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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Official Game 17 Thread: Toledo
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GraffZ06
1/18/2019 8:57 PM
Hey there was a game tonight!

Here I am getting all geeked up for a night of Live PD with Live PD nation and my wife, then I realized I forgot about the game.

Apparently so did the team. Whoops.

Hope they get home before the storm hits.
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OU_Country
1/18/2019 8:58 PM
Bobcat1998 wrote:expand_more
The question is, which Ohio team shows up? AND, which Toledo team shows up? If it's the Toledo team that got blasted by Ball State, there is definitely a chance to win this one.
How about the team that beat a now 4-0 Marshall team or an FIU team that just stepped up in a big win?
I'm with you - I'd rather see that version of this team tonight as well. Fingers crossed.
I think we just need that consistency that we got from that DJ/Walt/Ivo senior team core staying together without transfers. DJ, Nick, Ivo, TJ, Rico, Reggie, Stevie -- those guys were 4 year OU players with Walt and Jon mixing in seamlessly. The last few years it seems like we've had the core of Doug and Gavin and that's it. Gollon (hurt), Dartis (hurt), Simmons (transfer), Tone (hurt) but we also have had a ton of guys transfer and not allow for consistency. Look at the best mid-major teams. They always have 6 or 7 guys who are "program" guys. I mistakenly said the other day that Saul doesn't care. I know he cares and I know he can coach. I just know there is something "off" with his recruits and how they fit together.


I will still die for this school and hope we see the "Marshall" Bobcats tonight!!!!!!
While that's a very good point, the other thing is that most of those guys are simply better than several current players. Nick, Walt, DJ especially. Those three guys were really, really good. They're all better than any guard currently healthy and playing. Jordan could probably hang with them, but that's it.
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Maddog13
1/18/2019 10:03 PM
The best part of the season is becoming when Russ interviews Saul after these losses. The unspoken subtext leaking out in the form of when Russ states that "this boat" has at least 13 more games afloat. Saul has noticeably retreated to "I don't know" when pressed for what this teams needs to do next. I keep remembering a year ago, when Saul got defensive when Jason Arkley asked him the question of what do you need to do to get this team to "buy into" your approach. I guess that it is hard to buy into anything if your coach keeps retreating to "I don't know," but "I will come up with something." Good grief, I keep envisioning Saul as Charlie Brown, who keeps having the ball pulled away from him by Lucy when he goes up to kick it. Our coach too has become Captain Obvious, who states that you can't be twenty points down and expect to win a game. Gosh, I hadn't thought of that, coach.
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greencat
1/18/2019 10:08 PM
The long term answer would be to bring in a more athletic level of athletes. I watched some of the game and the difference in athleticism between Toledo and Ohio was glaring. Toledo is good but they are not Duke or Kansas or Michigan.
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Buckeye to Bobcat
1/18/2019 10:09 PM
The good news about going tonight was the beer at the concession. Made the 2nd half easier to watch.

The bad news was they limited me to two beers
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allen
1/18/2019 10:36 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
The question is, which Ohio team shows up? AND, which Toledo team shows up? If it's the Toledo team that got blasted by Ball State, there is definitely a chance to win this one.
How about the team that beat a now 4-0 Marshall team or an FIU team that just stepped up in a big win?
I'm with you - I'd rather see that version of this team tonight as well. Fingers crossed.
I think we just need that consistency that we got from that DJ/Walt/Ivo senior team core staying together without transfers. DJ, Nick, Ivo, TJ, Rico, Reggie, Stevie -- those guys were 4 year OU players with Walt and Jon mixing in seamlessly. The last few years it seems like we've had the core of Doug and Gavin and that's it. Gollon (hurt), Dartis (hurt), Simmons (transfer), Tone (hurt) but we also have had a ton of guys transfer and not allow for consistency. Look at the best mid-major teams. They always have 6 or 7 guys who are "program" guys. I mistakenly said the other day that Saul doesn't care. I know he cares and I know he can coach. I just know there is something "off" with his recruits and how they fit together.


I will still die for this school and hope we see the "Marshall" Bobcats tonight!!!!!!
While that's a very good point, the other thing is that most of those guys are simply better than several current players. Nick, Walt, DJ especially. Those three guys were really, really good. They're all better than any guard currently healthy and playing. Jordan could probably hang with them, but that's it.
I agree, throw Stevie in there too. A healthy Dartis could have played with them, just think if the PF (Ivo) on the Groce team didn’t fall off. Carter and Taylor could have played, but we have nothing close to Keely coming off the bench. BVP will be decent, he seems to have lost his legs already.
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Bobcat1998
1/18/2019 10:58 PM
I would take Travis Wilkins 10 out of 10 times over 2/3 of this team.
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brucecuth
1/18/2019 11:01 PM
Saul has recruited too many injury prone guys, and most of the injuries date back to h.s. should have gotten better intel, or simply not taken the chance.
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Bobcat1998
1/18/2019 11:42 PM
brucecuth wrote:expand_more
Saul has recruited too many injury prone guys, and most of the injuries date back to h.s. should have gotten better intel, or simply not taken the chance.
I think you can take chances on guys but it has to be the right guys. Look at this player that we had on the radar but we were too late when Dambrot swooped in and grabbed him for Duquesne. This guy had no offers until Dambrot went to Pittsburgh. Check out his stats now as a freshman coming off a junior injury:

Sincere Carry
17 games
31.6 mpg
11.8 ppg
4.0 rpg
5.6 apg
2.9 spg
.489 FG
.750 FT
.380 3pointers
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ohiocatfan1
1/19/2019 8:59 AM
[QUOTE=greencat] The long term answer would be to bring in a more athletic level of athletes. I watched some of the game and the difference in athleticism between Toledo and Ohio was glaring. Toledo is good but they are not Duke or Kansas or Michigan.

The blame for this falls directly on Coach Phillips. He has recruited players, that even when healthy, don't have the athletic ability to compete at this level. The players really can't be blamed for this. Our guys should be playing in the OAC not the MAC. I think Coach has totally whiffed on the level of athleticism needed to compete in this conference.
Last Edited: 1/19/2019 8:59:53 AM by ohiocatfan1
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FearLeon
1/19/2019 9:08 AM
ohiocatfan1 wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=greencat] The long term answer would be to bring in a more athletic level of athletes. I watched some of the game and the difference in athleticism between Toledo and Ohio was glaring. Toledo is good but they are not Duke or Kansas or Michigan.

The blame for this falls directly on Coach Phillips. He has recruited players, that even when healthy, don't have the athletic ability to compete at this level. The players really can't be blamed for this. Our guys should be playing in the OAC not the MAC. I think Coach has totally whiffed on the level of athleticism needed to compete in this conference.
It's pretty unbelievable how Toledo is head and shoulders across the board at every position when it comes to athleticism. And as we've seen over the last two years, it's not just Toledo....many MAC teams have surpassed Ohio in recruiting. I mean it's painfully obvious that more than a few of these guys on the last two rosters should be playing for Ohio Northern. I think it took awhile for folks on here to truly understand how weak the recruiting has been. The other coaches in the league must be shocked how low things have gotten in this department in Athens.
Last Edited: 1/19/2019 9:20:38 AM by FearLeon
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ohiocatfan1
1/19/2019 10:37 AM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=greencat] The long term answer would be to bring in a more athletic level of athletes. I watched some of the game and the difference in athleticism between Toledo and Ohio was glaring. Toledo is good but they are not Duke or Kansas or Michigan.

The blame for this falls directly on Coach Phillips. He has recruited players, that even when healthy, don't have the athletic ability to compete at this level. The players really can't be blamed for this. Our guys should be playing in the OAC not the MAC. I think Coach has totally whiffed on the level of athleticism needed to compete in this conference.
It's pretty unbelievable how Toledo is head and shoulders across the board at every position when it comes to athleticism. And as we've seen over the last two years, it's not just Toledo....many MAC teams have surpassed Ohio in recruiting. I mean it's painfully obvious that more than a few of these guys on the last two rosters should be playing for Ohio Northern. I think it took awhile for folks on here to truly understand how weak the recruiting has been. The other coaches in the league must be shocked how low things have gotten in this department in Athens.
Either the recruits we're going after aren't buying what our staff is selling or we're going after the wrong recruits to begin with.
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greencat
1/19/2019 4:30 PM
ohiocatfan1 wrote:expand_more
The blame for this falls directly on Coach Phillips. He has recruited players, that even when healthy, don't have the athletic ability to compete at this level. The players really can't be blamed for this. Our guys should be playing in the OAC not the MAC. I think Coach has totally whiffed on the level of athleticism needed to compete in this conference.
There were actually people on this forum during last late signing period that scoffed at the words "athlete" and "athleticism" arguing that "athletes" are for track & field, not basketball.

So far today, I've watched part of games that included Kansas-WVU, Bama-Tennessee, and now Kentucky-Auburn. I'm pretty certain that what I was watching was basketball and that "athletes" were involved. Good ones too.
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Pataskala
1/19/2019 6:03 PM
Toledo had more assists (20) than we had made FGs (19). Sigh.
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Buckeye to Bobcat
1/19/2019 6:27 PM
greencat wrote:expand_more
The blame for this falls directly on Coach Phillips. He has recruited players, that even when healthy, don't have the athletic ability to compete at this level. The players really can't be blamed for this. Our guys should be playing in the OAC not the MAC. I think Coach has totally whiffed on the level of athleticism needed to compete in this conference.
There were actually people on this forum during last late signing period that scoffed at the words "athlete" and "athleticism" arguing that "athletes" are for track & field, not basketball.

So far today, I've watched part of games that included Kansas-WVU, Bama-Tennessee, and now Kentucky-Auburn. I'm pretty certain that what I was watching was basketball and that "athletes" were involved. Good ones too.
You can't put a value on athletes. When they can go mix it up with the best in the country, you're gonna have a shot. Complement them with smart players and you'll have a good team.

That said, athleticism doesn't exist right now.
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cbus cat fan
1/19/2019 7:08 PM
We certainly had enough talent to beat Ball State and lead Xavier in the 2nd half on the road. Some years you have injuries, and some years you have players that just don't seem all that concerned as past groups about winning. I never understood this until I coached at the high school level. I guessed I was always surrounded by players who really scraped and battled no matter their talent limitations. I remember talking to coaches who would comment on other coaches who got the most out of their players, and some who just seemed flummoxed when the players just didn't seem all that concerned. Oddly, a good example of this is in the film Rudy. There's a scene toward the end where Rudy can't fathom that one of the bench players just doesn't seem to care if he gets in the game or not. The player seems to indicate that he liked football because his father liked football, and because of it (and some natural athletic ability) he got a scholarship out of it. However, his heart really wasn't into it.

Sadly Coach Phillips can't talk with two of the best coaches who got the most of the least talent, that being Coach Rick Majerus and Coach Charlie Coles. If they were alive, I am sure they would have some great advice to give.
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Buckeye to Bobcat
1/19/2019 7:37 PM
cbus cat fan wrote:expand_more
Sadly Coach Phillips can't talk with two of the best coaches who got the most of the least talent, that being Coach Rick Majerus and Coach Charlie Coles. If they were alive, I am sure they would have some great advice to give.
+1

Majerus in particular is one of the best coaches in that regard. Not many guys these days could do what he did
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OhioCatFan
1/19/2019 10:52 PM
ohiocatfan1 wrote:expand_more
. . . Our guys should be playing in the OAC not the MAC. I think Coach has totally whiffed on the level of athleticism needed to compete in this conference.
Well, OCF1 . . . OCF here. Kind of like your name! ;-)

Now, if your statement above is true, that our players should be in the OAC, how do you explain our victories in December over Marshall, the last I looked they were leading C-USA at 5-0 in the conference, and FIU, who is a middle of the pack C-USA team. I don't think any team in the OAC could have beaten either of these teams. I will concede that we are lacking in talent in certain positions, but to say overall that Ohio has OAC-level athletes is as absurd a statement as I've seen on this board in a long time, and we have no shortage historically of posters (myself included at times) making ridiculous statements -- usually in the aftermath of a crushing defeat when it appears the sky is falling.
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BillyTheCat
1/20/2019 1:14 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
. . . Our guys should be playing in the OAC not the MAC. I think Coach has totally whiffed on the level of athleticism needed to compete in this conference.
Well, OCF1 . . . OCF here. Kind of like your name! ;-)

Now, if your statement above is true, that our players should be in the OAC, how do you explain our victories in December over Marshall, the last I looked they were leading C-USA at 5-0 in the conference, and FIU, who is a middle of the pack C-USA team. I don't think any team in the OAC could have beaten either of these teams. I will concede that we are lacking in talent in certain positions, but to say overall that Ohio has OAC-level athletes is as absurd a statement as I've seen on this board in a long time, and we have no shortage historically of posters (myself included at times) making ridiculous statements -- usually in the aftermath of a crushing defeat when it appears the sky is falling.
You are correct OCF, it’s the NCAC teams that beat us when we have two NBA players on the roster, not the talent poor OAC.
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OhioCatFan
1/20/2019 11:20 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
. . . Our guys should be playing in the OAC not the MAC. I think Coach has totally whiffed on the level of athleticism needed to compete in this conference.
Well, OCF1 . . . OCF here. Kind of like your name! ;-)

Now, if your statement above is true, that our players should be in the OAC, how do you explain our victories in December over Marshall, the last I looked they were leading C-USA at 5-0 in the conference, and FIU, who is a middle of the pack C-USA team. I don't think any team in the OAC could have beaten either of these teams. I will concede that we are lacking in talent in certain positions, but to say overall that Ohio has OAC-level athletes is as absurd a statement as I've seen on this board in a long time, and we have no shortage historically of posters (myself included at times) making ridiculous statements -- usually in the aftermath of a crushing defeat when it appears the sky is falling.
You are correct OCF, it’s the NCAC teams that beat us when we have two NBA players on the roster, not the talent poor OAC.
Saul Phillips > Billy Hahn
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longtiimelurker
1/20/2019 5:44 PM
greencat wrote:expand_more
There were actually people on this forum during last late signing period that scoffed at the words "athlete" and "athleticism" arguing that "athletes" are for track & field, not basketball.
I missed those and can't find them with a search. You think you can find the actual quotes, I would actually like to see those.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
1/20/2019 6:18 PM
longtiimelurker wrote:expand_more
There were actually people on this forum during last late signing period that scoffed at the words "athlete" and "athleticism" arguing that "athletes" are for track & field, not basketball.
I missed those and can't find them with a search. You think you can find the actual quotes, I would actually like to see those.
I personally wouldn't scoff at anything to do with athleticism, but right now our problems have to do with our inability to put the friggin ball in the hoop. Does anyone really want to argue otherwise?
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longtiimelurker
1/20/2019 8:25 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
There were actually people on this forum during last late signing period that scoffed at the words "athlete" and "athleticism" arguing that "athletes" are for track & field, not basketball.
I missed those and can't find them with a search. You think you can find the actual quotes, I would actually like to see those.
I personally wouldn't scoff at anything to do with athleticism, but right now our problems have to do with our inability to put the friggin ball in the hoop. Does anyone really want to argue otherwise?
I asked a couple of weeks back, who is coaching shooting? No one answered last time.
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GoCats105
1/20/2019 10:44 PM
ohiocatfan1 wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=greencat] The long term answer would be to bring in a more athletic level of athletes. I watched some of the game and the difference in athleticism between Toledo and Ohio was glaring. Toledo is good but they are not Duke or Kansas or Michigan.

The blame for this falls directly on Coach Phillips. He has recruited players, that even when healthy, don't have the athletic ability to compete at this level. The players really can't be blamed for this. Our guys should be playing in the OAC not the MAC. I think Coach has totally whiffed on the level of athleticism needed to compete in this conference.
It's pretty unbelievable how Toledo is head and shoulders across the board at every position when it comes to athleticism. And as we've seen over the last two years, it's not just Toledo....many MAC teams have surpassed Ohio in recruiting. I mean it's painfully obvious that more than a few of these guys on the last two rosters should be playing for Ohio Northern. I think it took awhile for folks on here to truly understand how weak the recruiting has been. The other coaches in the league must be shocked how low things have gotten in this department in Athens.
Either the recruits we're going after aren't buying what our staff is selling or we're going after the wrong recruits to begin with.
Combination of both. They go after some big names, usually early on and just haven't landed one. A few guys really blew up between their Junior/Senior years and by that time Ohio wasnt in the mix. But then as a backup some of the reaches for talent to fill the roster haven't materialized much.
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