Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Perspective
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Buck.Cat
4/7/2019 2:34 PM
Who were the current players?
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giacomo
4/7/2019 4:27 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/sports/ncaa-final-four...

Talking about penalizing a school by taking away a scholarship if the graduate transfer doesn’t graduate in one year.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
4/7/2019 5:58 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
. . . My daughter played four years of D3 volleyball and was able to enjoy the whole college experience - a full load of classes each semester for four years, four years of successful athletic competition, president of her sorority, countless hours in the classroom preparing to be an elementary teacher including student teaching, and enough of a social life to "snag a husband." Being an indentured servant was far from her experience and for that we are thankful.
Very good points here, Alan. The concept that certain posters keep hammering away at that college athletes are somehow downtrodden and only slightly above medieval serfs is a complete fabrication.
And the argument that college athletes must be downtrodden indentured servants to warrant paying them is a complete red herring.

People in the United States deserve to be compensated commensurate with their value. Every single member of the Duke basketball team could be heirs to the Walton Family fortune and that wouldn't change that they're earning money for everybody but themselves.
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rpbobcat
4/7/2019 7:59 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
People in the United States deserve to be compensated commensurate with their value. Every single member of the Duke basketball team could be heirs to the Walton Family fortune and that wouldn't change that they're earning money for everybody but themselves.
So how exactly would this work ?

Taking Duke as an example.
Last season they had 3 starters who we head and shoulders above the other players.

They have more "value",so do you pay them more ?

What about guys on the team who never play ?

Their financial value is zero.

Title IX would also require paying all athletes,financial value or not.

From my perspective, as a former college athlete,you know going in that your "compensation" is a free college education.

As a 2 sport walk on,I would have been very happy with that.
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giacomo
4/7/2019 9:40 PM
Is the last player on the bench of an NBA team worth zero? They prepare and practice and will get their opportunity to play. Maybe you’re willing to play for only a scholarship in today’s climate is you weren’t good enough to play.
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Alan Swank
4/7/2019 10:30 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
. . . My daughter played four years of D3 volleyball and was able to enjoy the whole college experience - a full load of classes each semester for four years, four years of successful athletic competition, president of her sorority, countless hours in the classroom preparing to be an elementary teacher including student teaching, and enough of a social life to "snag a husband." Being an indentured servant was far from her experience and for that we are thankful.
Very good points here, Alan. The concept that certain posters keep hammering away at that college athletes are somehow downtrodden and only slightly above medieval serfs is a complete fabrication.
I think you may be missing Alan's point, OCF. I think he meant that the Div I model demands too much of an athlete's time year round, but that the Div III model allowed his daughter to have more of a well rounded college experience.
Exactly Jeff and from there the thread went sideways.
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rpbobcat
4/8/2019 6:43 AM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
Is the last player on the bench of an NBA team worth zero? They prepare and practice and will get their opportunity to play. Maybe you’re willing to play for only a scholarship in today’s climate is you weren’t good enough to play.
First off,you need to separate college and professional sports,unless you want to let individual college players start negotiating compensation.

BLSOS's post referred to compensation based on "commensurate value".

That means some players should be paid more then others.In some cases,a lot more.

There are a few football and basketball programs that do "make money".

So does that mean that only players in profitable football and basketball programs would be entitled to compensation ?

You'd also have to exclude players in non revenue producing sports.

Given the NCAA's distribution of scholarships,in certain sports,even some starters don't get a full ride.

Ask any of them if they'd be happy with a free college education.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
4/8/2019 10:18 AM
rpbobcat wrote:expand_more
People in the United States deserve to be compensated commensurate with their value. Every single member of the Duke basketball team could be heirs to the Walton Family fortune and that wouldn't change that they're earning money for everybody but themselves.
So how exactly would this work ?

Taking Duke as an example.
Last season they had 3 starters who we head and shoulders above the other players.

They have more "value",so do you pay them more ?

What about guys on the team who never play ?

Their financial value is zero.

Title IX would also require paying all athletes,financial value or not.

From my perspective, as a former college athlete,you know going in that your "compensation" is a free college education.

As a 2 sport walk on,I would have been very happy with that.
Haven't we had this conversation before? Just let the free market do it's thing.

The universities don't have to be the ones paying them, all they have to do is relax the restrictions on outside earnings. Zion could have easily pulled in millions of dollars in a shoe deal from Nike this year. Problem solved.
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OhioCatFan
4/8/2019 10:58 AM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
. . . My daughter played four years of D3 volleyball and was able to enjoy the whole college experience - a full load of classes each semester for four years, four years of successful athletic competition, president of her sorority, countless hours in the classroom preparing to be an elementary teacher including student teaching, and enough of a social life to "snag a husband." Being an indentured servant was far from her experience and for that we are thankful.
Very good points here, Alan. The concept that certain posters keep hammering away at that college athletes are somehow downtrodden and only slightly above medieval serfs is a complete fabrication.
I think you may be missing Alan's point, OCF. I think he meant that the Div I model demands too much of an athlete's time year round, but that the Div III model allowed his daughter to have more of a well rounded college experience.
I realize he was talking about a D3 experience, Jeff, but I thought he was also making a general point about college athletes at all levels. I guess he can let us know how broad a point he was making.
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OhioCatFan
4/8/2019 11:03 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
. . . My daughter played four years of D3 volleyball and was able to enjoy the whole college experience - a full load of classes each semester for four years, four years of successful athletic competition, president of her sorority, countless hours in the classroom preparing to be an elementary teacher including student teaching, and enough of a social life to "snag a husband." Being an indentured servant was far from her experience and for that we are thankful.
Very good points here, Alan. The concept that certain posters keep hammering away at that college athletes are somehow downtrodden and only slightly above medieval serfs is a complete fabrication.
I think you may be missing Alan's point, OCF. I think he meant that the Div I model demands too much of an athlete's time year round, but that the Div III model allowed his daughter to have more of a well rounded college experience.
Exactly Jeff and from there the thread went sideways.
OK, I stand corrected. Sorry, Alan, that I misinterpreted your remarks as having a boarder implication.
Last Edited: 4/8/2019 11:03:30 AM by OhioCatFan
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Alan Swank
4/8/2019 11:14 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
. . . My daughter played four years of D3 volleyball and was able to enjoy the whole college experience - a full load of classes each semester for four years, four years of successful athletic competition, president of her sorority, countless hours in the classroom preparing to be an elementary teacher including student teaching, and enough of a social life to "snag a husband." Being an indentured servant was far from her experience and for that we are thankful.
Very good points here, Alan. The concept that certain posters keep hammering away at that college athletes are somehow downtrodden and only slightly above medieval serfs is a complete fabrication.
I think you may be missing Alan's point, OCF. I think he meant that the Div I model demands too much of an athlete's time year round, but that the Div III model allowed his daughter to have more of a well rounded college experience.
Exactly Jeff and from there the thread went sideways.
OK, I stand corrected. Sorry, Alan, that I misinterpreted your remarks as having a boarder implication.
OCF, you and Jeff were both right. Even at some D 3 schools the demands on the kids are out of control. In kind of like the cost of college. Rather than making "financial aid" more readily available perhaps we should look to contain costs. The ease of securing loans has driven up the cost of an education without even considering "does it really need to cost this much."
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rpbobcat
4/8/2019 11:32 AM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
People in the United States deserve to be compensated commensurate with their value. Every single member of the Duke basketball team could be heirs to the Walton Family fortune and that wouldn't change that they're earning money for everybody but themselves.
So how exactly would this work ?

Taking Duke as an example.
Last season they had 3 starters who we head and shoulders above the other players.

They have more "value",so do you pay them more ?

What about guys on the team who never play ?

Their financial value is zero.

Title IX would also require paying all athletes,financial value or not.

From my perspective, as a former college athlete,you know going in that your "compensation" is a free college education.

As a 2 sport walk on,I would have been very happy with that.
Haven't we had this conversation before? Just let the free market do it's thing.

The universities don't have to be the ones paying them, all they have to do is relax the restrictions on outside earnings. Zion could have easily pulled in millions of dollars in a shoe deal from Nike this year. Problem solved.
I don't see any reason why a kid shouldn't be able make an endorsement deal with a shoe or other type of company.

Only thing,what happens if a kid wants an endorsement deal with Nike, and the University he's playing for uses Adidas ?
Last Edited: 4/8/2019 11:35:03 AM by rpbobcat
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cc-cat
4/8/2019 11:57 AM
The NCAA does not give a rip about the well-being or rights of the general student athlete - any of them. Their only interest is in the financial sanctity of the football and men's basketball programs because THAT is where THEIR money is. They could care less if a college golfer, swimmer, or wrestler made cash on the side. The only reason they stop it is because it would set a precedent for football and basketball players - and any relinquishment of power of the purse to the players jeopardizes the very financial pyramid they have constructed for themselves. They declare the holiness and value of a college education (often dangled to those that have limited ability or interest in fulfilling such a course) while counting their billions and limiting the rights and power of the very football and basketball players that generate the cash flow - while the same time feigning to genuflect to student athletes in the lesser sports who scrap for partial scholarships and often abandon what little money they received once they find out how time consuming college sports are and how much better others are (meaning no playing time). But then many of these "partials" participate in suburban sports whose parents can afford to pick up little Billy's or Betty's college costs once they quit baseball, swimming, lacrosse, etc. So the university makes out financially on their path as well. FYI - the above is paraphrased from college president I work with. None of this is a secret.
Last Edited: 4/8/2019 2:22:48 PM by cc-cat
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Robert Fox
4/8/2019 12:55 PM
cc-cat wrote:expand_more
But then many of these "partials" participate in suburban (read white) sports whose parents can afford to pick up little Billy's or Betty's college costs once they quit baseball, swimming, lacrosse, etc. So the university makes out financially on their path as well. FYI - the above is paraphrased from college president I work with. None of this is a secret.
So non-revenue sports are "racist." Good to know.
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Ohio69
4/8/2019 1:36 PM
cc-cat wrote:expand_more
The NCAA does not give a rip about the well-being or rights of the general student athlete - any of them. Their only interest is in the financial sanctity of the football and men's basketball programs because THAT is where THEIR money is. They could care less if a college golfer, swimmer, or wrestler made cash on the side. The only reason they stop it is because it would set a precedent for football and basketball players - and any relinquishment of power of the purse to the players jeopardizes the very financial pyramid they have constructed for themselves. They declare the holiness and value of a college education (often dangled to those that have limited ability or interest in fulfilling such a course) while counting their billions and limiting the rights and power of the very football and basketball players that generate the cash flow - while the same time feigning to genuflect to student athletes in the lesser sports who scrap for partial scholarships and often abandon what little money they received once they find out how time consuming college sports are and how much better others are (meaning no playing time). But then many of these "partials" participate in suburban (read white) sports whose parents can afford to pick up little Billy's or Betty's college costs once they quit baseball, swimming, lacrosse, etc. So the university makes out financially on their path as well. FYI - the above is paraphrased from college president I work with. None of this is a secret.
Boy your president friend is a little too jaded me thinks. There are about 65 P5 schools. They are each counting millions and most of them lose money on sports. If I was a P5 school or the NCAA I wouldn't change too much at all. Maybe guarantee room and board for 5 years no matter what. And make it a bit easier for players to move around. That's about it.

By far best deal out there for 18-21 year olds for basketball and football is what the NCAA provides right now. By far. Yet we act like the NCAA is evil. Seems a bit strange.
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giacomo
4/8/2019 1:53 PM
You work for a company that has diverse products and markets. The VPs for each division make 100k each except two- they each make 3M. All of the employees make 50k, but many make less. Sounds like a great place to work.
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cc-cat
4/8/2019 2:31 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
So non-revenue sports are "racist." Good to know.
[/QUOTE]Never said the sports were racist - but I'lll strike the "Read white" from the post so as to not distract the larger point. That being that the the only thing that matters is the color green - and suburban families have that money. In fact the university I work with recently added a number of sports - with the calculation and understanding that the effort would result in increased enrollment (as Billy and Betty want to play their sport in college) and will result in a number of the student athletes retiring from their sport after a year out two BUT many will stay in school with their parents footing the bill. In essence they give a partial for a year or two, but get full tuition in the subsequent years.

[QUOTE=Ohio69]
Boy your president friend is a little too jaded me thinks. There are about 65 P5 schools. They are each counting millions and most of them lose money on sports. If I was a P5 school or the NCAA I wouldn't change too much at all. Maybe guarantee room and board for 5 years no matter what. And make it a bit easier for players to move around. That's about it.

By far best deal out there for 18-21 year olds for basketball and football is what the NCAA provides right now. By far. Yet we act like the NCAA is evil. Seems a bit strange.
Perhaps jaded, but better I make the distinction between the NCAA organization and member schools - many of which (but not nearly all) take great efforts to provide a valuable student-athlete experience. The NCAA on the other hand is focused in on protecting the cash cows. Not staying the system needs turned on its ear, but it is hardly a fair system for many athletes in today's money sports. - and money is what it is all about - at the NCAA organization level and at the institution level - just ask the FBI. Or better yet Call Saul. He got fired because interest in the program was waning and money was declining as fewer and fewer fans showed up for games. Poor recruiting and losing was the cause, but the loss of money was the result.
Last Edited: 4/8/2019 2:42:40 PM by cc-cat
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bshot44
4/8/2019 3:01 PM
Obc2 wrote:expand_more
my hunch is players didn't feel animosity towards Saul for his paycheck, especially if their experience with him was like a recent post on this board.

under his predecessor? yeah, i could imagine so.
I find it a tad bit humorous ... and sad how some folks just pile on Jim Christian like he was/is the devil.

If he is such an awul dude that his players hated ... why do we see this every year?

https://twitter.com/CoachEKentState/status/11142387469778...

A quick glance and you'll see Stevie Taylor, Walter Offutt, Aaron Fuss and Ricardo Johnson.

If he's such an awful guy, why is everyone smiling in this photo?

I'm sorry ... I can't blame a guy for getting a chance to go coach at an ACC school near where he grew up for over double what he was getting paid at Ohio.

He would have been super successful at Ohio ... I have zero doubt. I wish Ohio could have kept him ... but it didn't work out that way. But the cheap shots he continues to get on this message board are pretty laughable.
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longtiimelurker
4/8/2019 3:46 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
If he's such an awful guy, why is everyone smiling in this photo?

.
Because they are eating on his dime?
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Ohio69
4/8/2019 4:59 PM
cc-cat wrote:expand_more
So non-revenue sports are "racist." Good to know.
Never said the sports were racist - but I'lll strike the "Read white" from the post so as to not distract the larger point. That being that the the only thing that matters is the color green - and suburban families have that money. In fact the university I work with recently added a number of sports - with the calculation and understanding that the effort would result in increased enrollment (as Billy and Betty want to play their sport in college) and will result in a number of the student athletes retiring from their sport after a year out two BUT many will stay in school with their parents footing the bill. In essence they give a partial for a year or two, but get full tuition in the subsequent years.

Boy your president friend is a little too jaded me thinks. There are about 65 P5 schools. They are each counting millions and most of them lose money on sports. If I was a P5 school or the NCAA I wouldn't change too much at all. Maybe guarantee room and board for 5 years no matter what. And make it a bit easier for players to move around. That's about it.

By far best deal out there for 18-21 year olds for basketball and football is what the NCAA provides right now. By far. Yet we act like the NCAA is evil. Seems a bit strange.
Perhaps jaded, but better I make the distinction between the NCAA organization and member schools - many of which (but not nearly all) take great efforts to provide a valuable student-athlete experience. The NCAA on the other hand is focused in on protecting the cash cows. Not staying the system needs turned on its ear, but it is hardly a fair system for many athletes in today's money sports. - and money is what it is all about - at the NCAA organization level and at the institution level - just ask the FBI. Or better yet Call Saul. He got fired because interest in the program was waning and money was declining as fewer and fewer fans showed up for games. Poor recruiting and losing was the cause, but the loss of money was the result.
Well, fair enough. I get it. I didn't google it but it would be interesting to see how much NCAA income is turned over to the schools. I'm guessing a lot and its used to fun all sports or something.
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IceCat76
4/8/2019 7:50 PM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
So non-revenue sports are "racist." Good to know.
Never said the sports were racist - but I'lll strike the "Read white" from the post so as to not distract the larger point. That being that the the only thing that matters is the color green - and suburban families have that money. In fact the university I work with recently added a number of sports - with the calculation and understanding that the effort would result in increased enrollment (as Billy and Betty want to play their sport in college) and will result in a number of the student athletes retiring from their sport after a year out two BUT many will stay in school with their parents footing the bill. In essence they give a partial for a year or two, but get full tuition in the subsequent years.

Boy your president friend is a little too jaded me thinks. There are about 65 P5 schools. They are each counting millions and most of them lose money on sports. If I was a P5 school or the NCAA I wouldn't change too much at all. Maybe guarantee room and board for 5 years no matter what. And make it a bit easier for players to move around. That's about it.

By far best deal out there for 18-21 year olds for basketball and football is what the NCAA provides right now. By far. Yet we act like the NCAA is evil. Seems a bit strange.
Perhaps jaded, but better I make the distinction between the NCAA organization and member schools - many of which (but not nearly all) take great efforts to provide a valuable student-athlete experience. The NCAA on the other hand is focused in on protecting the cash cows. Not staying the system needs turned on its ear, but it is hardly a fair system for many athletes in today's money sports. - and money is what it is all about - at the NCAA organization level and at the institution level - just ask the FBI. Or better yet Call Saul. He got fired because interest in the program was waning and money was declining as fewer and fewer fans showed up for games. Poor recruiting and losing was the cause, but the loss of money was the result.
Well, fair enough. I get it. I didn't google it but it would be interesting to see how much NCAA income is turned over to the schools. I'm guessing a lot and its used to fun all sports or something.

Here's where it goes.
http://www.ncaa.org/about/where-does-money-go
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cc-cat
4/8/2019 9:46 PM
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