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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Official Game 16 Thread: Kent St.
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allen
1/16/2019 9:00 AM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who is satisfied with where we are right now. I'm not. The writing is all over the walls that Saul will be gone after this season, too. Being sick of reading the same old rehashed garbage and hashtags doesn't make me satisfied with where we are or make me a Saulpologist. I know coming to this page after a loss is going to be a joyous occasion reading the same handful of people with their same hateful "the world is ending, see!? See!?" posts. Rest assured, we all know how you feel, FearLeon and friends. We all know.

That performance last night was...eeeesh. Defensively I thought we were OK. I thought we got some good looks from the outside, no shots seemed to fall. Free throw line struggles continued. TK didn't turn it over as much as he has been but the turns seemed costly every time, I know at least two of them lead directly to buckets. I honestly thought when it was 41-41 if we could just snag the lead and get over the hump we would take the game, but that was followed by 2 horrible possessions and a KSU 9-0 run, and the game was over.

As for the overrated Groce stuff, his career record speaks for itself. He's a sub-.500 coach in conference play that can't win on the road. Yeah, he went on a run and got to a Sweet 16. That's great. Mack McCarthy. Steve Donahue. Jim Les. Kevin Mackey. All coaches who took mid major teams to Sweet 16's and did very little else. Here's an even more eye-opening list, to me. Nate Oats (the obvious one), Rob Senderhoff, Todd Kowalczyk, Steve Hawkins, and ROB MURPHY...all current MAC coaches who have better career MAC winning percentages than John Groce.

I think Groce went to the 32 and the sweet 16 and was a free throw away from the elite 8. He is elite company, let’s compare Saul to Hunter (RIH) or someone else or just stop. Groce had us excited every year.
At what point in there did I compare Groce to Saul?

You minimized his achievements to make Saul look like he is equal or greater. Groce produced, period. You say he went on runs, now we get ran. Saul is Saul and Groce is Groce
I minimized nothing. I showed facts. I didn't speculate and shoot from the hip. You did. Career .487 winning percentage in MAC conference games. If you include Big Ten conference play, he's a career 79-97 in conference games as a head coach.
You left out his second tournament appearance and victory and his two MAC championships in four years. That’s a pretty epic rebuild, we could use one now.
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FearLeon
1/16/2019 9:16 AM
71 BOBCAT wrote:expand_more
Our weaknesses are so glaring that every opponent can develop an easy game plan to beat us.
But we have "talent" on this roster is what I keep hearing...over and over again. You are correct 71 Bobcat....It's a pretty easy game plan. Double-team Carter and make the rest of the team beat you. Nobody can hit a three or make a free throw.
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100%Cat
1/16/2019 9:29 AM
allen wrote:expand_more
I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who is satisfied with where we are right now. I'm not. The writing is all over the walls that Saul will be gone after this season, too. Being sick of reading the same old rehashed garbage and hashtags doesn't make me satisfied with where we are or make me a Saulpologist. I know coming to this page after a loss is going to be a joyous occasion reading the same handful of people with their same hateful "the world is ending, see!? See!?" posts. Rest assured, we all know how you feel, FearLeon and friends. We all know.

That performance last night was...eeeesh. Defensively I thought we were OK. I thought we got some good looks from the outside, no shots seemed to fall. Free throw line struggles continued. TK didn't turn it over as much as he has been but the turns seemed costly every time, I know at least two of them lead directly to buckets. I honestly thought when it was 41-41 if we could just snag the lead and get over the hump we would take the game, but that was followed by 2 horrible possessions and a KSU 9-0 run, and the game was over.

As for the overrated Groce stuff, his career record speaks for itself. He's a sub-.500 coach in conference play that can't win on the road. Yeah, he went on a run and got to a Sweet 16. That's great. Mack McCarthy. Steve Donahue. Jim Les. Kevin Mackey. All coaches who took mid major teams to Sweet 16's and did very little else. Here's an even more eye-opening list, to me. Nate Oats (the obvious one), Rob Senderhoff, Todd Kowalczyk, Steve Hawkins, and ROB MURPHY...all current MAC coaches who have better career MAC winning percentages than John Groce.

I think Groce went to the 32 and the sweet 16 and was a free throw away from the elite 8. He is elite company, let’s compare Saul to Hunter (RIH) or someone else or just stop. Groce had us excited every year.
At what point in there did I compare Groce to Saul?

You minimized his achievements to make Saul look like he is equal or greater. Groce produced, period. You say he went on runs, now we get ran. Saul is Saul and Groce is Groce
I minimized nothing. I showed facts. I didn't speculate and shoot from the hip. You did. Career .487 winning percentage in MAC conference games. If you include Big Ten conference play, he's a career 79-97 in conference games as a head coach.
You left out his second tournament appearance and victory and his two MAC championships in four years. That’s a pretty epic rebuild, we could use one now.
I agree. I'll push the button if there is one. I hope the next leader can consistently win games in this league.
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71 BOBCAT
1/16/2019 9:51 AM
Thank you FearLeon for agreeing with my common sense evaluation of the our teams current situation.






GO BOBCATS
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SBH
1/16/2019 10:19 AM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
Our weaknesses are so glaring that every opponent can develop an easy game plan to beat us.
But we have "talent" on this roster is what I keep hearing...over and over again. You are correct 71 Bobcat....It's a pretty easy game plan. Double-team Carter and make the rest of the team beat you. Nobody can hit a three or make a free throw.
Last night put our lack of talent in stark relief. We just don't have the skills or athleticism to compete with the upper half of the MAC. Saul's epitaph: He assembled the wrong pieces for the wrong league.
Last Edited: 1/16/2019 10:20:47 AM by SBH
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bobcatsquared
1/16/2019 10:26 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Our weaknesses are so glaring that every opponent can develop an easy game plan to beat us.
But we have "talent" on this roster is what I keep hearing...over and over again. You are correct 71 Bobcat....It's a pretty easy game plan. Double-team Carter and make the rest of the team beat you. Nobody can hit a three or make a free throw.
Last night put our lack of talent in stark relief. We just don't have the skills or athleticism to compete with the upper half of the MAC. Saul's epitaph: He assembled the wrong pieces for the wrong league.
This was illustrated perfectly in consecutive possessions. The first was the play where JC fouled out. The only reason he had to protect the rim was because the KSU player blew past one of our seniors, something that we've seen too many times the past 4 years. Then, on Ohio's next possession, that same player shot an airball from the top of the key.

KSU's roster is full of DI athletes while Ohio's has too many players that can't match up at this level.

Ohio doesn't have the "talent" that some keep hearing about on this site.
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100%Cat
1/16/2019 10:42 AM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
Our weaknesses are so glaring that every opponent can develop an easy game plan to beat us.
But we have "talent" on this roster is what I keep hearing...over and over again. You are correct 71 Bobcat....It's a pretty easy game plan. Double-team Carter and make the rest of the team beat you. Nobody can hit a three or make a free throw.
Last night put our lack of talent in stark relief. We just don't have the skills or athleticism to compete with the upper half of the MAC. Saul's epitaph: He assembled the wrong pieces for the wrong league.
This was illustrated perfectly in consecutive possessions. The first was the play where JC fouled out. The only reason he had to protect the rim was because the KSU player blew past one of our seniors, something that we've seen too many times the past 4 years. Then, on Ohio's next possession, that same player shot an airball from the top of the key.

KSU's roster is full of DI athletes while Ohio's has too many players that can't match up at this level.

Ohio doesn't have the "talent" that some keep hearing about on this site.
That player has had a really, really disappointing season.
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GoCats105
1/16/2019 10:52 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Our weaknesses are so glaring that every opponent can develop an easy game plan to beat us.
But we have "talent" on this roster is what I keep hearing...over and over again. You are correct 71 Bobcat....It's a pretty easy game plan. Double-team Carter and make the rest of the team beat you. Nobody can hit a three or make a free throw.
Last night put our lack of talent in stark relief. We just don't have the skills or athleticism to compete with the upper half of the MAC. Saul's epitaph: He assembled the wrong pieces for the wrong league.
I don't think he necessarily assembled the wrong pieces...more like doesn't know how to use them properly. The team panicked when Jaaron left prior to last year and reached for TK to fill in at the PG spot, a position where he is clearly outclassed night in and night out. As FearLeon already pointed out, 4-22 from your PG? How do you live with that and not SEE what is happening? It will be this staff's downfall. But if they're too blind to see it and/or too scared to pull the trigger then I don't want them coaching this team in the future. It's painfully obvious.

Move him over to the 2, and take your lumps with either JP, Gollon or Block running the point. At least they can take care of the ball at a better rate than TK. I'd rather see Ohio lose by playing smart than what they're doing now. One guy playing out of position makes the entire offense look completely out of whack.

You can tell the guys are frustrated too, the look of exasperation on Block after he airballed that 3 was telling. It's like each player is trying to do way too much instead of playing to their strengths. Pound the ball inside to Doug and Jason, let them try and make things happen, spot up BVP, Gollon and Block on the perimeter and then let TK clean up on the glass or get in the lane off dribble penetration.

The most they've done to switch things up is put Block in the starting lineup instead of JP. That hasn't produced much of anything so far. More drastic measures need to be taken.
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bobcatsquared
1/16/2019 10:58 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
The most they've done to switch things up is put Block in the starting lineup instead of JP. That hasn't produced much of anything so far. More drastic measures need to be taken.
Did Preston even play in the second half last night?
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GoCats105
1/16/2019 10:59 AM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
The most they've done to switch things up is put Block in the starting lineup instead of JP. That hasn't produced much of anything so far. More drastic measures need to be taken.
Did Preston even play in the second half last night?
Saul said in the presser he got hit in the head and they didn't let him come back in. I wasn't aware of that because I noticed his absence too.
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ohiocatfan1
1/16/2019 10:59 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Our weaknesses are so glaring that every opponent can develop an easy game plan to beat us.
But we have "talent" on this roster is what I keep hearing...over and over again. You are correct 71 Bobcat....It's a pretty easy game plan. Double-team Carter and make the rest of the team beat you. Nobody can hit a three or make a free throw.
Last night put our lack of talent in stark relief. We just don't have the skills or athleticism to compete with the upper half of the MAC. Saul's epitaph: He assembled the wrong pieces for the wrong league.
I don't think he necessarily assembled the wrong pieces...more like doesn't know how to use them properly. The team panicked when Jaaron left prior to last year and reached for TK to fill in at the PG spot, a position where he is clearly outclassed night in and night out. As FearLeon already pointed out, 4-22 from your PG? How do you live with that and not SEE what is happening? It will be this staff's downfall. But if they're too blind to see it and/or too scared to pull the trigger then I don't want them coaching this team in the future. It's painfully obvious.

Move him over to the 2, and take your lumps with either JP, Gollon or Block running the point. At least they can take care of the ball at a better rate than TK. I'd rather see Ohio lose by playing smart than what they're doing now. One guy playing out of position makes the entire offense look completely out of whack.

You can tell the guys are frustrated too, the look of exasperation on Block after he airballed that 3 was telling. It's like each player is trying to do way too much instead of playing to their strengths. Pound the ball inside to Doug and Jason, let them try and make things happen, spot up BVP, Gollon and Block on the perimeter and then let TK clean up on the glass or get in the lane off dribble penetration.

The most they've done to switch things up is put Block in the starting lineup instead of JP. That hasn't produced much of anything so far. More drastic measures need to be taken.

I've stated this before but our point guards have been given the keys to do whatever they want with no one pumping the breaks since Coach Phillips has been here (Willis and now Kirk). Is there any way the Simmons transfer couldn't have been seen as a good possibility? Poor planning to say the least.
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A-townBound
1/16/2019 11:00 AM
Saul post game - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ4P9SVuUKk

His frustrations seems to be more apparent - especially with Kirk.
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BillyTheCat
1/16/2019 11:06 AM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
Our weaknesses are so glaring that every opponent can develop an easy game plan to beat us.
But we have "talent" on this roster is what I keep hearing...over and over again. You are correct 71 Bobcat....It's a pretty easy game plan. Double-team Carter and make the rest of the team beat you. Nobody can hit a three or make a free throw.
Kent did a nice job of doubling Kirk up top and forcing him to give up the rock as well.
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Andrew Ruck
1/16/2019 11:35 AM
That was absolutely terrible. Definitely top 5 worst games I can remember attending. I give Kent almost no credit for their victory. Nobody had any touch at all around the rim, everyone dipped their hands in butter and NOBODY could shoot.

20 for 63 from the field and 8 for 16 from the line. We need some quicker triggers from outside, way too many hesitations or passing on open shots. And we need to see more of an inside out game. Lots of drives (mostly by TK) that get squelched could easily end up with passes but instead end with terrible shots.

Current team synopsis - Solid defensive team, terrible point guard, unreliable shooting, good bigs who struggle to succeed without the threat of an outside shot elsewhere. As usual, I choose to analyze the basketball and the players and not let every single discussion devolve into a coaching merits debate.

I am not saying this is a great team but they are a hell of a lot better than what we saw last night.

Sidebar, that and 1 waived off to a charge followed by a foul call on an awesome clean block was unreal. 2 tremendous plays by Carter that could have kept us in the game and instead results in a foul out, a Doug technical and the game getting out of hand. Not saying it caused our loss but seriously the same ref 10 seconds apart with the same player, you don't see that very often.

We just have to swing back and get a road kill in Toledo somehow to even the score. It is a tall task, but without it, it is tough to see us finding our way in the top half of the league.
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ohiocatfan1
1/16/2019 11:36 AM
A-townBound wrote:expand_more
Saul post game - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ4P9SVuUKk

His frustrations seems to be more apparent - especially with Kirk.
Until this frustration turns into reduced minutes it's just a broken record.
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Andrew Ruck
1/16/2019 11:36 AM
Also my son caught a Sonic coupon last night and saw it said "Hurry, offer ends May 31, 2013." We are handing out 6 year old coupons. If anyone with ties to those working in the convo, may want to get that remedied.
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GoCats105
1/16/2019 11:47 AM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
Also my son caught a Sonic coupon last night and saw it said "Hurry, offer ends May 31, 2013." We are handing out 6 year old coupons. If anyone with ties to those working in the convo, may want to get that remedied.
LOL that's just par for the course at this point.
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OUcats82
1/16/2019 11:53 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Also my son caught a Sonic coupon last night and saw it said "Hurry, offer ends May 31, 2013." We are handing out 6 year old coupons. If anyone with ties to those working in the convo, may want to get that remedied.
LOL that's just par for the course at this point.
Face palm.
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bobcat28
1/16/2019 12:13 PM
A-townBound wrote:expand_more
Saul post game - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ4P9SVuUKk

His frustrations seems to be more apparent - especially with Kirk.
This is the look of a defeated man. I almost felt bad for him for a minute, then I remembered we are paying him 500k and he has set the program back 6-7 years with horrendous recruiting and poor X's and O's.
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ohiocatfan1
1/16/2019 12:37 PM
bobcat28 wrote:expand_more
Saul post game - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ4P9SVuUKk

His frustrations seems to be more apparent - especially with Kirk.
This is the look of a defeated man. I almost felt bad for him for a minute, then I remembered we are paying him 500k and he has set the program back 6-7 years with horrendous recruiting and poor X's and O's.
Wow what a difference 4 years and change makes. Gone is the enthusiasm and cute one liners that were never really that funny anyway.
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allen
1/16/2019 12:52 PM
A-townBound wrote:expand_more
Saul post game - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ4P9SVuUKk

His frustrations seems to be more apparent - especially with Kirk.
He needs to go, he sounded so bratty. J Preston, do think I am stupid? Did you tell TK to shoot? No with a smug look. How can you lead young men when you throw them under the bus?
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SBH
1/16/2019 1:03 PM
I didn't sense that. He's just a guy who is coming to grips with the fact that his finished product isn't nearly good enough.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
1/16/2019 1:15 PM
Yeah, I didn't get that sense either.

It's clear this hasn't worked out and we'll move on after the season. Why our fanbase has developed such animosity towards Saul is beyond me. He did his best, it wasn't enough. No need to drag him down on the way out.
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Andrew Ruck
1/16/2019 1:53 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
Why our fanbase has developed such animosity towards Saul is beyond me. He did his best, it wasn't enough. No need to drag him down on the way out.
Don't let the vocal minority overshadow the silent majority. I still believe the majority of devoted fans share your viewpoint.
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allen
1/16/2019 2:09 PM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
Why our fanbase has developed such animosity towards Saul is beyond me. He did his best, it wasn't enough. No need to drag him down on the way out.
Don't let the vocal minority overshadow the silent majority. I still believe the majority of devoted fans share your viewpoint.
He shouldn’t give up and start pointing fingers, he should engage his team Don’t throw people under the bus, take that 20 years of experience and apply it like your livelihood depends on it. He acted as if j Preston would have saved the game. It is like he read TK meter and played to his supporters in that bratty press conference, we are only 4 games in and we could have won all of them.
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