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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Did Oats go too early? TOS to St. John's
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Kevin Finnegan
4/9/2019 10:22 AM
With Chris Mullin looking like he's out at St. John's, I wonder if Oats jumped too quickly. I bet he'd be a frontrunner for the St. John's job if he'd stayed in NY and would have many more connections in that area than he likely does down south. I also think the St. John's position would be more appealing basketball-wise than Alabama.
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cc-cat
4/9/2019 10:27 AM
Had the same thought when Virginia Tech came open. will be interesting. Bobby Hurley is rumored to be at the top of St John’s list.
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longtiimelurker
4/9/2019 10:38 AM
finnOhio wrote:expand_more
With Chris Mullin looking like he's out at St. John's, I wonder if Oats jumped too quickly. I bet he'd be a frontrunner for the St. John's job if he'd stayed in NY and would have many more connections in that area than he likely does down south. I also think the St. John's position would be more appealing basketball-wise than Alabama.
Just curious as to why you think a guy from Wisconsin would have any more connections to NY than he does to the South. Like Chicago, NYC area is even more cliquey than the rest of the world. That was the Mullin attraction was it not?
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Buckeye to Bobcat
4/9/2019 10:53 AM
If they get Hurley, it's a homerun play. If they don't, then the AD made a change to make a change stupidly.

I have always said if you are going to fire someone, always ask yourself if you have a replacement ready to go that is better. If the answer is yes, then pull the trigger. If the answer is no, then don't fire, but monitor for something good.
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rpbobcat
4/9/2019 11:36 AM
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:expand_more
If they get Hurley, it's a homerun play. If they don't, then the AD made a change to make a change stupidly.

I have always said if you are going to fire someone, always ask yourself if you have a replacement ready to go that is better. If the answer is yes, then pull the trigger. If the answer is no, then don't fire, but monitor for something good.
I talked about this on the Coaching Changes Thread.

Its also been a hot topic on WFAN all morning.

According to the people on WFAN,Saint Johns brought in their AD to elevate their athletics,and to return basketball to the prominence it had under Carnesecca.

From what they said,Mullen was more of a "figurehead" and didn't like "getting down in the weeds",especially when it came to recruiting.

Mullen seemed to be shakey ground last year.

Hurley is supposed to be on the top of their coaching list.
But they said it will be hard to get him to leave ASU.

They were also saying that its really tough to recruit to SJU.
Most of the top "local talent" is looking to go to a different area then Queens.

I would think,given the fact that their AD came from Duke,he's got some kind of plan
Last Edited: 4/9/2019 11:37:36 AM by rpbobcat
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
4/9/2019 4:03 PM
"Chris, we know you're a former great here, you've turned the program around and we owe you $4 million. But the Vitamin Water guy wants Bobby Hurley."

Welcome to 2019.
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rpbobcat
4/9/2019 4:49 PM
Just heard the official announcement that Mullen stepped down.
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cbus cat fan
4/9/2019 9:02 PM
As long as Nick Saban is the football coach, few in Alabama will even know who the basketball coach is, just as long as he doesn't do anything silly. Coach Oats doesn't seem like that kind of a guy. St John's, like UCLA still has a lot of people living in he past, in St John's case in the 80s, and UCLA's case in the 70s. Tough to go up against the fond memories generated by the late Coach John Wooden and Coach Lou Carnesecca.
Last Edited: 4/9/2019 9:03:04 PM by cbus cat fan
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Jeff McKinney
4/9/2019 9:24 PM
cbus cat fan wrote:expand_more
As long as Nick Saban is the football coach, few in Alabama will even know who the basketball coach is, just as long as he doesn't do anything silly. Coach Oats doesn't seem like that kind of a guy. St John's, like UCLA still has a lot of people living in he past, in St John's case in the 80s, and UCLA's case in the 70s. Tough to go up against the fond memories generated by the late Coach John Wooden and Coach Lou Carnesecca.
Coach Wooden didnt even like it at UCLA during his glory years. I've listened to about every speech of his available on YouTube and read Seth Davis' biographical tome. The more he won the more ridiculous the demands of alumni became. He said on more than one occasion that the alumni now were upset that UCLA wasnt winning by big enough margins. He said he figured they were betting on the games. The main reason he quit was to get away from the craziness.
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bobcatsquared
4/9/2019 9:46 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Coach Wooden didnt even like it at UCLA during his glory years. I've listened to about every speech of his available on YouTube and read Seth Davis' biographical tome. The more he won the more ridiculous the demands of alumni became. He said on more than one occasion that the alumni now were upset that UCLA wasnt winning by big enough margins. He said he figured they were betting on the games. The main reason he quit was to get away from the craziness.
In any of those youtube snippets, did Wooden ever mention Sam Gilbert and the not so "squeaky clean" program Wooden and Gilbert oversaw in Westwood?
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Jeff McKinney
4/9/2019 10:39 PM
The Sam Gilbert stuff is thoroughly dealt with in Davis' book. As for Wooden's speeches, I don't recall him ever mentioning Gilbert, though he may have. A lot of these speeches are interviews with many lobbing softball questions but others being more journalistic.

Though Wooden admitted he should have cracked down on Gilbert, Davis' conclusion was that the program wasnt as dirty as Woodens critics like to argue, although Gilbert provided benefits that were at least questionable and probably violations. Example: I heard Wooden's harshest critic, Bob Knight, say that "Sam Gilbert did all the recruiting at UCLA." Not true according to the research. Knight's closest mentor was one of Wooden's fiercest rivals on the west coast, Pete Newell. So Knight got kind of a skewed view of Wooden. As with most things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. The program was dirty to a degree, but nowhere near as bad as many programs. I'd refer anyone who wants to know more to the Davis book. It wasnt an authorized biography, and Davis didnt run what he wrote past the Wooden family.
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cbus cat fan
4/9/2019 10:49 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
As long as Nick Saban is the football coach, few in Alabama will even know who the basketball coach is, just as long as he doesn't do anything silly. Coach Oats doesn't seem like that kind of a guy. St John's, like UCLA still has a lot of people living in he past, in St John's case in the 80s, and UCLA's case in the 70s. Tough to go up against the fond memories generated by the late Coach John Wooden and Coach Lou Carnesecca.
Coach Wooden didnt even like it at UCLA during his glory years. I've listened to about every speech of his available on YouTube and read Seth Davis' biographical tome. The more he won the more ridiculous the demands of alumni became. He said on more than one occasion that the alumni now were upset that UCLA wasnt winning by big enough margins. He said he figured they were betting on the games. The main reason he quit was to get away from the craziness.
Yes Jeff you are certainly right, too many people in Westwood then and now didn't understand Coach Wooden. Even though I was just a kid, I remember Coach Wooden's final game defeating Denny Crum's Louisville in the 1975 NCAA Championship game like it was yesterday. He went out on top and seemingly never looked back. The man seemed at peace with himself. Even as a kid, he seemed larger than life to me. I wish we had more like him today. Maybe more coaches want to be like him, but sadly feel the need to be part of the social media/entertainment culture which is so much a part of sports today.

On a recent business trip out west, I found myself engaged in conversation with a big UCLA fan in Los Angeles who was wistfully talking about the old days quoting Coach Wooden and Bill Walton chapter and verse like a faithful believer would quote Scripture. The man looked to be around 70 years of age and he dressed and acted like he was right out of the 1970s. He almost seemed the antithesis of Coach Wooden. Even Bill Walton with all of his tie dye apparel and Grateful Dead musings seems steeped in Coach Wooden's stripped down approach and relentless work ethic. Coach Wooden was the antithesis of the splash and dash culture that permeates out of the area. Sadly, too many of their fans just don't seem to get it.
Last Edited: 4/9/2019 11:08:13 PM by cbus cat fan
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Buckeye to Bobcat
4/9/2019 11:19 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
The Sam Gilbert stuff is thoroughly dealt with in Davis' book. As for Wooden's speeches, I don't recall him ever mentioning Gilbert, though he may have. A lot of these speeches are interviews with many lobbing softball questions but others being more journalistic.

Though Wooden admitted he should have cracked down on Gilbert, Davis' conclusion was that the program wasnt as dirty as Woodens critics like to argue, although Gilbert provided benefits that were at least questionable and probably violations. Example: I heard Wooden's harshest critic, Bob Knight, say that "Sam Gilbert did all the recruiting at UCLA." Not true according to the research. Knight's closest mentor was one of Wooden's fiercest rivals on the west coast, Pete Newell. So Knight got kind of a skewed view of Wooden. As with most things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. The program was dirty to a degree, but nowhere near as bad as many programs. I'd refer anyone who wants to know more to the Davis book. It wasnt an authorized biography, and Davis didnt run what he wrote past the Wooden family.
Can you blame Knight for having a skewed look for having to recruit against Kentucky all those years? I would be the eternal pessimist if someone I knew had my mindset and was dealing with a similar devil.

I'm sorry, but there are three myths in college basketball:
1. John Wooden was squeaky clean with his Pyramid of Success
Answer: Aka: His Pyramid of Schemes sponsored by Gilbert. Ironic how they got nailed for probation after Wooden retired and haven't been great since. And yes, Jim Harrick coached here and had as bogus of classes as.....

2. The Carolina Way with Dean Smith is Pure
Answer: The Carolina Way consists of putting schools on probation and signing up "student-athletes" for bogus classes that should have landed Carolina on the death penalty. And yes, they've been doing it for years even with Dean Smith there. For further evidence, see Larry Brown and Roy Williams

3. Coach K is the Epitome of Clean Basketball with Duke
Answer: More like Duke is going to get nailed by the FBI for their ways and cannot wait for the house to crumble in on this one. Everyone knows it, Zion didn't turn down Kentucky and $200,000 just so he could play for Duke for free. Of course, Auburn never got nailed for Cam Newton EVEN THOUGH his dad admitted to shopping him.

But I digress....
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OhioCatFan
4/10/2019 12:33 AM
BtoB, I have no trouble believing what you say about Smith and K, but Johnny Wooden? Say it ain't so!
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rpbobcat
4/10/2019 6:27 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
BtoB, I have no trouble believing what you say about Smith and K, but Johnny Wooden? Say it ain't so!

After Izzo had his tirade with one of his players during March Madness,The Sports Edge on WFAN had a show about coaches yelling at players.

One of the guests,I didn't get his name, talked about Wooden's style.
He was saying Wooden was always seen as the sympathetic coach.
But the guy said Wooden would let his asst.coaches do the yelling at players and
he would come in as the calming force.
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100%Cat
4/10/2019 3:17 PM
I think if it was a job he really wanted he would have pulled a Manny Diaz and left Alabama after a few weeks.

Still crazy to me that Diaz pulled that over on Temple.
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Recovering Journalist
4/10/2019 4:08 PM
To get back to the original question, I fail to see how Alabama is a worse job than St. John's (aside from geography). Alabama has a massive budget, plays in a football conference with some legendary basketball programs (high ceiling plus low-ish expectations) and was a bird in the hand. St. John's has history that's getting more ancient every day and a good basketball league. That's it. Yes, they paid Mullin more than Oats is getting, but 1) the job wasn't there before and 2) Nate Oates is not the greatest player in St. John's basketball history.
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rpbobcat
4/11/2019 6:32 AM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
I think if it was a job he really wanted he would have pulled a Manny Diaz and left Alabama after a few weeks.

Still crazy to me that Diaz pulled that over on Temple.
Real Sports did a segment on Diaz.

The whole situation with Miami was kind of weird.

According to the segment,Diaz and Richt were "tight'.
Yet Richt never mentioned anything to him about retiring.

This after he said how much thought and prayer went into his decision to retire.

From listening to Diaz,Miami HC was his all time dream job.
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Maddog13
4/11/2019 11:37 AM
Oats appears to have learned a thing or two from Mr. Hurley. What is keeping Mr. Oats from learning a thing or two from Mr. Saban and company as well? I find Oats to be pretty sharp. I would have never guessed that he would end up being hired at Alabama. The more I think about this move though, the more I see the wisdom in it. Auburn, LSU, and Tennessee have all improved their stock in basketball along with the ever present powerhouse Kentucky, so why not Alabama too? I see a lot more potential upside here than downside. Whether it pans out or not for Mr. Oats, he still walks away with a nice chunk of money. In addition, he gets a view behind the scenes of an extremely high profile athletic department.
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The Optimist
4/11/2019 7:56 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
To get back to the original question, I fail to see how Alabama is a worse job than St. John's (aside from geography). Alabama has a massive budget, plays in a football conference with some legendary basketball programs (high ceiling plus low-ish expectations) and was a bird in the hand. St. John's has history that's getting more ancient every day and a good basketball league. That's it. Yes, they paid Mullin more than Oats is getting, but 1) the job wasn't there before and 2) Nate Oates is not the greatest player in St. John's basketball history.
Agreed. I find the question interesting re: pedigree of program in this case. There’s always some level of pull and tug when you’ve got an elite football program and the basketball program isn’t quite at the same level. In some respects, I think it helps the basketball program... I wouldn’t consider Alabama “elite” as a basketball school but there’s no question they are an “elite” sports school overall. I bet some top recruits don’t even know where St. John’s is... don’t have that problem at Bama... might get your foot in the door on top recruits when you’d otherwise have no chance

I always thought OSU basketball benefited in the 2000s from their football success...
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Broomball @ Midnight!
4/11/2019 9:48 PM
Another thing to consider for hoops is 50+% of Alabama's growing enrollment is from out of sate and most is from the NE and Midwest.

if Oates is as good as he seems to be thanks to Buffalo, he will succeed there.

St. John's, and most of the Big East is irrelevant and will remain so.
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Buck.Cat
4/11/2019 9:59 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
To get back to the original question, I fail to see how Alabama is a worse job than St. John's (aside from geography). Alabama has a massive budget, plays in a football conference with some legendary basketball programs (high ceiling plus low-ish expectations) and was a bird in the hand. St. John's has history that's getting more ancient every day and a good basketball league. That's it. Yes, they paid Mullin more than Oats is getting, but 1) the job wasn't there before and 2) Nate Oates is not the greatest player in St. John's basketball history.
It's pretty clear that he landed a great job. You have to be completely aloof to think that St. John's is the better job today.
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