OK 69, I'll take the bait.  Assuming we could spend more, where in the basketball budget would you spend it and what would be the direct results of that spending?  

Here's an example, if I hired a service to do my lawn, it would look better year round than it does now.  I spend and I see the results.  So for basketball, list your spends and tell us what the measurable results would be.

So let me get this right - in basketball, if we spend more money on bringing in bigger name opponents and pay our coaches more, we'll have better outcomes?  And exactly what empirical evidence can you offer to support those points?  I hope to heck the people allotting money for your department's annual budget at OU ask for better justification than that?

I get a kick out of discussions about indoor practice facilities.  I just don't know that I buy into their value.  For example, UC just built one for practicing in December and getting ready for bowls...oh, they aren't going to a bowl this year.  Doesn't Akron have one of these too?  Who is using these facilities now?  Another example is the NFL...how many northern teams have indoor facilities?  I know the Bungals don't.  Just saying, I'm not sold on paying a ton of money on a facility that is NOT widely used.  I guess the arguement is baseball and the other sports can use it...or something like that.

I guess since the Jones's have one, OUr team needs one too.

Jeff,

I don't want to get into the funding argument. I don't think the MAC's standing in relationship to other conferences has changed much. I mean Toledo hired a coach FROM the Horizon League. I think people underestimate what bad coaching hires or coaching changes can do to a conference. Especially a conference that already has to carry the drag of Eastern Michigan.

I just don't see the downward trend. In football, the MAC had its best rank (8th) in 2008 for the years I have Sagarins (back to 1998). As recently as 2007-08, the MAC was ranked 12th in Hoops RPI. Then, in 2008, the MAC had its worst year for which I have RPI data (back to 1998-99). It was ranked 21st. But I don't think a gap in pay suddenly opened. There were some bad coaching hires or coaching changes. What happened:

- Ohio went from 88 to 184. Transition from TOS to Groce, cupboard bare, etc.
- Toledo went from 187 to 317. Gene Cross takes over and starts to inflict damage to the MAC that we still feel today.
- Northern Illinois went from 295 to 328. Ricardo Patton inherited a death spiral that he perpetuates to this day.
- Western Michigan went from 117 to 301. It looked like that would be the end for Steve Hawkins but he used David Kool's senior year to rebound to 150 last year and save his job.
- Eastern Michigan went from 236 to 318. Nothing new here, perennial conference killer in basketball and football.
- Central Michigan went from 184 to 297. Ernie Ziegler still trying to dig out of Jay Smith's mess.

I think it's a case of bad coaching hires. I'm not sure that money has impacted that. The MAC continues to draw from the same pool of candidates it always has. I do support your question of asking why this is happening. I would like to see someone study the negative impact of schools like EMU and BG have on the conference. I also wouldn't mind a fine system that would penalize schools for consistently performing below certain barriers (200 and 300 level in Hoops RPI and 100 level in Football Sagarin).

You're right about salaries to coaches in the MVC - SIU bumped Chris Lowery's salary to $750,000 and two years later they're ready to run him out of town.  Speaking of salaries, would our president be doing any less of a job had he not gotten that $85,000 raise a few years back?  He gets up each day and puts in a solid days work.  If we give him $100,000 more is he going to get up any earlier or work any harder?  I doubt it because he gets up early and works hard now.

Good teachers and good students improve your program.  We need good coaches who can recruit good players.

Wouldn't that be something!

Instead of defeatist, perhaps the operative word is realist.  On this board, it is a vocal minority.  In the real world, it is the silent majority.  Many regular posters played high school sports at best.  For those who didn't leave the SEOAL to join the TVC, I think they can look in the mirror and accurately reflect on the level of competition they played.  If we did the same today at OU, we would see the level that we're currently playing.   There is nothing wrong at being good at what you do and aspiring to be the best at that level.  We're not even close to being the best at our level.

Exactly.  Someone can sit here and tell me all day that liberal arts makes for a more well-rounded student, but does it really have a valuable impact on their job skill at the end of the day?  Be completely honest.  

Per Jeff's table, it looks like Ohio and the other MAC schools just need to SPEND at least $50 mil on Athletics and $5 mil on basketball to get on "par" with the big boys...good luck getting that kind of money.  So, this really is about the schools the draw 50k forr football and 10+k for basketball REGULARLY and have committed/can commit that kind of money.  Those that draw 20k for football and 5k for basketball are probably just dreaming for that one big game every 10 years...

And let me make one thing clear, I am NOT a defeatist!  I played a "minor" sport at OHIO and I want the school to compete on the highest level it can and I wish that could be BCS.  I have simply changed my opinion over 40+ years of watching the MAC and Ohio and where both find themselves today. 

And, by the way, you can make all the excuses about coaching, recruiting, etc but the FACT is still that the MAC is at a lower level NOW then ever.  And, if we are closer to anybody in funding, coaches and players it is the Southern and CAA, NOT the Big 10/12 and SEC. 

Oops one other comment about coaching and recruiting.  We certainly have a "name" FB coach.  One might assume he could recruit 4 and 5 star players?  Not quite so.  As I told the Temple guy, there is a pecking order in College and OHIO and the MAC are not and probably cannot get to the top tier schools.  So, we willl always hope for a few 3* recruits at best.

Unfortunately, I believe that is just the reality of the current situation...

Please give me an example. Ohio got the guy they wanted in Groce who was a top assistant at a big-budget BCS school. Toledo got Gene Cross who was a top assistant at a big-budget BCS school. The Groce hire seems to be solid while Cross was a colossal failure. Money had nothing to do with that. In fact, to rectify the Cross hire, Toledo went and hired a head coach from the Horizon League. A league that you say we're falling behind.

I think the sources for MAC coaches have been the same as they always have been. But who in the last 10 years has been exceptional?

I think the better question is should a mid-major conference have 12 teams. It's tough to get enough cylinders firing to get a great conference ranking. The Horizon can benefit from Butler being in the Top 10 as their strength is only divided by 10 plus the other 9 members get the pop of playing Butler twice.

Not sure about the insightful thing or right/brain left brain (just took one of those 32 question internet quizzes on that and scored 16/16), but I will say that I personally enjoy talking with college students and those who have just come out of college who can hold forth on more than one subject and do so without getting angry or raising their voice.  Passion is important but can the individual present his or her point of view in an intelligent well thought out manner.  That is one of the benefits of liberal arts education that requires more than just listening to some professor or watching power point presentations.

I'd be curious as to what classes you found distasteful and why.

We don't need A LOT more $ - we need ONE Big Man!

Until we get that - likely Groce is here for some time to come................