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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act
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giacomo
5/19/2020 10:12 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ncaa-takes-another-court-hit...

From today’s WSJ.
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BillyTheCat
5/19/2020 11:40 AM
You know sometimes what you think sounds like such a great idea, in the end may not turn out very well for the you. Just saying. Opportunities and education may go away if compensation is forced. You really think OHIO University could afford to pay their athletes (at most any time), right now? No way!
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
5/19/2020 12:56 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
You know sometimes what you think sounds like such a great idea, in the end may not turn out very well for the you. Just saying. Opportunities and education may go away if compensation is forced. You really think OHIO University could afford to pay their athletes (at most any time), right now? No way!
The way I see it, when athletes end up compensated -- and I do think it's an inevitability -- schools will have one of two paths to take.

The P5 schools will mostly opt to provide compensation in some form or another. G5 schools, on the other hand, can and should use that as an opportunity to reset how they operate and revert back to true amateurism.

We are where we are because Universities and the NCAA have tried to have their cake and eat it too for far too long.
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BillyTheCat
5/19/2020 6:29 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
You know sometimes what you think sounds like such a great idea, in the end may not turn out very well for the you. Just saying. Opportunities and education may go away if compensation is forced. You really think OHIO University could afford to pay their athletes (at most any time), right now? No way!
The way I see it, when athletes end up compensated -- and I do think it's an inevitability -- schools will have one of two paths to take.

The P5 schools will mostly opt to provide compensation in some form or another. G5 schools, on the other hand, can and should use that as an opportunity to reset how they operate and revert back to true amateurism.

We are where we are because Universities and the NCAA have tried to have their cake and eat it too for far too long.
How can there be true amateurism? Even at the DIII level, athletes would be able to get paid, and what is paid. Do not for get Title IX has to come into play and equitity. When the Football or basketball player is making money off the public educational institution Then the Field Hockey Athlete will need to be compensated as well. And endorsements? Watch our local industry out bid the Toledo, SW Ohio or NE Ohio area for sponsorship dollars.
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giacomo
5/19/2020 9:44 PM
I don’t see what the fuss is all about. So some athletes make money. Plenty of students work part time jobs. Some music majors make a few bucks doing gigs on the side. I like it a lot better than coach K making 10M and the players making Richard.
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Alan Swank
5/19/2020 9:47 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
I like it a lot better than coach K making 10M and the players making Richard.
I think you meant George. I never saw Nixon's face on a bill.
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GraffZ06
5/20/2020 12:14 AM
So what are all these "athletes" going to do when there's no more "athletics" because none of the schools can afford it?

Oh sure - the P5 will play ball. So congrats, 50 teams max.

Just do away with it already and call it the minor leagues / developmental leagues that it's becoming.

Mark my words, high school sports is coming next. ZOMG the schools make profit on football ticket and concession sales and split the pot! They're profiting off the poor high school kids! Pay em!

Lunacy.

Edit - Of course it was the 9th Circuit.
Last Edited: 5/20/2020 12:15:36 AM by GraffZ06
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Jeff McKinney
5/20/2020 12:49 AM
GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
So what are all these "athletes" going to do when there's no more "athletics" because none of the schools can afford it?

Oh sure - the P5 will play ball. So congrats, 50 teams max.

Just do away with it already and call it the minor leagues / developmental leagues that it's becoming.

Mark my words, high school sports is coming next. ZOMG the schools make profit on football ticket and concession sales and split the pot! They're profiting off the poor high school kids! Pay em!

Lunacy.

Edit - Of course it was the 9th Circuit.
You make a good point.

We may end up going more in the direction of the model used in a lot of countries where the schools don't sponsor, but instead there are club teams
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
5/20/2020 9:20 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
How can there be true amateurism? Even at the DIII level, athletes would be able to get paid, and what is paid. Do not for get Title IX has to come into play and equitity. When the Football or basketball player is making money off the public educational institution Then the Field Hockey Athlete will need to be compensated as well. And endorsements? Watch our local industry out bid the Toledo, SW Ohio or NE Ohio area for sponsorship dollars.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here.

On the one hand, it seems to be an acknowledgement that amateurism isn't possible (I disagree, for what it's worth).

On the other, it seems to be the same old refrain about how endorsements will impact competitive balance. I don't disagree that they will impact competitive balance; I just don't understand why that should be the basis for the decision.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
5/20/2020 9:28 AM
GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
So what are all these "athletes" going to do when there's no more "athletics" because none of the schools can afford it?

Oh sure - the P5 will play ball. So congrats, 50 teams max.

Just do away with it already and call it the minor leagues / developmental leagues that it's becoming.

Mark my words, high school sports is coming next. ZOMG the schools make profit on football ticket and concession sales and split the pot! They're profiting off the poor high school kids! Pay em!

Lunacy.

Edit - Of course it was the 9th Circuit.
The fact that P5 and G5 schools are currently governed by the same regulations does not mean that has to remain the case in perpetuity.

If schools can't afford to pay athletes, then they shouldn't pay athletes. There's literally nothing stopping them from competing at a lower level where student athletes are in school for the education and also choose to participate in sports because they enjoy it and want to. That is, ironically, what so many claim to love about college sports in the first place. So it's very unclear to me why a big chunk of schools reverting back to that's such a problem for people.
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giacomo
5/20/2020 11:11 AM
I agree, Sense of Shame. The main problem as I see it is that a handful of schools, Alabama, OSU, ND and some others are really moneymaking enterprises and not amateur in any way. Coaches salaries, facilities, revenue, tv exposure are professional. Then you have all the wannabes that think if they just spend more money they will get to the promised land, which is false.
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Jeff McKinney
5/20/2020 12:37 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
I agree, Sense of Shame. The main problem as I see it is that a handful of schools, Alabama, OSU, ND and some others are really moneymaking enterprises and not amateur in any way. Coaches salaries, facilities, revenue, tv exposure are professional. Then you have all the wannabes that think if they just spend more money they will get to the promised land, which is false.
Western Michugan had a big season, including a strong performance in the Cotton Bowl, a few years back. Northern Illinois appeared in the Orange Bowl. What good has that done these schools in long term viability? As I see it, their attendance etc has come right back to the pack in the MAC. Not worth the investment.

I know Northern and Western got big payouts, but in the long term what are the chances of replicating that often enough to make being in the athletics arms race worth it?
Last Edited: 5/20/2020 12:43:53 PM by Jeff McKinney
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
5/20/2020 12:43 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
I agree, Sense of Shame. The main problem as I see it is that a handful of schools, Alabama, OSU, ND and some others are really moneymaking enterprises and not amateur in any way. Coaches salaries, facilities, revenue, tv exposure are professional. Then you have all the wannabes that think if they just spend more money they will get to the promised land, which is false.
Western Michugan had a big season, including a strong performance in the Cotton Bowl, a few years back. Northern Illinois appeared in the Orange Bowl. What good has that done these schools in long term viability? As I see it, their attendance etc has come right back to the pack in the MAC. Not worth the investment.
Totally agree. The fact that both Northern Illinois and Western Michigan were undefeated and neither was given the opportunity to compete for a national championship just underscores your point.

The system's set up in such a way that G5 teams have to clear a much higher bar to be eligible for the playoff. Continuing to invest in that system is Sisyphean.
Last Edited: 5/20/2020 12:46:20 PM by Jeff McKinney
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Jeff McKinney
5/20/2020 12:47 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
I agree, Sense of Shame. The main problem as I see it is that a handful of schools, Alabama, OSU, ND and some others are really moneymaking enterprises and not amateur in any way. Coaches salaries, facilities, revenue, tv exposure are professional. Then you have all the wannabes that think if they just spend more money they will get to the promised land, which is false.
Western Michugan had a big season, including a strong performance in the Cotton Bowl, a few years back. Northern Illinois appeared in the Orange Bowl. What good has that done these schools in long term viability? As I see it, their attendance etc has come right back to the pack in the MAC. Not worth the investment.
Totally agree. The fact that both Northern Illinois and Western Michigan were undefeated and neither was given the opportunity to compete for a national championship just underscores your point.

The system's set up in such a way that G5 teams have to clear a much higher bar to be eligible for the playoff. Continuing to invest in that system is Sisyphean.
FCS playoffs would make a ton more sense.
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Ted Thompson
5/20/2020 1:40 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
I agree, Sense of Shame. The main problem as I see it is that a handful of schools, Alabama, OSU, ND and some others are really moneymaking enterprises and not amateur in any way. Coaches salaries, facilities, revenue, tv exposure are professional. Then you have all the wannabes that think if they just spend more money they will get to the promised land, which is false.
Western Michugan had a big season, including a strong performance in the Cotton Bowl, a few years back. Northern Illinois appeared in the Orange Bowl. What good has that done these schools in long term viability? As I see it, their attendance etc has come right back to the pack in the MAC. Not worth the investment.
Totally agree. The fact that both Northern Illinois and Western Michigan were undefeated and neither was given the opportunity to compete for a national championship just underscores your point.

The system's set up in such a way that G5 teams have to clear a much higher bar to be eligible for the playoff. Continuing to invest in that system is Sisyphean.
FCS playoffs would make a ton more sense.
Jeff,

The MAC decided a long time ago not to join the arms race. Ergo, Miami's cradle of coaches. Their coaches pay, the size of stadiums, facilities are all a fraction of the P5. They try to compete as best they within budgets that make sense for them. Every now again, they catch lightning in a bottle.

The FCS playoffs make no sense for anyone. That's why the Appalachian State's of the world go FBS.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
5/20/2020 2:37 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
The FCS playoffs make no sense for anyone. That's why the Appalachian State's of the word go FBS.
The folks at the top of the heap in FCS are basically in the same revenue situation as the MAC. Our football revenue of 9 million would be tops in FCS, but only by about 1.5 million.
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Ted Thompson
5/20/2020 2:48 PM
What I would like to see from the MAC is some sort of path to sustainability, no matter how slow. Like here's how we will grow revenue, here's how we grow endowment (former athletes committing to endow x scholarships per year). At the end of the day, athletics expenses are somewhere in the neighborhood of 3% of a school's total expenses. So they are somewhat protected from cuts in that their size just doesn't make a huge impact in savings.

But it would be good to gain agreement that athletics, like the arts or other student activities, is worth some percentage of total expenditures. If that number is 2% or 3%, then Athletics lives within that budget and we don't have to keep having this discussion.
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Alan Swank
5/20/2020 3:09 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
I agree, Sense of Shame. The main problem as I see it is that a handful of schools, Alabama, OSU, ND and some others are really moneymaking enterprises and not amateur in any way. Coaches salaries, facilities, revenue, tv exposure are professional. Then you have all the wannabes that think if they just spend more money they will get to the promised land, which is false.
Western Michugan had a big season, including a strong performance in the Cotton Bowl, a few years back. Northern Illinois appeared in the Orange Bowl. What good has that done these schools in long term viability? As I see it, their attendance etc has come right back to the pack in the MAC. Not worth the investment.
Totally agree. The fact that both Northern Illinois and Western Michigan were undefeated and neither was given the opportunity to compete for a national championship just underscores your point.

The system's set up in such a way that G5 teams have to clear a much higher bar to be eligible for the playoff. Continuing to invest in that system is Sisyphean.
FCS playoffs would make a ton more sense.
Jeff,

The MAC decided a long time ago not to join the arms race. Ergo, Miami's cradle of coaches. Their coaches pay, the size of stadiums, facilities are all a fraction of the P5. They try to compete as best they within budgets that make sense for them. Every now again, they catch lightning in a bottle.

The FCS playoffs make no sense for anyone. That's why the Appalachian State's of the world go FBS.
I really like 12 and 13.

https://www.bannersociety.com/2019/8/14/20732294/fbs-fcs-...
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Jeff McKinney
5/20/2020 5:31 PM
Ted,

The problem with paths to sustainability is that the plans for getting there are based on uncertain fundraising futures.
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Alan Swank
5/20/2020 7:37 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Ted,

The problem with paths to sustainability is that the plans for getting there are based on uncertain fundraising futures.
Good point Jeff. Why would current day athletes about to graduate or recent graduates give in more than those from 10, 20, or 30 years ago. For whatever reason, people just don't give to public universities in general like they do to private ones. There just isn't the same level of financial affinity.
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JSF
5/21/2020 12:51 AM
GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
So what are all these "athletes" going to do when there's no more "athletics" because none of the schools can afford it?
Sounds like the market will work it out.
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giacomo
5/21/2020 1:54 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
The FCS playoffs make no sense for anyone. That's why the Appalachian State's of the word go FBS.
The folks at the top of the heap in FCS are basically in the same revenue situation as the MAC. Our football revenue of 9 million would be tops in FCS, but only by about 1.5 million.
Are you saying OUR football revenue is 9 Million or the entire MAC? It can't be our revenue number.
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Ted Thompson
5/21/2020 2:30 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Ted,

The problem with paths to sustainability is that the plans for getting there are based on uncertain fundraising futures.
All I'm saying is agree on what value Athletics brings to a university. Whether that's 2% or 3% or whatever, the athletic department lives within that budget and can use fundraising to raise its standard of living.
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Ted Thompson
5/21/2020 2:32 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
The FCS playoffs make no sense for anyone. That's why the Appalachian State's of the word go FBS.
The folks at the top of the heap in FCS are basically in the same revenue situation as the MAC. Our football revenue of 9 million would be tops in FCS, but only by about 1.5 million.
Are you saying OUR football revenue is 9 Million or the entire MAC? It can't be our revenue number.
The reason the EADA reports are worth the square root of crap is that there are no standard accounting principles. In Ohio's EADA report, they have just have revenue = expenses whether that "revenue" comes from ticket sales or student fees.
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Ted Thompson
5/21/2020 2:38 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Ted,

The problem with paths to sustainability is that the plans for getting there are based on uncertain fundraising futures.
Good point Jeff. Why would current day athletes about to graduate or recent graduates give in more than those from 10, 20, or 30 years ago. For whatever reason, people just don't give to public universities in general like they do to private ones. There just isn't the same level of financial affinity.
But at least using the threat of the sport's ongoing viability should increase donations. BG baseball alumni raised $900k in one day. Can they do that annually? I don't know. Ohio Football probably has over 800 living alumni, if that group can't endow one scholarship every year then maybe Athletics isn't doing the good we think it's doing.

When Ohio cut track and field, why not throw out an endowment number? If we hit a $5M endowment number, we'll bring back the sport. I don't see the harm in that.
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