30/2018 10:40 PM
I don't want to devolve into the 50th straight post that ends up in Saul-Attackers vs Saul-Defenders...but TK needs addressed badly. When he was an inexperienced freshman, his turnovers (105) slightly outweighing his assists (95) could be overlooked. Now here we are in the sophomore season and he sits at 58 turnovers to just 34 assists. Our point guard has 34 assists in 12 games, and with Jason Carter and Doug Taylor to feed.

Surely this player must be a sharp shooter from outside to have such few assists right? Nope. A 6 foot guard who can't shoot consistently is almost leading our team in field goal attempts and takes 21% of our shots.

I do appreciate his ability to drive to the hoop, but that should only help him be a better distributor of the ball. By all means take it to the hoop when it is there, but dude please dish it out when it isn't there.

He needs redirected by the coaching staff and if and when he does not comply, his minutes need cut.
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Ted Thompson
12/30/2018 11:37 PM
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Ted Thompson
12/30/2018 11:41 PM

 

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colobobcat66
12/31/2018 8:07 AM
oubobcatjohn wrote:expand_more
We did beat a cusa team. That has a count for something. 8-4 non conference record. That might be misleading as we got a little lucky in three of those wins.
Maybe winning those 3 games is just not luck, if so, I’ll take them, you need a little luck in most sports.
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bobcatsquared
12/31/2018 9:27 AM
I'm wondering if TK's play is being to wear thin on his teammates. Case in point would be the first 3 possessions of the second half:

* TK misses on 3-pt attempt (I'll be happy if TK never attempts a 3-pt shot the rest of this season)

* TK turnover

* after a FIU turnover and with TK still in the backcourt after his turnover, JC decides not to make the length-of-the-court pass to an open TK, instead feeding Preston just past midcourt with the idea that Preston will get the ball back to Carter for the easy layup.
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OUVan
12/31/2018 9:39 AM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
Love how TK's eyes are securely planted on the floor as he drives on that play.
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Cbus Convo
12/31/2018 9:41 AM
From what I've seen re: TK's turnovers, it's not that he's making lazy passes or playing out of control (although that has occurred). It's that he trying to feed the ball into a tight window and make that super extra special Bobby Hurley-type feed into the lane when a simple pass around the perimeter will do. That alone might cut his TO's in half.

The whole team, however, could do much better against that 1-3-1 diamond press FIU threw at them yesterday and I wouldn't be surprised if the pressing MAC teams don't try that against us. Its not difficult to break - go to the open spot and make quick, short passes to get the ball up the court. Here's what doesn't work - trying to dribble through it or make the long skip pass over the top, which is what we saw multiple times yesterday.
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OUVan
12/31/2018 9:42 AM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
I don't want to devolve into the 50th straight post that ends up in Saul-Attackers vs Saul-Defenders...but TK needs addressed badly. When he was an inexperienced freshman, his turnovers (105) slightly outweighing his assists (95) could be overlooked. Now here we are in the sophomore season and he sits at 58 turnovers to just 34 assists. Our point guard has 34 assists in 12 games, and with Jason Carter and Doug Taylor to feed.

Surely this player must be a sharp shooter from outside to have such few assists right? Nope. A 6 foot guard who can't shoot consistently is almost leading our team in field goal attempts and takes 21% of our shots.

I do appreciate his ability to drive to the hoop, but that should only help him be a better distributor of the ball. By all means take it to the hoop when it is there, but dude please dish it out when it isn't there.

He needs redirected by the coaching staff and if and when he does not comply, his minutes need cut.
That is going to be Saul's Ohio epitaph.
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ohiocatfan1
12/31/2018 10:51 AM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Ohio actually played defense pretty well to hold them to 66 points despite giving them 23 turnover opportunities. Shot over 50 percent in the game so that was good. Didn't foul much. Obviously didn't take care of the ball well at all, which is why it was close.
One thing I'll agree with Saul on right now is that the turns, and working to drastically decrease them, is truly key to Ohio'chances moving forward. Too bad he can't see the problem with TK taking 22 of 57 FG attempts as a problem also.
Did Saul's point guards just run wild at North Dakota State like they have here? Willis, Simmons and now Kirk seem to have to have the green light to do whatever, whenever.
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longtiimelurker
1/1/2019 5:06 PM
Cbus Convo wrote:expand_more
From what I've seen re: TK's turnovers, it's not that he's making lazy passes or playing out of control (although that has occurred). It's that he trying to feed the ball into a tight window and make that super extra special Bobby Hurley-type feed into the lane when a simple pass around the perimeter will do. That alone might cut his TO's in half.

The whole team, however, could do much better against that 1-3-1 diamond press FIU threw at them yesterday and I wouldn't be surprised if the pressing MAC teams don't try that against us. Its not difficult to break - go to the open spot and make quick, short passes to get the ball up the court. Here's what doesn't work - trying to dribble through it or make the long skip pass over the top, which is what we saw multiple times yesterday.
1 3 1 or a diamond and one? Those are 2 different presses with different responsilities. Not sure either of those was used.
https://www.basketballforcoaches.com/1-2-1-1-diamond-press / https://www.basketballforcoaches.com/1-3-1-zone-defense /

I agree with you on the execution problems but saw a press that forced to the sideline and trapped immediately after crossing the mid court (Block turned in front of the scorers table in the first half). We lined up at the half court and got the good diagonal pass to mid court off the first player inbounds but Preston, Block, Murrell? and Cowart all got good passes at the midline and tried to hurry, which FIU was more than happy to speed them up, and all committed turnovers or bad passes. This was in addition to the PG who was busy getting his assist/turn ratio headed in the wrong direction. Not sure what you saw but it looked like they seemed to be running more of a 221 keeping the ball in front and pushing to the sideline more than anything.
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100%Cat
1/2/2019 7:59 AM
Murrell's stint was extremely short in this one, and it was a sequence of: turnover, leading to a foul for an and-1 on the other end, out.

I'm beginning to wonder about the TK-everyone else relationship, too. I noticed at the end of the 1st half, after TK botched the end of the half possession, Gavin Block looked visibly unhappy with him heading off the floor. I love what TK brings defensively, rebounding, and getting to the rim...but the 1 on 5 possessions where he looks to get nobody else involved need to go away and the turns have to go down. Like others have said, we don't need hero passes. We need smart passes. We need the ball to move, not get stuck with him.

Another big time game from Jason Carter, who I still contend doesn't get the ball nearly enough. 19 points on 11 FG attempts. Only 11. Feed the beast. Through all of that, we still beat a team that had a better record than we had. Maybe FIU will turn out to be a bad team that won early against a Central Michigan-esque schedule, maybe this will end up looking like a quality win. Time will tell.
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OUVan
1/2/2019 11:19 AM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Murrell's stint was extremely short in this one, and it was a sequence of: turnover, leading to a foul for an and-1 on the other end, out.

I'm beginning to wonder about the TK-everyone else relationship, too. I noticed at the end of the 1st half, after TK botched the end of the half possession, Gavin Block looked visibly unhappy with him heading off the floor. I love what TK brings defensively, rebounding, and getting to the rim...but the 1 on 5 possessions where he looks to get nobody else involved need to go away and the turns have to go down. Like others have said, we don't need hero passes. We need smart passes. We need the ball to move, not get stuck with him.

Another big time game from Jason Carter, who I still contend doesn't get the ball nearly enough. 19 points on 11 FG attempts. Only 11. Feed the beast. Through all of that, we still beat a team that had a better record than we had. Maybe FIU will turn out to be a bad team that won early against a Central Michigan-esque schedule, maybe this will end up looking like a quality win. Time will tell.
100% agree with this. Moving the ball opens everything up and it also tires out a defense over time. If you want to make sure a defense is well positioned and rested you do what TK does and dribble back and forth, back and forth every time you touch it or drive one-on-three. The other side effect of this is your teammates stop moving without the ball because what's the point if you aren't going to look for them. Most of D.J. Cooper's assists weren't exciting passes. They were the result of not only his quick ball movement but also guys like Tommy Freeman, Walter Offutt or Nick Kellogg quickly moving the ball and ensuring that the seal that Reggie Keely had established didn't go to waste...or that the defense hadn't finished their rotation and Nick was wide open and rewarded for having slid into the open spot. But TK is clearly a product of coaches that teach what I've been calling for years the "Bad AAU offense". Too many programs rely on creating offense just by having better athletes that can beat most other AAU programs one-on-one on the offensive end and high-pressure defense on the other. The effectiveness of this kind of play diminishes a little every year against well coached teams. TK's athletic ability is other-worldly though so he was probably still effective against most high school teams. I don't know his history but I would be absolutely shocked if his high school won any State titles. Would have been interesting to see how Jim Christian would have handled him.
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OU_Country
1/2/2019 11:20 AM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Murrell's stint was extremely short in this one, and it was a sequence of: turnover, leading to a foul for an and-1 on the other end, out.

I'm beginning to wonder about the TK-everyone else relationship, too. I noticed at the end of the 1st half, after TK botched the end of the half possession, Gavin Block looked visibly unhappy with him heading off the floor. I love what TK brings defensively, rebounding, and getting to the rim...but the 1 on 5 possessions where he looks to get nobody else involved need to go away and the turns have to go down. Like others have said, we don't need hero passes. We need smart passes. We need the ball to move, not get stuck with him.

Another big time game from Jason Carter, who I still contend doesn't get the ball nearly enough. 19 points on 11 FG attempts. Only 11. Feed the beast. Through all of that, we still beat a team that had a better record than we had. Maybe FIU will turn out to be a bad team that won early against a Central Michigan-esque schedule, maybe this will end up looking like a quality win. Time will tell.
I'll have to look more closely in the coming few weeks, but is TK really THAT good defensively? His ability to get to the rim is maybe the best in the league. His ability to rebound as a guard is close to the best in the league. The problems I see are that in an offense designed to share the ball, he takes waaaayyy too many shots, and forces too many around the rim in traffic.

If anyone is going to be leading the team in FG attempts, it should be Carter, followed by Vanden Plas in my opinion. Now, TK only has 6 more FG's attempted than Carter over the course of the season thus far. But he's made 7 fewer.
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Joe McKinley
1/2/2019 11:50 AM
From my perspective, most of D.J. Cooper's passes for assist were exciting because very few 6-1 PGs can make them. He often made the common pass look effortless and the uncommon one look routine.

Yes, he had strong kinetic and spatial intelligence which elite point guards display. Yes, he had a gunslinger's confidence. But, he also has a 6-7 wingspan which is rare at 6-1 and difficult to simulate in practice or adjust for in game conditions. He used this wingspan to his advantage defensively, too. It's no accident he is MAC #1 all time in assists/game and #3 in steals/game.
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ohiocatfan1
1/2/2019 1:00 PM
The "wild west" mentality of the point guards Saul has had here may come from the fact the he has never had ANY point guard depth. There doesn't appear to be any downside to them in terms of minutes being cut. The lack of point guard depth is not their fault is it?
Last Edited: 1/2/2019 1:00:51 PM by ohiocatfan1
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OUVan
1/2/2019 1:18 PM
ohiocatfan1 wrote:expand_more
The "wild west" mentality of the point guards Saul has had here may come from the fact the he has never had ANY point guard depth. There doesn't appear to be any downside to them in terms of minutes being cut. The lack of point guard depth is not their fault is it?
We may not have had great PG depth under Saul but the bigger problem is him not holding his players accountable. It doesn't matter if the guy behind the starter is not nearly as talented. If he does what you want and the starter doesn't you sit the starter for however long it takes until he gets the point. Otherwise you end with what we've had three of the last four seasons.
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GroverBall
1/2/2019 3:24 PM
Joe McKinley wrote:expand_more
From my perspective, most of D.J. Cooper's passes for assist were exciting because very few 6-1 PGs can make them. He often made the common pass look effortless and the uncommon one look routine.

Yes, he had strong kinetic and spatial intelligence which elite point guards display. Yes, he had a gunslinger's confidence. But, he also has a 6-7 wingspan which is rare at 6-1 and difficult to simulate in practice or adjust for in game conditions. He used this wingspan to his advantage defensively, too. It's no accident he is MAC #1 all time in assists/game and #3 in steals/game.
And even more impressive as I don't believe DJ is anywhere near 6-1. 5-11 at best. I also never heard the 6-7 wingspan measurement, methinks that is also a stretch.
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