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OrlandoCat
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Posted: 3/30/2011 3:58 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
and what we get for the investment?


Not that I'm going to look up numbers from the dept. of edu. to back this up buuuttt....

Nearly beating Florida in 06, and beating GTown in 10 > Any bowl game we get into against a CUSA et all also ran which is probably voted 'most boring/least intresting bowl' by espn.com

If we hold the above to be true; then a consistantly better basketball team would be a better ROI then football, seeing as how the latter is all we can ever aspire to be given the curent state of NCAA FB and the MAC.


That could be true. But there's no guarantee that additional dollars gets us anything more then we get now. Which included NCAA bids in 2005 and 2010, two other postseason appearances and an NCAA win.


Just like saying 500k less in football doesn't mean we no longer go 7-5 in the MAC and play in that other bowl in New Orleans.

I look at it this way; I wouldn't even know Gonzaga, and to a lesser extent Butler, exist if it wasn't for their basketball team.  We could easily have the resourses to compete with them if we realocate funds.  Meanwhile, we're never compete money wise with 90% of the big east, never mind make a meaningfull bowl game.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 4:17 PM
OrlandoCat wrote:expand_more
and what we get for the investment?


Not that I'm going to look up numbers from the dept. of edu. to back this up buuuttt....

Nearly beating Florida in 06, and beating GTown in 10 > Any bowl game we get into against a CUSA et all also ran which is probably voted 'most boring/least intresting bowl' by espn.com

If we hold the above to be true; then a consistantly better basketball team would be a better ROI then football, seeing as how the latter is all we can ever aspire to be given the curent state of NCAA FB and the MAC.


That could be true. But there's no guarantee that additional dollars gets us anything more then we get now. Which included NCAA bids in 2005 and 2010, two other postseason appearances and an NCAA win.


Just like saying 500k less in football doesn't mean we no longer go 7-5 in the MAC and play in that other bowl in New Orleans.

I look at it this way; I wouldn't even know Gonzaga, and to a lesser extent Butler, exist if it wasn't for their basketball team.  We could easily have the resourses to compete with them if we realocate funds.  Meanwhile, we're never compete money wise with 90% of the big east, never mind make a meaningfull bowl game.


Well, $500K less says you don't have football. At least at the FBS level. There isn't just $500K laying around. And if you drop from FBS I'm not sure how everyone thinks those dollars get reallocated . And there are 280-some non-BCS basketball schools that could say the same thing as Ohio. Of those that are trying, most aren't getting what Butler has (including BCS schools) and they may not even be getting what Ohio has. Until we find a way to turn the revenue crank, I'm not sure how you can talk about investing additionally.
OrlandoCat
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Posted: 3/30/2011 4:27 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
Well, $500K less says you don't have football. At least at the FBS level.


Again without looking up numbers to back this up, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that a 500k reduction in the football budget would still keep us in the top half of the MAC budget wise.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 4:35 PM
So I can't help myself...

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
Well, $500K less says you don't have football. At least at the FBS level. There isn't just $500K laying around.


I'm not convinced that is true.  According to the dreaded U.S. DoE data, the Sun Belt currently spends nearly $765K less per year, per team on football than does the MAC.  While the MAC may have some additional costs its football programs must incur (higher tuition perhaps), I'm not sure why we couldn't drop $500K from our football budgets and remain FBS, while still retaining the ESPN mid-week contract that is probably the biggest benefit of our FBS status. 

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
And there are 280-some non-BCS basketball schools that could say the same thing as Ohio. Of those that are trying, most aren't getting what Butler has (including BCS schools) and they may not even be getting what Ohio has. Until we find a way to turn the revenue crank, I'm not sure how you can talk about investing additionally.


While I agree that throwing more money at basketball does not guarantee significantly improved success, it would separate us from most of the rest of the non-BCS pack financially.  If you added that hypothetical $500K to basketball, the average MAC budget would be right around $2 million per year according to the DoE data, which would place us 10th overall, ahead of everyone but the six BCS conferences, the Mountain West, A-10, and West Coast Conference:

http://www.midmajority.com/redline

While nothing is guaranteed, I would expect that over time you'd see significant dividends from that type of financial investment, dividends greater than what that extra $500K gets us on the gridiron.
Last Edited: 3/30/2011 4:45:26 PM by Flomo-genized
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 3/30/2011 4:51 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
So I can't help myself...

Well, $500K less says you don't have football. At least at the FBS level. There isn't just $500K laying around.


I'm not convinced that is true.  According to the dreaded U.S. DoE data, the Sun Belt currently spends nearly $765K less per year, per team on football than does the MAC.  While the MAC may have some additional costs its football programs must incur (higher tuition perhaps), I'm not sure why we couldn't drop $500K from our football budgets and remain FBS, while still retaining the ESPN mid-week contract that is probably the biggest benefit of our FBS status. 

And there are 280-some non-BCS basketball schools that could say the same thing as Ohio. Of those that are trying, most aren't getting what Butler has (including BCS schools) and they may not even be getting what Ohio has. Until we find a way to turn the revenue crank, I'm not sure how you can talk about investing additionally.


While I agree that throwing more money at basketball does not guarantee significantly improved success, it would separate us from most of the rest of the non-BCS pack financially.  If you added that hypothetical $500K to basketball, the average MAC budget would be right around $2 million per year according to the DoE data, which would place us 10th overall, ahead of everyone but the six BCS conferences, the Mountain West, A-10, and West Coast Conference:

http://www.midmajority.com/redline

While nothing is guaranteed, I would expect that over time you'd see significant dividends from that type of financial investment, dividends greater than what that extra $500K gets us on the gridiron.


Well, again you're making decisions based upon the fact that the DOE numbers are entirely accurate. I'm just not sure what the football program is spending $500K on that can be eliminated. The coaches aren't paid outlandish sums, they have to travel and pay tuition. Where does the $500K come from?

Our current AD comes from an MVC basketball school, and while he has increased spending on basketball at a greater percentage than football no matter which numbers you use, he hasn't found a way to free up $500K.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 4:58 PM
Again, I have no idea where the MAC currently spends all of its football money.  All I know is that one source of data indicates that we spend significantly more than the Sun Belt.  Unless the DoE data significantly overstates the MAC's average football spending in some way that the Sun Belt's isn't, I'd therefore guess that the MAC could cut a fair sum from the football budget if it were so inclined.

As for Schaus, he most likely decided to leave Wichita State in order to acquire the FBS management experience necessary to propel him to a BCS level job.  In that case, one wouldn't expect him to cut from the football program in order to the give more to the basketball program.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 5:06 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Again, I have no idea where the MAC currently spends all of its football money.  All I know is that one source of data indicates that we spend significantly more than the Sun Belt.  Unless the DoE data significantly overstates the MAC's average football spending in some way that the Sun Belt's isn't, I'd therefore guess that the MAC could cut a fair sum from the football budget if it were so inclined.

As for Schaus, he most likely decided to leave Wichita State in order to acquire the FBS management experience necessary to propel him to a BCS level job.  In that case, one wouldn't expect him to cut from the football program in order to the give more to the basketball program.


But yet he has. If you go with DOE numbers, he has added $1.3M to basketball over the last 5 years. He has added $370K if you go with Ohio budget numbers.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 5:07 PM
What will we do with an additional $500,000 in basketball funds that we aren't already doing with a budget that is approx. $700,000 more than that of the league's dominant program, Kent State?  We spend more than any other school on B-ball and we are fourth-best program, maybe, in the league.  We have the best facility - by far - in the league, and yet you are saying we somehow shortchange the program.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 5:08 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
But yet he has. If you go with DOE numbers, he has added $1.3M to basketball over the last 5 years. He has added $370K if you go with Ohio budget numbers.


Sure, but not at the expense of football, which has also benefited from similar increases.  Besides, Schaus doesn't make these decisions himself, he follows the lead of the President and Board of Trustees (for better or worse).
Last Edited: 3/30/2011 5:10:11 PM by Flomo-genized
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Posted: 3/30/2011 5:13 PM
SBH wrote:expand_more
What will we do with an additional $500,000 in basketball funds that we aren't already doing with a budget that is approx. $700,000 more than that of the league's dominant program, Kent State?  We spend more than any other school on B-ball and we are fourth-best program, maybe, in the league.  We have the best facility - by far - in the league, and yet you are saying we somehow shortchange the program.


Once again SBH, I'm talking about the MAC as a whole, not necessarily Ohio in particular.  In any event, that additional $500K would provide funds to hire and retain better coaches (both head and assistant), increase recruiting budgets, upgrade facilities, travel to competitive tournaments in November and December, and buy more home games against better competition. 
Last Edited: 3/30/2011 5:18:19 PM by Flomo-genized
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Posted: 3/30/2011 5:31 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
What will we do with an additional $500,000 in basketball funds that we aren't already doing with a budget that is approx. $700,000 more than that of the league's dominant program, Kent State?  We spend more than any other school on B-ball and we are fourth-best program, maybe, in the league.  We have the best facility - by far - in the league, and yet you are saying we somehow shortchange the program.


Once again SBH, I'm talking about the MAC as a whole, not necessarily Ohio in particular.  In any event, that additional $500K would provide funds to hire and retain better coaches (both head and assistant), increase recruiting budgets, upgrade facilities, travel to competitive tournaments in November and December, and buy more home games against better competition. 


But you haven't addressed the core fact: more money doesn't bring success.  We spend, what, some 40% more than Kent on B-ball and have facilities that far outclass theirs, yet they have outperformed us for more than a decade. Our last coach - a fairly big-time East Coast assistant and recruiting specialist - was given a 7-year guaranteed deal.  Back in the 1960s, we took a leap of faith and invested in a facility that was and remains the league's best.  All of that investment hasn't led to tangible results in terms of consistent championships and NCAA appearances.  So now you want to bleed an additional 500k off the football program? And yes, I understand you are talking about the league as a whole, but this would affect us as well.  Are we going to cut Frank's staff salaries?  That's a sure way to undermine our significant progress on the gridiron. As to our inability to perform in bowl games, I lay part of the blame on a funds shortage that requires us to send our team home during the break and spend only minimally on pre-bowl practice. We have had to half-ass our approach to these bowl games and we've seen that our team has in generally not been well prepared as a result.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 5:40 PM
If money was the only factor, your argument would be stronger.  Nobody is arguing money is everything, but it's a lot.  Kent's success in spite of their spending is because of several reasons: Successive good coaching hires they subsequently have been unable to keep, lower academic standards, reliance on JUCOs, Laing Kennedy, etc.

In general, you get what you pay for.  We ranked 112th in spending for basketball, and that's on average where we sit.  You can either hope we improve or invest.  I know which is more likely to succeed.  The basketball team currently comprises about 10% of the athletic budget.  That's maybe not even half of where I would have it.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 5:43 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
But yet he has. If you go with DOE numbers, he has added $1.3M to basketball over the last 5 years. He has added $370K if you go with Ohio budget numbers.


Sure, but not at the expense of football, which has also benefited from similar increases.  Besides, Schaus doesn't make these decisions himself, he follows the lead of the President and Board of Trustees (for better or worse).


So you want the money to come from football, end of story? If it doesn't come from football, it doesn't count? I'm sure that's not what you mean.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 5:54 PM
SBH wrote:expand_more
But you haven't addressed the core fact: more money doesn't bring success.  We spend, what, some 40% more than Kent on B-ball and have facilities that far outclass theirs, yet they have outperformed us for more than a decade. Our last coach - a fairly big-time East Coast assistant and recruiting specialist - was given a 7-year guaranteed deal.  Back in the 1960s, we took a leap of faith and invested in a facility that was and remains the league's best.  All of that investment hasn't led to tangible results in terms of consistent championships and NCAA appearances.  So now you want to bleed an additional 500k off the football program? And yes, I understand you are talking about the league as a whole, but this would affect us as well.  Are we going to cut Frank's staff salaries?  That's a sure way to undermine our significant progress on the gridiron. As to our inability to perform in bowl games, I lay part of the blame on a funds shortage that requires us to send our team home during the break and spend only minimally on pre-bowl practice. We have had to half-ass our approach to these bowl games and we've seen that our team has in generally not been well prepared as a result.


Setting aside the internal contradiction in your response (i.e., giving basketball more money won't help the league's competitive standing, but reducing football budgets will harm us on the gridiron), you keep wanting to focus on an individual school, when I am talking the league as a whole.  I won't disagree that Ohio has failed to maximize its advantages over the rest of the MAC on the basketball court.  But that doesn't mean that adding $500K to the basketball budgets across the entire league wouldn't significantly improve the MAC's competitive standing as a whole. 

If you look at the average basketball budgets per conference, you find that those conferences that spend the most tend to have the best results.  Outside of the 6 BCS conferences, I don't think many would dispute that the Mountain West, A-10, MVC, and West Coast Conferences have generally been the best mid-major conferences over the last few years, with C-USA, the CAA, Horizon, and possibly the MAC in the next tier.  Not surprisingly, that ordering directly corrolates to each conference's average basketball budget:

http://www.midmajority.com/redline

In contrast, given the current competitive and financial landscape in FBS football, the best we can hope for are routine appearances in bottom-tier bowl games.  Sure, if the MAC cuts its football funding it might only send 2 or 3 teams bowling every year instead of the more recent 4 or 5 (in which case we'd actually lose less money).  And perhaps we'd lose those bowl games by even greater margins than we already do.  But once again, who really cares?  No one outside a few die-hard MAC or Sun Belt fans remembers who played in the New Orleans Bowl this year, let alone what the outcome was.  There is simply little to no possibility of the MAC making a significant national impact in football anymore.  The financial disparity between the haves and have-nots in football today is much greater than even just a few short years ago. 

Therefore, given our limited resources, I maintain that the most prudent course of action is to spend the bare minimum on football to maintain FBS status and our ESPN contracts (which I agree probably provides sufficient return over FCS football), and devote the rest to basketball.  Is there a chance that the increased funding wouldn't improve the MAC's basketball performance?  Sure, nothing in life is guaranteed but death and taxes.  But given that basketball features a much smaller financial gap than football between the haves and have-nots, hoops therefore gives us a much better chance of making a national impact. 
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Posted: 3/30/2011 5:56 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
But yet he has. If you go with DOE numbers, he has added $1.3M to basketball over the last 5 years. He has added $370K if you go with Ohio budget numbers.


Sure, but not at the expense of football, which has also benefited from similar increases.  Besides, Schaus doesn't make these decisions himself, he follows the lead of the President and Board of Trustees (for better or worse).


So you want the money to come from football, end of story? If it doesn't come from football, it doesn't count? I'm sure that's not what you mean.


No, that's not what I'm saying.  Ted was suggesting that it must be impossible to cut $500K from most MAC football budgets, since Schaus hasn't done so despite coming from a basketball school.  I was disputing that logic, nothing more. 

In a perfect world both football and basketball would receive significantly increased funding.  But we don't live in a perfect world, and therefore must maximize the limited resources we do have.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 7:56 PM
With the incentives, Ford could make more than Groce and Solich combined.
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Posted: 3/30/2011 9:17 PM
Question:  if we spend the minimum on football, would the boost it gave to basketball give out dividends back to football?  (Let's assume the higher spending turns us into a team like Gonzaga that goes to the tourney year in and year out)

I guess my question is, what happens to football if this plan works?  We have a coaching staff that has been very stable year in and year out, also got a splash assistant coach for linebackers, and a coach who has brought this team to the brink of double digit wins per season and multiple bowl wins (not to the level, but almost there.)  What happens when their low salaries are cut more?
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Posted: 3/31/2011 9:23 AM
Does somebody with more time want to do a regression between basketball budgets and a couple metrics like RPI, Sagarin, KenPom ratings?  I'd be interested to know what the correlation is.  I have a fairly strong belief that it is quite high, but would be curious to know.

Maybe I'll do that at some point after the season is truly complete.
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Posted: 3/31/2011 9:38 AM
Interesting fast fact from the Horizon League commish.  Plays into my Big 6 dominance theory. The available pool of money (shares) for getting into the tourney and advancing is a great source of revenue when looking at the ways the Big 6 augment their annual income.

FACT> when you look at Butler and HL reps to the tourney the last 2 years and their advancement their total number of shares do not equal what the Big East made the first round this year.

As norris so astutely reminded us is that the benefits of each share continue for the next 5 or 6 years.
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Posted: 3/31/2011 1:45 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
Interesting fast fact from the Horizon League commish.  Plays into my Big 6 dominance theory. The available pool of money (shares) for getting into the tourney and advancing is a great source of revenue when looking at the ways the Big 6 augment their annual income.

FACT> when you look at Butler and HL reps to the tourney the last 2 years and their advancement their total number of shares do not equal what the Big East made the first round this year.

As norris so astutely reminded us is that the benefits of each share continue for the next 5 or 6 years.


Providence Journal wrote:expand_more
31 college conferences get money from March Madness.

The top 10 recipients are:
Big East - $23.1 million
ACC - $18.2 million
Big 12 - $17.1 million
Big 10 - $15.3 million
SEC - $15.1 million
PAC-10 - $14.7 million
C-USA - $8.4 million
A10 - $6.4 million
Mountain West - $4 million
Sun Belt - $3.6 million

http://www.projo.com/news/content/NCAA_COLLEGES_MONEY_03-...

Numbers are from last season heading into the tournament, each unit was worth about $222,000.  With the Mason and now 3-bid, GMU-win, VCU-Final Four year, I expect the CAA will be around the very bottom of the top ten for the next distribution.
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Posted: 3/31/2011 3:05 PM
I advocate for tournament money to be evenly spread throughout all of Division I... but few would go for that.
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Posted: 3/31/2011 3:08 PM
Nioe job norris.

When you divide out the share each school gets over the course of yearly payouts the numbers Flomo and Ted are reporting take on a little different meaning in how they handle being autonomous. In light of the Painter debacle yesterday it was discussed today that PU and IU are totally independent entities as fund raising goes. They recieve no student fees for athletics.
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Posted: 3/31/2011 3:27 PM
I would argue wehave not seen the success everyone would like to see in athletics and IMHO it is because we are in the MAC...period.  We have a Big 10 basketball arena but are obviously not Big 10 caliber.  We have an ex-Big 12 football coach but again we are obviously not at that level either. 

One of the consistent facors I see over all the years (even with the money spent and coaches coming and going) is we are still in the same neighborhood and play with the same friends we played with 50 years ago.  And, most all of the friends we have added since the 70s have been at or near the bottom of the standings much of the time (read EMU).  The neighborhood is deteriorating and not getting better.  You wonder why we are sinking with the rest of them?  Try something new and stop repeating the same errors over and over again.
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Posted: 3/31/2011 5:48 PM
Casper71 wrote:expand_more
. . .  The neighborhood is deteriorating and not getting better.  You wonder why we are sinking with the rest of them?  Try something new and stop repeating the same errors over and over again.


True in college athletics.  True in life.  Learn from your mistakes.  
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Posted: 3/31/2011 7:49 PM
Casper71 wrote:expand_more
I would argue wehave not seen the success everyone would like to see in athletics and IMHO it is because we are in the MAC...period.  We have a Big 10 basketball arena but are obviously not Big 10 caliber.  We have an ex-Big 12 football coach but again we are obviously not at that level either. 

One of the consistent facors I see over all the years (even with the money spent and coaches coming and going) is we are still in the same neighborhood and play with the same friends we played with 50 years ago.  And, most all of the friends we have added since the 70s have been at or near the bottom of the standings much of the time (read EMU).  The neighborhood is deteriorating and not getting better.  You wonder why we are sinking with the rest of them?  Try something new and stop repeating the same errors over and over again.


Growing up, my mother always told me "You are judged by the company you keep".  I think this is true in our case; having EMU and Akron in football and Toledo in basketball is a big problem as far as national perception of the MAC works. 

But there's only one problem with the logic.  We are not the cream of the crop in the MAC, and to bolt to an even STRONGER conference, well we'd look like Marshall.  I don't think leaving the MAC is the answer at this point.  Until we prove we're deserving of "worthier" foes, we gotta beat the ones we have at the current time.
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